the brilliant teachers were absolutely despicable, yes, yes, and that, but the scholarship itself was also fully funded, there was only one right, one rule, and the rule sounded like this: you become a polish artist, and at this moment i understand , that they repressed, repressed, and because until a certain period he even signed paintings in two languages, sometimes in ukrainian, sometimes in polish. to sign, that is, this game, she, she was, well , my great-grandmother, she was a polish drinker, she has polish, polish blood, polish roots, yes, that is , it seems to me, it was very much about the fact that he was probably overwhelmed by this desire to make him a polish artist, and he at that moment, he made his own decisions, resistance, and... after all, that it was his talent and

this ability to be himself, this connection with identity, that played a role in his partnership with shiplytskyi and the subsequent projects that they created together. so they met even before 1923, yes, that is, on the 23rd - it was sheptytskyi who offered him to found an art school, even earlier, earlier, it's just that this school was already... established in 1923, since they met, please tell me, oh, i don't remember the date now, but they met earlier, it was through golubovsky, they met through golubovsky, because bolubovsky was a lawyer , he was a lawyer, yes, he was an advocate lawyer, a lawyer, and actually, it was precisely with oleksya that they met in a very strange way, because when he graduated from the academy, he was under the influence of crack. well, i don’t know bucha there, relatively

speaking, he came to bucha from kyiv, and in bucha he actually just lay there sick, and one doctor was asked to stop by and take a look, and this doctor simply saw his paintings and realized that he should definitely invest in him, and he put him on his feet, and the doctor actually turned out to be the husband of golobovsky's sister, and that's how they became friends , and so they later... he, in fact, through golobovsky, they then ended up in the cedar chambers of sheplitskyi, which were in the carpathians, because in the carpathians it was very fashionable to go to the country at that time, in fact, they had such and such country houses, and they met, discussed, very like that there were in a very interesting and intelligent environment, and actually it was just there and there that they met sheptytskyi for the first time, then when there was a big person...

nowokivskyi's exhibition in kraków, sheptytskyi actually was at this exhibition, he saw her in this exhibition , and i think that just he, in him, he thought to himself, so that when we actually lost the treaty of versailles, after the treaty of versailles, ukraine was not able to obtain its separate independence, yes, let me remind you that this is our disintegration empire, at the same time poland from... was able to do it to him, actually precisely because ukraine was not able to prove to him its right to an independent country, there is a version that sheptytsky actually thought that there was not enough support, in poland there was support on the nobility, in ukraine there was not enough support on the elite, there were not enough highly educated people who would were not just highly educated, but would have wealth and could influence sufficiently. on

society, and that is, what we are actually facing now, and history repeats itself very much, and he then thought that it was necessary to make her school, which was essentially would not just be like an art academy, but one that would be a person of the renaissance era, i would say so, to create from those people who could come and take this choice to be ukrainians, uh... it strikes me that sheptytskyi he understood this need so deeply that he invested money in it, he allocated scholarships for later, when this school had already emerged, yes, he invested scholarships in children, there were many children, how many people studied there ? about 100, about 100 people, and he, it's him, the same he is in the carpathians, actually their trips to the carpathians, that too. first of all, it is a myth that sheptytskyi was

a patron of novakivskyi, it was not so. and secondly, shiptytskyi, in fact, he created systems that could later support art, culture and education, and very often it was the case that these were not his funds, but it was a certain system that helped exactly, well here and there with studies, with trips and so on, and because, for example, when they went out to the plein air, because the plein air is when artists go out into nature and paint. and draw actually just in nature. novukivskyi brought this fashion to lviv, he took his students out into nature, because, well, if you make a story photographically, then you can sit there in the privacy of your room and draw. he said that if you want to really catch the spirit,

