it took years to start unpacking and rethinking lesya ukrainka, not just like a forest song, but one that actually rethought through antiquity, rethought who ukrainians are, and what is the fate of ukrainians, and through ancient works she rethought them rearranged, retransmitted. novakivskyi based a large part of his, his works, he actually just too, on the revival and very... there are a lot of symbols of the revival, very actually there are a lot of reinterpreted myths that he transferred, which are, well, let's say, for the average of a person in soviet times, it was very harmful, well , it was not possible to bring it into the world context at all, that was it, it was dangerous, it was dangerous, and that is precisely why, if we are talking about him, one of the reasons is the fact that he was prokrastino.

it led to the fact that they cut off everything they could from him and left such a scrap that , well, how at one time we had a scrap of shevchenko, and as a singer of the poor people, well, this was a scrap of a man who could actually paint peasants, and that is, this ethnography is what left the only thing, as it could be in... inscribed at least somehow in the socialist realist if life and if as some certain as some certain element at the same time as the same taras luzynskyi he said there is a big problem with us art critics precisely because, well, in reality we the school of an art critic was in moscow , so what was happening in kyiv at the level of knowledge and art research was very much persecuted and limited and went through the colonial narrative. and that is why it is absolutely

normal that now we have a shortage of such qualified art researchers who could would unpack such strata and reinterpret them in modern and modern realities, so you very well explained his pulsating style, what is it, how do you feel it, what is the pulsating style of novakivskyi? oh, here is a very good story, but... about art critics, i have to say that i was lucky, because the godmother of the novakivskyi space project was the famous art critic diana klitschko, and she just paid attention to what she was saying: look, everyone is alive objects, that is, all of them, both people and plants, and in novakivskyi they have them pulsating circuit, that means it 's a multi-layered one, so you know, we, and we, when we started discussing with her what that could mean, and we explored.

that maybe it is precisely about this pressure of time, and with the beginning of a full-scale war, i realized that it fits very well into this concept, because when we are under strong psychological or physical pressure, then in essence our body is compressed and when compressed begins to vibrate, and this vibration of the body compressed under the press of time, challenge and crisis, and she actually yes... and depicted, and this is his discovery, his style, which is unexplored, not named yet, but it is clearly his, his paintings can be recognized, that is why very quickly, that this is exactly his style, and his his paintings, because of this special contour, and you very correctly say that this feeling, this feeling of the tension of the war, of the uncertainty of what it was, and this is precisely the passer-

by ... the first world war, and before the second world war, and before the second world war, but i mean now actually this work of his angel of death, an impressive work where an angel is standing and holding a young man, the body of a young man, can you tell me about this painting, what it means, what it means to him, what was there, who is the young man, and immediately i will say that this is... one of the works that he dedicated to the sich riflemen, ah, and actually to those soldiers who went to defend, uh, i wanted to say the country, but, not yet, no, not a country, and this work, in fact, it is just, again we take an ancient image, it is an angel of death, who with dignity gives the possibility of transition to someone who... for his

country, to go through this path, it is interesting that , in fact, he is very much about the angel of death, about the river styx, he has a lot of understanding of reflections, and he also has such a story that what is the end is the beginning, and this very transition, it is important for this beginning to have a different energy, a different intention, and it is significant that he dressed the angel of death not just in the usual wings, and he gave him hutsul clothes, if... actually just hutsul clothes, which flutters like wings behind, behind this angel, and as if it gives respect to the special feature, because angels wear clothes, and they don't wear hutsul clothes, but it's like a certain connection between respect to this dignity, which

it has in itself this is this warrior, and this is dignity as a connection with the roots for which you stood, and then this. is in transition and it is being built further into the future life of both the deceased and the following generations. listen, this means that he had a very good understanding of world culture and art, it gave this was he educated at the karakiv academy of arts, or was there something else where he acquired this knowledge? there is an interesting point that the memoirs of ivan golubovsky, there is actually one of his biographers, it must be said. his brother, who was worried about golubovsky, who was as he was named, and ivan was actually just his brother, and in these memories, he mentions odesa,

as novakivskyi talks about odesa, and this ode, it is not even krakowska yet academy, this is odessa, in which he spent almost all the money he earned on books, ugh, and... and there one of the scenes is when, that means, he is portraying, portraying the very family that invited them, and in the process they consider what else he has there, and there is a lakoon, and actually he says that i study, i study mythology, i study michelangelo, i study the renaissance itself and i try to reproduce and capture this art through getting to know it. and to learn to follow this and it was important for him even before the krakow academy. since you have already talked about odessa, i will ask you now about studying in odessa and about study in krakow. you know, i was interested in the fact that the study in odessa was

