regime as an enemy people, as an enemy nation, and actually our book clearly shows this, that is , these are 100 documents selected from the 1930s to the 1991s, the last documents are actually documents about rehabilitation, this is, as it were, the final moment of when the repressed were, on the one hand, rehabilitated, and on the other, these documents about rehabilitation, they clearly testify to the falsification of all these... and you have already visited the czech republic with this book, presented it, what was the reaction, actually, the presentation was first in kyiv and next week we made a presentation in prague, there was a very, very good response to the actual presentation in prague, there were representatives and descendants, or rather ukrainian czechs, those czechs who later returned from ukraine to czechoslovakia, to the czech republic. and for them this book

is also important because it is actually a book about their relatives, about their ancestors, very often about those about whom they did not have any information, and what happened to them in the soviet union. well, you study the past as a historian, i have a little touch with the present, and judging by the latest czech initiatives, in particular of the czech government and the president, we can say that the discussions between our countries are at the highest level. equal and even so historical, extremely, extremely important, i would say, fundamentally. and as for such a repressive mechanism as deportation. we see that little has changed in the russian federation, in russian minds, and they continue to do it, they do it with ukrainians in the temporarily occupied territories, they do it with ukrainian children, and this is a particularly sensitive topic, and... why

deportations , i.e. what is the idea of ​​resettling, mix it up, make it so that a person is separated from the territory, a native of which he is? well, when we talk about deportations, deportations for russia are actually another additional tool of war. that is, when we look at the history when russia and the russian empire used deportations. in fact, it has always been an element of military operations, an instrument of war. at first, it was also used against the ukrainian vaziks, against the poles after the polish uprisings, when in this way they tried to completely destroy any possibility of resistance in the future, and it was such, as it were, this element of establishing full control over the occupied, killed territories, during the soviet era. er, the soviet occupation,

the soviet union, in fact, this tool was extremely widely used, it was extremely, so well worked out, with a huge number of instructions, these are the documents that we also keep, and actually, when we talk even about ukrainians, and about the czechs, and about the poles, about the germans, even about the same jews, the crimean tatars, greeks, bulgarians, that is, the list of those who were deported can be continued extremely widely, and in fact, it was also used against all of them, thus they actually tried to either prepare for... war, or during the war to clear the territory of those who they considered unfriendly peoples, unfriendly nations, and there were extremely many of them, and today russia continues to use deportations as this very tool of war, of course, they are trying, unfortunately, to improve it in pieces, that is, that is how they take that the experience that was already gained by the kremlin and its predecessors earlier, and they are applying it in a new way, today, in fact, when... bodba

is going for the very existence, if ukrainianness, ukrainians, and the war is going for the ukrainian identity, i.e. one of such goals, in addition to these military goals, military goals have also become the goal of destroying identity, but as soon as we are, no matter how much we look at these deportations, that is, it is an instrument of war, and in fact we are currently preparing just one of our next books, i hope will be released this year with colleagues from poland, which actually. concerns the deportation from western ukraine in 1940-41, and precisely such projects are extremely important for us, because they give us the opportunity to talk with our neighbors and partners on the historical experience, which, unfortunately, is familiar to them and to us, and we hope, in fact, that these books are not only academic publications for researchers, but also a reminder for experts, for politicians, for society, what can we expect from russia? and

that today ukraine holds back at the cost of its own victims, at the cost of our own war, that in fact we do not give russia the opportunity to start the next offensive, and the same czech republic or poland. unfortunately, as soon as ukraine, god forbid, falls, they will be next, i hope that this will never happen, and it is very nice that if the czechs and czech politicians understand this, and actually this is a very good example, when the czechs having experience is very similar to ours, they understand why it is worth supporting ukraine today. well , we understand that different countries see things differently. level of historical discussion, in some countries use the historical debate as their political goals, and in order to generally form some vector of foreign policy, very often this applied at least earlier to poland, as now, is there progress in your

opinion, at least from what politicians say, well, progress is not obvious, that is , of course the situation here is very different when we talk about... and when we talk about actual scientific cooperation, in scientific cooperation we have , in principle, everything is adequate, that is, yes, we have disputes, of course, that is, we have different assessments to different events, but at the same time, if there are certain methods that unite us, which, in principle, are the same and identical for scientists from any country, and when we actually talk about the cooperation of our archival institution with the polish archives, then this cooperation. in fact, since 1996, that is , in fact, two years after the creation of the archive, this cooperation began, a joint working commission was created, which continues to work, and this year the book about deportations is actually the 11th volume of the joint series. that is, in principle, when we talk about such