and learn to catch the true spirit of what you are depicting, you must go and draw, and this is how leonardo vinci went there with a notebook, and they did the same, he taught yes... i used to do this to my students myself, that is, it is a lot of sketches in the search for that, and how to reveal this story of this soul, this imprint of truth, and well , on the other hand, it is the creation of a cultural environment, because i understood that a community had already been created there, here, that was the story, that there were , well, the scientific society named after taras shevchenko, it was one story, there was education, and there were other... groups. sheplitskyi contributed to the creation of various groups, because the history is there, that is, he, for example, had a bank, yes, a bank was created , the bank gave the opportunity, lent to small businesses, and, but when small businesses started to get back on their feet there, then they laughed that they all started paying

social tax, voluntary social tax, and this voluntary social tax, it was what helped all this to grow, ukrainian secrets. this is a phenomenal story of an institution that stood solely on the payments of people like us as volunteer payments, yes, which were scattered there, it is an amazing story about the ukrainian secret university, unfortunately, we do not have much time to talk about it, but if you could in several in words, i'm sure that many people don't know about the ukrainian secret university, if you could tell me, just say a few words, because i understand that in the ukrainian secret novakivskyi also headed the department of painting, so is the art of art called so in essence in fact, the story was that at first he became a professor at the kyiv academy of arts, and as a professor at the kyiv academy of arts, he

became a co-founder of the ukrainian secret university. this is the year kyiv academy kyiv academy - pemonenko is there, that's right, malevich will come there soon to teach , cubofuturism is there, all these processes are taking place, the ukrainian revolution and everything, and novakivskyi is coming there, he did not come, as far as i understand, no came, but there was a very close exchange, they came to lviv, and to him and to, for example, there later in his school even, well, in the secret university too, in his school. then a part of those people who came to ukraine from central ukraine actually taught tubes, on the other side, and, well, for example, i wasn’t surprised, vrony taught screenwriting at this school, and peter kholodnyi, he

came to study his own sacred art, ugh, and relationships, it seems to me, is also an unexplored story , to what extent did these relations in general affect the way ... the partnership between the university of ukraine and zunr was built, but i am sure that it was the relationship between the kyiv academy and the secret university, and the secret university and this environment in general, and if mixed, mixed, that , which was not just galicia or just kharkiv or just kyiv, but it was these mixed environments that allowed them to communicate with each other and build human, human good relations, let's finish with the secret university, it was, it was really secret, that's how they studied there . hundreds and hundreds of people were persecuted by the polish authorities and yet it functioned and yet and yet it was like that, well , let's start with the fact that it actually just started with the fact that right after the treaty of versailles the rules there were changed for minorities, ukrainian

the minority in lviv was such a very minority and also a rather passive minority, and in fact in lviv. the university was forbidden to teach in the ukrainian language, and the students went on a protest, then the professor supported her, because they were also forbidden to teach in the ukrainian language, and it was, in fact, like an act of protest. in short, the act of protest, when they singled out and created it specifically for contributions, voluntary volunteer, civic contributions, they made this university, they hid for several years in a row, they were really behind them, and the local police was watching there, actually watching, and there were checks, and it was in one of the different places, in apartments, in st. george's cathedral, and somewhere else in novakivskyi school. and that's where

the sessions and meetings and studies took place, and this place was given there so that this university would exist. it's amazing, for me, it's just an amazing story about about a secret university and how, or are there any memories, what it was for... oleks novakivskyi, that is, how, how he talked about it, what exactly i didn’t find anything about the secret university, i can’t say, but the fact that it was very important for him, he was, he saw himself as a guide for young people, according to sheptytskyi, according to his reviews, i understand that he was not just a guide , he was a role model, that is, he is a person who, as a self-made man, he was able to make himself and he was able to be in... ukrainian, he chose to be ukrainian, he was able to be influential, the media in all of