actually paid for by a local forestry engineer, and i understand that this is from podillia, yes, who obviously saw the talent. in this child, and this child, 16 years old , he also sends him to odessa to study at the workshop of pylyp klymenko, you are actually talking about this family, yes and no, no, the family was different, he lived with another family in odessa, well this is such a story that before he went to odessa, he was already studying, and when he came to odessa, he already came with certain knowledge, with a certain equal... artistic, and klymenko accepted him as someone who could earn for himself, and therefore he painted portraits in order to earn a living. yes, of course, that means it's not anymore, he was not such a simple child, a child who is not ready at all, and i'm also curious that

the bzozowski family also allocated a scholarship for studying in krakow, that is, his father's employers. who was a forester, yes, of this family, that is, in both situations, i remembered, you know what, little myron franko, franko's story, yes, when, when someone notices, when the child luckily, someone notices the talent, and it is the same with davychenko, with shevchenko, and we are there with many, let's say so, if you go through a lot of names of ukrainian sculpture, history. it was repeated that it was an exceptional talent of a child from a not very rich family there, which was so exceptionally manifested and strengthened by the charisma or stubbornness in my case, my great-grandfather, or actually just his stubbornness, because he told dad

the forester, who had already prepared for him his destiny, at a young age he had a vision when he met god, and god told him that he, well, you will be an artist. and he, as they say, is like a bird there, it’s as if there’s a knock-knock-knock, knock-knock-knock, and he actually persuaded his dad to do just that, and in the end they let him go back to odessa, they just let him go to learn it and then he returned, because dad lost his job , he had to go to work as a clerk, but then, when the situation stabilized a little, he was sent to odesa right there, then they returned back, and a teacher from kraków, from kraków, remember or from the krakow academy, but from krakow, and he simply saw oleksa's talent, and he too time after time, time after time... he persuaded, it was also a very difficult decision, he persuaded the brzezowskis to give him a scholarship to send him to

the krakow academy, and then in kraków , he begins a conflict of identities , as far as i understand, yes, please tell me about it, well, i would say that it was not so much a conflict as a choice, although you may be right that this is exactly the situation here about the moment due to some conflict. that is, through confrontation, when bryzowski was actually given a scholarship, then, when he was accepted, they looked at him and bet on a very promising polish artist who could stand next to the names of great polish artists. he is the only one who graduated from the ukrainian constellation of the krakow academy with a gold scholarship, which gave him the right to study at any university in europe. and he had brilliant teachers there who were absolutely bull. yes, yes, and that, but the scholarship actually was also with full

maintenance, there was only one right, a rule one rule sounded like this: you become a polish artist, and at this moment, i understand that they pushed, pushed, and because until a certain period he even signed paintings with two conditions, sometimes he could sign in ukrainian, sometimes he could sign in polish, that is, this game, she... she was, well , my great-grandmother, she was a polish drunkard, she has polish, polish blood, polish roots, and eh, that is, it seems to me, it was very about the fact that he was probably overpowered by this the desire to make him a polish artist, and he at that moment, he did his own decision to resist and m most likely that it was eh... his talent and this ability to be himself, this connection with identity

played a role in his partnership with sheptytskyi and the subsequent precisely those projects that they created together therefore, they met before 1923, yes, that is , on the 23rd, shaptytskyi offered him to found an art school, even earlier, earlier, it's just that this school was already founded in 1923, yes. how they met, please tell me, oh, i don’t remember the date now, but they met earlier precisely because of the golubovskys, they got to know each other through golubovsky , because golubovsky was a lawyer, yes, a lawyer, yes, he was a lawyer, a lawyer, a lawyer, and in fact, they met oleksya in a very strange way, because when he graduated from the academy, he ended up near krakow , well, i don’t know, there in... bucha, relatively speaking, he moved from kyiv to bucha, and in bucha he actually just lay there,

lying sick, and a doctor was asked to stop by and take a look, and this doctor , he simply saw his paintings, and realized that he should definitely invest in it, and he put him on his feet, and the doctor actually turned out to be the husband of golobovsky 's sister, and that's how they became friends, and that's how they then he essentially in... through golobovsky, they then ended up in the cedar chambers of sheptytskyi, which were in the carpathians, because the carpathians were then it was very fashionable to go to the dacha, in fact they had such and such dachas, such places, and they met , discussed, there were very such in such an interesting, intelligent environment, and actually just as if they had met cheptytsky there for the first time, then when she was big personal exhibition of nowakivskyi in krakow. sheptytsky was actually at this exhibition, he saw this exhibition, and i

