oh, and now there will be a conversation with volodymyr horbych, a political analyst at the institute of euro-atlantic cooperation, he will appear now, and i will advertise for him, because when ukraine and ukrainians first of all hesitated a lot, and that was 10, 15, 20 years ago , maybe 25, i don't remember when mr. volodyr and i met, he was then an absolute supporter of the nativists, he was such a nativist, we were still joking because... in the 90s there was a separate small group of people, which wanted to become personal members of nato, that is, at the level of citizenship, to write a letter to brussels, with ukraine, ukrainians don't want, but we want to, and that happened too. good health, mr. volodymyr, thank you for welcoming us. it is obvious that when we talk about euro-atlantic cooperation, we also talk about the 75th anniversary of the alliance. which in all these months

the alliance is actually celebrated, and in april the fourth, just this day. i would ask mr. volodymyr, how much do you think ensures that there is security, sorry for the conditional tautology, and and and members of this alliance, how successful it is, how much 75 years have shown that this is the right path, and therefore, if it is the right path, then ukrainians should also think about this path and make efforts on this path, good day, mr. mykola, thank you for your kind words presentation, i would just like to remind you that this idea of ​​individual membership in nato belongs to our, well, it belonged to our common friend, who has already, unfortunately, passed away. kucherev he,

he was then, well, it was dozens, ten or more years ago, yes, well, you can say i was joking, even, but it was, it was a resonant joke, why it seemed so then, and why it seems so now, because in the entire history of 75 years of the existence of the alliance, no one attacked this organization, except for one case, this... 11 in september 2001, when a terrorist attack was made on the united states in new york and washington by those planes, as you remember, the twin towers were destroyed and some other objects, but it was not an attack by any state , but of some anonymous terrorist group. e is

unknown and unclear, that is, it is impossible to follow it it was necessary to give an answer right away, it was necessary to find out who they were, where they came from, so to speak, and so on, and this is the only case in the history of nato when the fifth known article was involved, yes, about collective defense, eh -uh, and then it got the development of the events in afghanistan and so on, but other cases when some state allowed itself to attack nato member countries... have not been recorded in history, so we can say that nato security guarantees were in effect before that time, and well, as a guarantee against such a direct attack from some other side not a member state. i still have a question, sir , please look at this fifth article that you mentioned, and no matter how hard you push me to mention this article, there is no explanation, but i keep thinking... the french say, that

they may send troops, but ukraine is not a member of nato. french troops, even if they are sent to the territory of ukraine, this is not a reason for russia to start a war, because it is not nato, that is, they are nato people, but not nato land. in general, in principle, as lawyers can interpret, they appear there are poles, french, i don't know, estonians, and what does that mean, is that already? the belli case, a pretext for war or something? well, no, of course, because let’s say this, the french initiative of president macron to send french troops to ukraine, first of all, or some kind of wider coalition, it cannot not be, it is not in the format of nato, and so it is not discussed, and if they are attacked somewhere outside their own territory, then this does not mean an attack on a member state, for example, on the french

military in africa, well in west africa, in in the sahara, in sub-saharan africa, there were repeated attacks by various terrorist groups, but france did not intervene. this fifth article never once because of the fact that yes, well , continuing, for example, there were operations of the united states and others, and a coalition of a whole number of states, including european and nato members, in iraq, but it was not an operation nato, at the very beginning, we remember, france and germany then refrained from it, they simply did not refrain, they opposed it, and britain. and ukraine, by the way, yes, participated in this operations, and non-nato members also participated, it did not apply to nato, but in afghanistan there was an operation under the auspices of nato, and there were also attacks and the deaths of soldiers, members of these missions, let’s call them contingents, but this is

not meant the entry of nato into the war or the use of the fifth article, that is, what president macron is proposing, it does not actually concern nato at all, it can be a national initiative. of the french, well france, the french republic, or if some other, other states, member states join it, it can be such a coalition as as they call it, as it was in iraq or somewhere else, but as i understand it, without the united states this time, no, well , it may have another initiator, well, regarding that, there are fresh cases in our memory, it is turkey, when the turks shot down. a russian fighter over the territory of turkey, there are syrian events on the border with syria, then turkey tried, it used the fourth article, that is, the article of the four-ton treaty says

that when the country was attacked, or if it felt that it was about to be attacked, is there a big risk, she can initiate consultations, and already at these consuls with members of the organization already at these... these are decided there by the country itself decides whether to apply for this fifth fifth article, which is the principle of collective defense or not to apply, depending on the consultations, how the consultations will go, turkey , well, then turkey tried to use it, but all the members of the alliance, well, so to speak , did not go for it, did not get carried away, because the incident was exhausted, but the very fact of turkey's appeal to nato, it was an appeal to... .strong, that is, in my opinion, to a great extent deterred the russians from any answer to the fact that they lost this plane and for mr. volodymyr, they went further, this summer last year, around this time, it was quite optimistic, last summer, last year at

this time, everyone was optimistic, and in particular , due to the fact that it is possible that ukraine will be invited to nato at the washington meeting, now... we already know that they will not be invited, that what are the prerequisites in your opinion, what must be done in order to join nato, the same conditions remain, that is, we must defeat russia and start negotiations, or something else there are still conditions, whether we still need to beat someone there, whether we need indonesia or ecuador, i don't know who, well, you ask the question correctly, because the formal side of the question is what formalities are necessary... what formalities need to be followed in order to acquire membership in the organization, we know, previously it was a membership action plan, which consisted of annual national programs, now we were told in vilnius last year that there will be no membership action plan, ukraine will be a member of nato, but without a membership action plan , but well