europe wrote about him on this time, he was actually successful financially, uh, and uh, well, he was, well, he was a creator, he was an artist, and to be a successful ukrainian artist, it was almost unrealistic for him, he essentially created creativity. industry, the beginning of the creative industry, because he showed that you can make money not only on paintings, but you can make money there on postcards, on caricatures, and this is what they, they did with the students, this is actually one story, another story, when they came back after the gliders, they did small exhibitions in the cities, and you could come and choose the paintings you wanted there, and that's how they kept busy education in small towns so that, well... those who belong to the auto business also raise their level a little, well, beauty and

aesthetics, understanding what aestheticism is, tell me, please, which of the famous artists graduated from the novakivska school, who , whom we know, uh, uh, well, i'll just name a few names there, and, this, we can say, mir, this, roman selsky, and, actually, just like that, he's not like, straight, to study. for a long time, but he started with the fact that he went through corrections, and then he stayed. sviatoslav hordynsky, this is a very famous artist, writer and poet, and this is also such a vivid story of how the youth around novakivsky developed in this environment, because it was not only about art, and we can say, although i know that it is controversial question, but how about him... stovskyi is one of the most famous ukrainian artists in the american field, his

paintings were hung in the white house, and he was also an art researcher, an artist, and myron levynskyi, this is exactly us, well he is also a very famous artist who developed as well, self-employed, self-employed. the very successful edward kozak also had such a path, it is actually just interesting that he took this caricature line, and this is what he created very qualitatively and used, i think now you are enumerating, i think how many abroad people ended up, yes, that is, how much ukraine spent, as artists, no, but as their own. citizens who have, but how strong was the school and how strong

was this impulse to be ukrainian, that they all left a ukrainian signature for them, they left the signature is ukrainian, that is, there is an american of ukrainian origin, a canadian of ukrainian origin, i will ask you one more thing, you mentioned that the fact that sheptytsky supported novakivskyi is a myth, but... but do i understand correctly that this villa is wonderful, where, where was the museum later, and there is, yes, novakivskyi, did sheptytskyi give it to novakivskyi? no. not true, my god, such a beautiful story, many, many myths, well, first of all, i don’t say, don’t support, i wouldn’t say, i wouldn’t support, i would finance from the point of view, yes, the villa itself, just this villa, indeed, it was bought by sheptytskyi, but also donated, but not to novakivskyi, but

donated to the ukrainian national museum, which he created. yes, of course, novakivskyi also paid for the school, well, that is, for this school premises, and for the accommodation that was next to him, he paid, he paid with his paintings, and this was one of the reasons why he and the museum had a very close relationship, and he never had a personal exhibition in lviv in his life, not once, because actually it was svintsitsky who was invited by sheptytsky to be... director of the museum, he tried, well, as an enterprising man, he tried to constantly lower the price of paintings, and since novakivskyi knew that he was for it, well, that is, it was his opportunity to keep the price and live on it, and besides, to live, well, to keep as well as the school, because very often it happened that those who came there, they

came, uh, well, let's put it this way, it was often a story when novakivskyi also fed there. and provided, and there were, there were, it was different, and therefore it was important for him, and his, how his paintings were expensive, and he kept this brand expensive painting, but at the same time, if he did not hold this stamp of an expensive painting, then his students would also not become successful ones and would not be able to feel that the painting can be sold expensively. listen, what does it mean when diana klitschko says that novakivskyi is the most expensive ukrainian artist, what does she mean, ah... well, actually, this is exactly what she means, that in his time, what he exhibited as the price of paintings, it was really very high, it was very high, i want an important topic that we have not yet discussed touched, but what i am terribly interested in is your relationship with your great-grandfather, so for you