a discussion between specialists, professionals in their field, archivists, historians, this discussion is not only possible, it is actually necessary, and it is something that should be built on. all our discussions about complex historical events of the past, at a time when it starts to enter the political plane, well, here, unfortunately, there is some abuse of assessments and interpretations, regarding deportations, and a few words about the native name crimea, the deportation of the crimean tatar people, and we understand like this that when we trace the process itself. deportations, that is the 40s, we trace exactly how mainland ukraine and crimea built their ties, not only legal, but actual, and when we trace what the relations between

crimea and the russian federation were in general in the 20th century, do we have all the necessary array of documents and data, in particular archival ones, in order to... assess the scale of this catastrophe, or after all, when we talk about the deportation of the crimean tatars, we have to search, and in a good way, we should have somewhere in russian federation, including the kgb. unfortunately, yes, that is, if we are actually talking about an assessment of the scale and general trends, then we rather have this material, but if we are already talking about such detailed and deeper studies, then unfortunately yes, when we are actually in a situation with deportations , here you need access to... to russian archives, and the situation in russia and ukraine is now radically opposite, and this is another such vivid example of how if we are definitely not one people, today in ukraine there is an unprecedented opportunity to work with archives, even despite

the state of martial law, the archives are open, they work, they are constantly increasing, digitizing, documents are posted on their electronic archives, where they exist, where... they exist, you can apply and get these documents online, that is, in principle, today ukraine has a unique chance, in fact, thanks to its openness, thanks to a new approach to working with archival documents, to contribute to this decolonization of knowledge about the past, not only ours as ukraine, not only crimea, but in general of the russian empire, that colonial situation that was created and all those myths that exist, including around crimea, yes, that is, because in fact crimea is... such, unfortunately, a good example of such settler colonization , when the native population was actually pushed out and replaced by russians and those who were loyal to the empire, and

it is important to talk about these moments in order to explain that crimea was never russia. i always worry when we talk about serious historical documents. you know when putin sits down to talk about the next rurik, excuse me for telling you, i always think, well , ukrainian scientists have already knocked him down 300 times... these theses are worn out and he can't learn any new ones, but nevertheless, i understand that their goal, in addition to our population, our territories, us as a state, there is also our historical memory, how much have we lost due to the occupation of a large part of ukraine in the context of our archives? unfortunately, so we currently have losses, some of them are irreversible, some of them i hope not, that is, we lost those what if... archives that are in the temporarily occupied territories, but i still hope that we, that we will be able to return these archival

documents and these archival funds after the liberation of both the territories and our fellow citizens, and it will be possible to work with them, and in fact, when he says, when already today there is a discussion about the process of reparations, and here it is also important to talk about, including, archives, maybe, that is, where archival collections are. and lost funds are irretrievably lost, it is possible to say that these archives should be replaced by those archive funds that are stored in the former imperial center, which i hope will soon die forever, and in fact, in this way , generalized information is still stored there, since either the first copies of documents or, in general, general reports were collected there from the periphery, that is , there is information there, and these archives, archival funds may be returned to ukraine. well, actually, as part of the reparations process, it is also worth talking about hundreds, at least

several hundreds of funds that were taken out of the territory of ukraine, starting there in the 18-19 century, including in the 20th century, and these are also the funds that should be returned to ukraine, generally from russia. in addition, it is also important to talk about the fact that when we talk about the need for decolonization of scientific knowledge and those discussions that take place among historians, then access and the opportunity to work. in all former enslaved nations with the archives of the former imperial center is extremely important so that we can debunk all those myths that were created by the russian empire or its reincarnations and spread maximum in the world, and today, when you go to, say , the library of congress in the united states and take a book about russia, you will read there about ukraine, about georgia, about belarus, about kazakhstan, while none of us are russia has never been, moreover, if we look at modern russia, which has... in a fake prefix a federation, it is not a federation, and there are a huge number of peoples who are renewed,

and whose stories are not told at all, yes, that is, access to these archives must be open, and we can guarantee this access to be sure we, maybe someone else from the shaved peoples, but i think we are definitely, i understand that the documents that can be touched are artifacts, but nevertheless the level of... digitization before the large-scale invasion, he allowed us to keep, partly yes, unfortunately, no, unfortunately, of course, not in such a volume, as it would be desired, at the same time, the actual full-scale invasion has significantly accelerated the processes of digitization. mr. andriy, i thank you very much for this work, i urge you to join the work of the branch state archive of the security service of ukraine be interested, ask questions, they answer everything, he said. khrystyna yatskiv,

we will definitely update our conversations with the best and most expert guests on the most relevant topics. be with us! greetings, good evening, my name is myroslava berchuk, this is a self-titled program, a joint project of ukrainian foam and the espresso tv channel. today we will return the name, the name of the great ukrainian artist of the world class, oleksa novakivskyi, the artist who was born in podilla, studied in odesa, in kraków. art academy glorified lviv and all of ukraine. today, my guest is dzvenislava novakivska,