think that it was just him, he thought to himself that when we lost the treaty of versailles, after the treaty of versailles , ukraine could not get its separate independence , yes, let me remind you that this is the collapse of the empire in our country, while poland could, if it had done so, exactly ukraine. could not prove to him the right to an independent country. and there is a version that actually sheptytskyi realized that there was not enough support. in poland there was a reliance on the nobility, in ukraine there was not enough reliance on the elite , there were not enough highly educated people, who would not just be highly educated, but would have wealth and be able to influence society sufficiently, and that is, what we are actually dealing with now we meet, but history repeats itself very much, and he then thought that

it was necessary to create a school that would essentially be... not just like an art academy, but one that would, well, a renaissance man, i would say so, create from those people who could to come and take on this choice , to be ukrainians, i am impressed by how much sheptytskyi was, he understood this need so deeply that he invested money in it, so he allocated scholarships for later, when this school is already you... yes , then he invested scholarships in children, there were many children, how many people were studying there, about 100, about 100 people, and he, this is him, he also went to the carpathians, actually their trips to the carpathians, this is also syptysky, even more systematic , and when they say that there is a whisper patronus, then, well, that is, first of all, this is a myth,

that sheptytskyi was a patron of novakivskyi, it was not so, and secondly,... sheptytskyi , in fact, he created systems that could later support art, culture and education, and it very often happened that these were not his funds , and it was a certain system that actually helped, well, there and there with studies, with trips and so on, yes, because, for example, when they went to plein air, because plein air is when artists go out into nature and paint , they actually paint in nature. novokivskyi brought this fashion to lviv, he took his students to nature, because well, if you are making a photographic story, then you can sit there in the privacy of your room and draw. he said that if you want to really catch the spirit, and learn to catch the true spirit of what you are depicting, you have to go and draw, and it’s like leonardo da vinci,

he went there with a notebook, and they did the same, he taught his students in the same way and did so himself , that is... this is a lot of sketching in the search for that, but how to reveal this story of this soul, this from the imprint of truth, and well on the other hand, it is the creation of a cultural environment, because i understood that a community had already been created there, and that was the story, that there were, well , the taras shevchenko scientific society, it was one story, there was enlightenment, and there were another group, sheplinskyi contributed to its creation. different groups, because the story is there, that is, he, for example , had a bank, yes, a bank was created, the bank gave the opportunity to lend to small businesses, yes, but then, when small businesses began to stand on their feet, they laughed that they all started to pay social tax, voluntary social tax, and this voluntary social tax, it was what helped

all this grow, the ukrainian secret university is a phenomenal story, an institution that stood solely on the payments of people like us as volunteer payments, yes , which were dropped there, this is an amazing story about the ukrainian secret university, unfortunately, we do not have much time to talk about it, but if you could in a few words, i am sure that many people don't know about the ukrainian secret university, if you could tell me just a few words to say, because i understand that in the ukrainian secret university, novakivskyi is just as important. in the department of painting, as it is called , in fact, in fact, the story was that at first he became a professor of the kyiv academy of arts, and as a professor of the kyiv academy of arts, he became a co-founder of the ukrainian secret university, yes, that is, he teaches here, what years, come on, let's say what it is, what year it is, kyiv

academy, kyiv academy - that's pymonenko there, isn't it? part of those people who came, well, from central ukraine, from one coast to the other, well, for example, i was not surprised that vrony taught screenwriting at this school. and pyotr kholodnyi, he came to read his own sacred art, ugh, and the relationship, it seems to me, is also an unexplored story,

how much this relationship in general affected the way the partnership between unr and zunr was built, but i am sure that it was relations between the kyiv academy and the secret university and secret university and this environment in general, and if it was mixed, mixed, that which was not just halychyna or just kharkov or just... kyiv, but it was these mixed environments that allowed them to communicate with each other and build human, human good relations, let's finish about the secret university, it was, it was really secret, hundreds and hundreds of people studied there, the polish authorities persecuted and yet it functioned and yet and yet it was like that, well let's start with that , that he in fact, it just started with the fact that right after the treaty of versailles... the rules for minorities there were changed, the ukrainian minority was in lviv, such a very minority and also quite a passive

minority, and in fact the lviv university was forbidden to teach in the ukrainian language, and the students left in protest, then the professor supported it, because they were also forbidden to teach in ukrainian, and it was essentially an act of protest, if so briefly, an act of protest, when yes... they singled it out separately and created it specifically for contributions, voluntary contributions volunteer, civic, they made this university , they hid for several years in a row, they were really, they were followed and followed by the local police there, actually followed, and there were checks, and this was in different places, and in apartments, and in and in st. george's cathedral, and somewhere else in novakivskyi's school, which actually was a part of it. of this university, which was located in the building that is now opposite saturday, yura cathedral, where there is now a memorial museum, and the meetings were actually held there, and

meetings as well as learning and this place was given there in order for this university to exist, it's amazing, for me, it's just an amazing story about about the secret university and how or are there any memories that it was for for alex novakivskyi, that is... how he talked about it , i didn't find it about the secret university, i can't say, but the fact that it was very important for him, he was, he saw himself as a guide for the youth, according to sheptytskyi, according to his reviews, i understand that he was not just a guide, he was a role model, that is, he is a person who, as a self-made man, he was able to make himself and he was able to be ukrainian, he chose to be ukrainian.