, this initiative of yours , novakivskyi space, is not just your initiative, and in general, your interest and your work? work, it’s not simple, it’s your family history, when, when did you start a relationship with novakivskyi, how did you find out about it, and in general, do you have any personal, or do you have any family, stories about him, or everything you know is mostly from biographies, actually written ones, or do you have any family stories about him? well, first of all, it must be said that there is a lot the information was hidden and shrouded in mystery, because sheptytskyi, as i said, was not a patron, he was very friendly with novakivskyi to such an extent, that is, they had a relationship, and they had a relationship so much that when novakivskyi was gone, sheptytskyi actually adopted his children, uh,

and it was simple for the soviet authorities as well. and that's why i think that he hid a large amount of information precisely so that he could not, well , let's say this, protect us children and those who grew up in this family, ugh, but were hidden by whom, let's say, your parents whether or not by the parents of the parents, well, we knew, well, we knew who the protite was. because i grew up among my great-grandfather's paintings, and well, you also have to realize that the museum is a memorial, it was created by my grandfather, with a very interesting story, because he first wrote to unesco and convinced unesco that they should make the year of novakivskyi , and then he returned to the lviv authorities and said that, well, look,

the year of novakivskyi is in unesco, it should somehow be highlighted there as 100 years of novakivskyi, and signed. that he will do the first the exhibition and the family will invest in it, that is, in essence, the museum is him, it is a big contribution, a big investment of mine, my grandfather, and therefore it is clear that behind this story, and we had an understanding of who he is as an artist, and what pictures, that he was of great importance for the country, but what significance was not unpacked, was not unpacked, and for me... in fact , there is also such a story that the second such a little touch to the history of his school happened because of my father, who... who headed the national museum, he headed it in the late 80s, your father is an architect, he is an architect-restorer, and a lot of what tourists see now in lviv, such as a pharmacy,

a museum, or the actual arsenal, is his, well , it is his, his work, and a large part of the buildings that there is a market on the square, by the way, my grandfather, he saved part of lviv from destruction, because... there was an idea of ​​replanning lviv approximately as it was in kyiv, in the area of ​​st. michael's cathedral, that is, this is the son of oleksa novakiv, this is the son of oleks novakivskyi , yes, yes, and then and then your father is the grandson of oleks novakivskyi, yes, as a grandson, he, she, he is like a grandson, when he became the director of the national museum, he began to establish contacts with students and give back, that is, through him i understood what the school was and who his students were, huh. but actually, it was precisely because of him that i started to somehow touch on this and research it, but unfortunately, his story with the national museum ended very sadly, i would say that

he had a very ten-year history if he had a story, we will not expand much now, but due to non-fulfilment of a certain party wish, it was against him it's an open case, he won the court, but he didn't want to return to the museum, and actually just that... what years, what year is it? well, this is actually not the beginning of independence, but with the beginning of independence we know, just like the fate of chornovol, we understand that the appearance of a person who was for independence, well, there is an interesting moment that, for example, he, it was my father that person who ensured that the national museum was located in the premises where the lenin museum used to be, and... near the opera house, now everyone knows that this is the national museum, yes, but when dad raised this issue, everyone in lviv was afraid to solve it, but fate

turned out like this, simply mythically and mystically, that gorbachev, who was supposed to go to one city there, ended up in lviv, raisa maksimivna had to be entertained, and my father had just taken her to the foundations and after that they gave permission for the premises of the leni museum. transferred to this project, but now you will not read about my father anywhere, precisely because he was erased from history, er, because of this history, because of this conflict, because there was a conflict with transferring the icons, he refused to transfer the icons, because a quick transfer would mean destruction, and he didn't want to do it, but someone really needed to do them, quickly, and there were others, well, it feels like a family, a family like that... character, i actually i want to ask, to return to oleks navakivsky, to ask about his character and his eccentricity, i have heard and read a lot about the fact that he was an eccentric, that

he was an eccentric and even a poser, that he could make up some some things about himself, let's say that he sleeps for an hour or so two a day, about chinese origin, maybe it's true, i don't know, but about the fact that he tripled with paints. and so on, that is , tell me about it, and about the chinese truth, well, as far as i have followed there, the dna truth was not done, i think that this should be done, listen, i would have done it a long time ago in your place, what about you? as possible, but even just by appearance you can understand that there are these roots there, and he actually brought oriental studies into school as an interest, and he was also very interested in the topic all his life japonism, that is, for... as a person who created himself in art, he was no less successful there than warhol, and he perfectly