the great-great-granddaughter of oleks novakivskyi and the initiator of the novakivsky special project. congratulations. congratulations. thank you for the invitation. dzvenoslav, thank you for finding the opportunity to come to us and talk about oleks novakivskyi. i'll start with one phrase that resonates with me terribly. this is a phrase. a collector who said this: i hate the expression novakivskyi is a talented ukrainian artist, he is a world artist. level, no one put him on a pedestal put, except for ourselves, i think that this can be said not only about novakivskyi, but also about many ukrainian artists who are misunderstood and under-seen by us, yes, tell me, please, what is the uniqueness and value of novakivskyi, and why is he still not

on a pedestal, in your opinion, i think it will be easier with the first, more difficult with the second, but... why these, why the value? well, we know all the world names, this is klimt, monet, van gogh, and these are the people who essentially helped world civilization, world art to move from such a monochrome, photographic art, which was more about photographing reality, go to a completely different world, where there is an understanding of oneself in this life through. art, and this is how various currents were born, in particular, impressionism and expressionism, and then, on these currents, there was already an avant-garde, which began to move further, that is, in essence, what industrialization in the economy was very important, and and whoever fell out of this process, he became a third world country there,

and art is the same as industrialization, it was important if the marker that a country that was able to... give birth to a rethinking through art could actually be considered civilized, and in fact novakivskyi, who made a leap from classical art, from symbolic art, and made an independent leap into impressionism, and then into expressionism, and that 's exactly what he did with the students and the environment that he taught, we can say, it's actually good for us. to equality with other european countries, where this also happened, so therefore world class metz, and why he is still not perceived as such by most people in ukraine, once again here is still a mystery to me, yes, but

if we look at the history of other classics, because in fact he is a classic, and how much do we need was years in order to start unpacking and reimagining lesya ukrainka, not just like a forest song, but the one who actually rethought through antiquity, rethought who ukrainians are, what is the fate of ukrainians, and through ancient works she rethought them rearranged, retransmitted. novakivski, a large part of his, his works, he actually just too, based a lot on the revival. there are symbols of rebirth, in fact, there are a lot of reinterpreted myths that he carried, which are, let’s say, for the average person in soviet times, it was very harmful, uh, it was impossible to establish a world context at all, it was, it was dangerous , it was dangerous, and that's

exactly why, if we're talking about him, one of the reasons is that he was procrastinated. by the soviet authorities, i'm sorry, he went through a procrustean tower, and this is actually just this procrustean tower, it led to the fact that they cut off everything they could from him and left such a cut, as in our time there was a cut of shevchenko, and as a singer of the poor people , well, it was a fragment of a person who actually could draw peasants, and that is, this ethnography is the only thing that was left, how it could be written. not at least somehow in a socialist realist if life and if as some certain as some certain element at the same time as the same taras luzynskyi he said that there is a big problem with us art historians precisely because, well , we are actually a school of art historians, it was in moscow , so what was happening in kyiv at the level of knowledge and art research was very much

persecuted and limited and it went through the colonial narrative. and therefore it is absolutely normal that now we have a lack of such educated art researchers who could unpack such strata and reinterpret them in modern realities, so you very well explained his pulsating style, what it is, how do you do it do you feel the pulsating style of novakivskyi? oh, here is a very good story, because... about art critics, i have to say that i was lucky, because the godmother of the novakivskyi space project was the famous art critic diana klitschko, and she just paid attention to what she was saying: look, everyone. all living objects, that is, everyone, both people and plants, and in novakivskyi, they have a pulsating contour, which means that it is

a multi-layered one, you know, and when we started discussing with her what it could be about mean, but we investigated that this is possible and it's about this pressure of time, and with the onset of full-scale war, i realized that it fits very well into this concept, because when we are under great pressure.' logical or physical, in essence our body is compressed and when compressed it begins to vibrate, and this vibration of the body compressed under the pressure of time, challenge and crisis, and it is actually he depicted it in such a way, and this is his discovery, his style, which is not researched, not named yet, but it is clearly, well, his, his paintings can be recognized precisely because very quickly that it exactly his style, and his. his paintings through this special contour, and you are very right to say that this feeling, this feeling of the tension of the war, of the uncertainty of what it was,

and this is exactly the trick that goes through and works during the first world war, so before the second world, and before the second world, but now i mean this particular work of his, the angel of death, an impressive work... where the angel is standing and holding a young man, the body of a young man, can you tell me about this painting that she means that she means to him that there was, who is this young man? ah, i'll say right away that this is one of the works he dedicated to the sich snipers, ah, and actually to those soldiers who went to protect uh , i wanted to say the country, but... no, no, no country, and this work, it is exactly that, again we take an ancient image, it is an angel of death, who with dignity