to be a successful ukrainian artist was almost unrealistic for him, he actually started the creative industry. active industry, because he showed that you can make money not only from paintings, but you can develop there on postcards, on caricatures, and this is what they, they did with students, this is actually one story, another story, when after plein air they came back, they made small ones exhibitions in the cities, and you could come and choose the paintings you want there, and in this way they were engaged in enlightenment in small towns so that, well, those who belong to the auto business also raise their level a little, well beauty and aesthetics, understanding what aestheticism is. tell me, please, which of the famous artists graduated from the novakivska school, who, who do we

know? uhu, well, i will name just a few names, and this, we can say, peace, this is roman selskyi, and, actually, just like that, he is not the one who studied for a long time, but he started... he went through corrections, and then he stayed, sviatoslav gordynskyi, he is a very famous artist, writer and poet, and this is also such a vivid story of how the youth actually developed around novakivskyi in this environment, because it was not only about art, we can say, although i know that there is a controversial issue, but yakiv hnizdovskyi is one of the most famous ukrainian artists in the american field, his paintings hung in the white house, and he was also a researcher

of art . and the artist, and myron levinsky, this we actually just, well, he is also a very famous artist who developed, how independent, independent such in painting, very interesting, bright such a path he had and very successful, edward kozak, he actually just interesting that he took this caricature line , and this is what he will create very qualitatively. how many, i think now, you are counting, i think how many of these people ended up abroad, yes, that is, how many ukraine, well , lost, how, how many artists not, but how many of its citizens who have, but how little be a strong school and a strong impulse to be ukrainian, that all of them left a ukrainian signature for them, they left a

ukrainian signature. that is, there is an american of ukrainian origin, a canadian of ukrainian origin, right? i will ask you again, you mentioned that the fact that sheptytskyi supported novakivskyi is a myth, but do i understand correctly that this villa, wonderful, where, where later there was a museum, and there is, yes, novakivskyi, it was given by shaptytskyi to novakivskyi, no, it's not true, yes, my god, how handsome. interesting and many, many myths, well, first of all, i don't say no support, i wouldn’t say i didn’t support, from my point of view i would finance, that’s how this villa actually was, it was really bought by sheptytskyi, but it was also donated not to novakivskyi, but donated to the ukrainian national museum, which he created, yes,

of course , he paid for the school, that is, for this school premises and for the accommodation that was nearby, he paid, he paid with his paintings, and this was one of the reasons why he had a very close relationship with the museum, and he never once never had a personal exhibition in lviv during his life, because vintsitsky , who was invited by sheptytsky to become the director of the museum, tried to... well, as an enterprising man, he tried to constantly undercut the price of paintings, and since novakivsky, he knew that he was in favor of it, well, that is, it was an opportunity to keep him the price for living, and in addition to living , well, in maintaining the school as well, because very often it turned out that those who came there, they came, well, let's say this, it was often a story when novakivskyi was there and fed, and

provided, and was. were different, and that's why it was important to him, and his, his paintings were expensive, and he kept that brand of expensive painting, but at the same time, if he didn't keep that brand of expensive painting, then his students wouldn't become those successful ones either, and wouldn't be able to feel that a painting can be sold expensively, listen, and what does it mean when diana kolychko says that novakivskyi is the most expensive ukrainian artist, what does she mean, and actually this is exactly what she means. a very important topic that we have not yet touched on with you, but which i am terribly interested in, is your relationship with great-grandfather, so it's not easy for you at all , this initiative of yours, novakiv space and in general your interest and your work, it's not

easy. so, this is your family history, when , when you started a relationship with novakivskyi , how did you find out about it, and in general, do you have any personal, do you have any family, so stories about him, or everything you know , this is mostly from the biography, actually already written, or do you have any family stories about him, huh? well, first of all, it must be said that there was a lot of information hidden and confidential, because sheptytskyi , as i said, was not a patron, he was very friendly with novakivskyi to such an extent, that is , they were friends, and they idolized him so much that when novakivskyi died, sheptytskyi actually adopted his children.