created his legend as an artist, he certainly had an incredible talent, they say that he really , he had a certain magical gift, he gave, well, for sure, we understand that he had the gift of a visionary, well, but besides that... before that, actually, it was just as if the gift of seeing people manifest somehow, he had this very the story of the clairvoyant of the clairvoyant is amazing, let's say from one side on the other hand, this incredible talent , the students said that he had leonardo between his fingers and comparing him to the ninth, well, all the time when they took him to italy, he looked at michelangelo and said that here he is, here he is his teacher, and , that is, in principle, this is a person who was really very good at managing what he had these features of him as a person, he...

really unpacked it as talents, as talents. and sometimes he manipulated, of course, if he had a story with a stick, although, indeed, he had periods there prolonged hunger, and this hunger then affected his health, he lay there for a long time and could not get up because of it, but there were periods when he threw the stick and when inspired he could run, move, and, but... when he mentioned no-no, let's you carry me, support me, yes, well, it was she who immediately remembered parajanov and his eccentricities, yes, that's also true, he was very lively, bright, and that's why i immediately followed him young people were attracted, i can see even from his self-portraits and from his photographs that it is was an extremely charismatic person, then he and he used it, he used it, we only have

half of it left. for a moment, i want to ask more about the interpretations, i am very interested in this cycle of awakening, in which there is a lot of talk about a clothed girl standing against the background of some icon or a crucifix, so this is just one work, and a naked girl and myself, there are a lot of works in the cycle, for example, i say that, for example, yes. yes i mean cycle and very often we are told about the fact that it symbolizes the awakening of ukraine, and that's it for me, for me it sounds very unconvincing, because actually this girl, anna maria palmovska, she will be a 16-year-old girl, so polish, actually , a child, a child, you better talk about it now, yes, the 16-year-old child whom he

drew, and she... is his wife, yes, and this interpretation seems unconvincing to me, this interpretation is unconvincing, did he say it himself somewhere, or where did it come from , what is the awakening of ukraine? ugh, well, first of all, who was this child, tell me, please, first of all, what i want to say is that there was not only a child, it is a certain cycle, from which diana klitschko and i actually spoke, it ends with the last work of mother mercy, uh, in my head. it's a very connected cycle that's essentially about growing up and what you have to do, what choices you have to make in that coming of age, and in order to balance freedom and carefreeness, responsibility and transformation, yes, so it's interesting that actually the last work, it is to have mercy, not love, but small-heartedness is when i accept undeniably, and this is the level of a master. and this

work really, it started with the spending of my great-grandmother, who really, when she was an orphan, my great-grandfather, took her into custody and then married her, and it was an incredible couple of people in love who had the opportunity to live in love, unlike many others who did it out of obligation, yes, got married, at the same time this cycle, it has many images, and in particular it is very clear... the yellow-blue elements of a woman who at a certain moment, well, that is, there are even those who somewhat reminiscent of the french symbol revolution, and if this is a rebirth of birth, and in this cycle there are a lot of if stories, and stories about the fact that, er, it will be from the dungeon, uh, that first you have to descend into the dungeon, from the dungeon, then when you will be already considered dead, and that is where the birth will go, and this is

the myth of demeter, which he also, from there, he mixes, and, that is, that in ukraine there is its own period of spring, when it can come out, blossom and become, occupy its place, but if we are not growing up enough at this point, she will have to to go back to hell again, and have to come back from the underworld again and die, that's amazing, see, it's very good that i asked that, because the meaning is much...deeper and much more layered than than it's often interpreted, well actually you yourself have already led to a wonderful logical conclusion, yes, and i warned you, whether i will ask about the last phrase that he said to golubovsky before his death, nothing.