gives the opportunity of transition to someone who fought for his country, to go through this path, it is interesting that in essence he generally talks a lot about the angel of death, about the river styx, very... he has a lot of insight into reflections, and he also has such a story that what is the end is the beginning, and this very transition, it is important so that this beginning, it has a different energy, a different intention, and it is significant that he clothed the angel of death not just in the usual wings, but he gave him hutsul wings. precisely gotsul clothing, which flutters like wings behind, behind this angel, and as if it pays tribute to the very peculiarity, because angels wear clothes, and gustrul

clothes are not worn even more, but it is as such a certain connection between respect for this dignity, which this warrior has in himself, and this dignity as a connection with the roots for which you stood, and then these roots. is in transition and it is being built, further built into the future life, both of the one who died, and of the following generations. listen, this means that he had a very good understanding of world culture and art, this education was provided by the karaków academy of arts, or was there something else where he acquired this knowledge, and an interesting point is that the memories of ivan golubovsky are there actually one biographer that... a biographer, a person, who is his friend, yes, well, it is almost like a brother, as vangoga was his brother, who worried about him, and also, in fact, there was ivan golubovsky, who was like the named

brother, and in these memories, he mentions odesa, with how novakivskyi talks about odesa, and this ode, it’s not even the krakow academy, it’s odesa, in which he spent almost all the money he earned on books, uh, and... and there’s one scene when you mean he portrays, portrays exactly the family to which i invited them, and they are in the process they consider what he still has there, and there is a lacoon, and actually he says that i study, study mythology, i study michelangelo, i study the renaissance itself and try to reproduce and capture this art, to know it and... learn to follow this and it was important for him even before the krakow academy , since you have already talked about odessa, i will ask you now about studying in odessa and about

studying in... a local forestry engineer, i understand that it is from podillia, yes , who obviously saw talent in this child, and this one he sends his 16-year-old child to study in odesa, in the studio of pylyp klymenko, you are talking about this family. well, this is the story that before he went to odessa, he was already studying, and when he came to odessa, he already came with certain knowledge and a certain artistic level, and klymenko accepted him as someone who could earn for himself , and that's why he painted portraits in order to earn a living, yes, of course, that is, it is no longer... no

, he was not such a simple child, a child who is no longer ready at all, and i also wonder what a scholarship to study in krakow was also provided by the bzozowski family, that is, the employers of his father, who was a forester, so in this family, that is, in both situations, i remembered, you know, that little myron franko, franko’s story, yes, when, when someone notices, when the child is lucky. and someone notices the talent and is given a way and yes, the same is true for shevchenko, but we are there with many, let’s say this, if we go through a lot of ukrainian names from culture, history repeated itself and that it was an exceptional talent of a child from a not very rich family there which was so exceptional

manifested and enhanced by charisma. or stubbornness in my case in my great-grandfather 's stubbornness, because he told dad the forester, who had already prepared his destiny for him, at a young age he had a vision when he met with god, and god told him that he you will be an artist, and he, as they say, there if it was like a bird, it was like there was a knock-knock-knock, knock-knock-knock, and he actually persuaded his dad to do this, and in the end they let him go before odessa, they just let him go to study. and then he came back because dad lost his job, he had to go to work in a clerk's office, but then, when the situation stabilized a little, he was sent to odesa just there, then they came back and a teacher from kraków, from kraków, i don't remember whether from the kraków academy, came to the dobzyzowskis. but from kraków, and he simply saw oleksa's talent, and he also time and time again, time and time again he...

he said, it was also a very difficult decision, he persuaded the brzezowskis to give him a scholarship to send him to the krakow academy, and then to krakow he has a conflict of identities, as far as i understand, yes, please tell me about it, well, i would say that it was not a conflict as a choice, although it may be right, that actually here is a situation about a moment due to a conflict of some kind, that is.. .. because of the confrontation, when brzezowski was actually given a scholarship, then when he was accepted, they looked at him and bet on a very promising polish artist who could stand next to the names of great polish artists. he is the only one who graduated from the ukrainian pleiades in krakow academy with a gold scholarship, which gave him the right to actually study at any university in europe, and he

had brilliant teachers there who were absolutely amazing, yes. yes, and that, but the scholarship was actually also with full maintenance, there was only one right, one rule, and the rule sounded like this: you become a polish artist, and at this moment i understand that they squeezed, squeezed, and , because until a certain period he even signed pictures in two languages, sometimes he could sign in ukrainian, sometimes he could sign in polish, that is, this game, it... it was, well, my great-grandmother, she was a polish drinker, she has polish, polish blood, polish roots, right? uh, that is , it seems to me, it was very much about the fact that he was probably overwhelmed by this desire to make him a polish artist, and he at that moment, he made his own decision to resist and -