, they didn’t say how specifically, without that, but with what, in what way, and here, well, by and large , we stand. on the threshold of what we should be told, initiate or invite to membership negotiations, this and this is not just an invitation to membership, this is an invitation to membership negotiations, this stage should be the next one for us, but of course that all the decisions from this, well, such, well, about the expansion of nato and strategic decisions, they are adopted, these are political decisions, they are not so much prerequisites, what conditions we will fulfill or not fulfill, with what quality these works will conduct how many political decisions of member states, which admit for themselves that ukraine in nato is better for nato than ukraine not in nato. therefore, of course, the war, the russian war, the russian aggression against ukraine, which continues, is

a restraining factor, a political factor, and it is for society and, accordingly, for governments, member states, and one way or another , some country or state will be found. nato, which will slow down this process for as long as the hostilities continue. it is not a fact that anything seriously will change much after the completion of these of these actions, but there will appear. there will be more space for negotiation of some beliefs of the partners and so on, now they are simply driven by fear, they are afraid to go to war, they believe that it can turn into the third world, and therefore a nuclear one, and this, this is their very , it paralyzes their political will and, in principle, it paralyzes, and the paralysis of the will leads to passivity in this theater of hostilities. and actually inhibits help and everything else, that is, another question,

a tricky question, so insidious, i would even said, look, stoltenberg says, not you, he cannot rule it out, it is the nato leader, that ukraine will have to make compromises with the russian federation, and one of the compromises, i can fully imagine such a compromise, is that you leave donbas to russia or the crimea of ​​russia. and we are taking you to nato, such a candy, nato is such a pretty sweet candy, the loss of territories is a pretty bitter candy, if it is a candy, a pill, and a pimple, yes, well, i would find something else, some other option, but i don't want to now, then, look, mr. volodya, so what to do, it is simply obvious that ukrainians, like all people, this is not an arisa of ukrainians, they overestimate their expectations quite often. and now they expect, and as i said a year ago , they overestimated, but the war quite often

ends with a big compromise, the gdr, germany, north and south korea, the baltic countries, the ussr and so on and so on, and the west has much more tools than many people it seems in ukraine, just don't give money, don't give weapons, just in this way, because of this, force ukraine to such negotiations, what do you say about such prospects. regarding such a perspective, perhaps soltenberg, jens stoltenberg, the secretary general of nato, is not the first to mention this idea, in fact it is a formula, well, it is an old formula even before the ukrainian conflict, there is peace or security in exchange for territory, peace in exchange on the territory, we remember this wording from the israeli-palestinian conflict, but in our russian-ukrainian context of the war, experts talked about this before, last summer until... almost a year, a year has passed, there was such a richard hass and other people who well

offered such a scheme that let's have the following option: donbas is a part of russia occupied by russia, ukraine, there donbas, crimea and other, other territories, they temporarily remain under russia, and the rest, the rest of the territory of ukraine. we accept nato and guarantee it peace, tranquility, security, there and inviolability. last year, as you rightly said, we were all here in ukraine, well, not only, and friends of ukraine too, were too optimistic, maybe even romantic, romanticizing our successes on the fronts. summer and autumn showed us that the reality is worse than we thought, at least last year. there are no major signs that something will change radically this summer, that our expectations will change to

a much more optimistic one, either, at least while the united states is paralyzed by internal, internal political problems and does not supply us with armed vehicles in that quantity , which we would need for the conquest of the territory, it has already passed the phase long enough ago. such a stage of the war of attrition, the war on exhaustion, it cannot be infinite, exhaustion still occurs on one side or another, and here i mean not only the exhaustion of equipment, ammunition, weapons run out, people run out in the end, but above all psychological exhaustion, and this psychological exhaustion of some kind from the sides it... in principle, it will lead to the fact that at least hostilities should die down

gradually or suddenly, i am not saying that these should be some official, public negotiations with some signed documents, but there may be a freeze on the war on such waning phase, and the key here is how russia is being exhausted, and whether it is enough, i have been for years and years, and in our... a public figure from poland, ryszard kupidura, i hope he will appear now, if he appears , we will talk with him, ladies and gentlemen , kupidura, good health, so we have

elections again, we, you have elections again, and we are talking about it again. and then the elections again, because then the european parliament, and when it was about the elections in the fall, then it was said that during the elections there are, to put it mildly, border misunderstandings between ukraine and poland and so on, now the elections will be over, all this will be a thing of the past, nothing is a thing of the past, now there are elections again, and we think, maybe it will now be a thing of the past, and then there will be another election for the european parliament, maybe then it will be a thing of the past. .. the past, in principle, as much as we can be optimistic, already yesterday president zelenskyi said that we have found other ways to sell our agricultural products, and there through moldova, and through romania and so on and so on, and through the black sea, then the question arises, well, okay, yes

what will happen then, what is the mood in poland, if there is no ukrainian transit through poland? and that's how the poles will lose money, as i understand it, uh, uh, once again, good afternoon, i might start with what these elections are about in general, because this is also a very important moment, also for ukraine, because in our , we always talk about national politics, about this central level of power, we have now in us, that is, in poland, yes... local elections, that is , elections for local self-government bodies, and i will allow myself to start, as they say, from afar, because it is really worth talking for a couple of minutes about what local self-government is, what is its role in a democratic country, because this is an extremely important topic, and by the way,

you probably also took part in such polish-ukrainian discussions many times, so it happened yes, in poland, in ukraine at the beginning of the 90s, the level of gdp was basically the same, the same in poland and in ukraine, why did poland manage to get ahead a little better with economic development, in ukraine this did not happen, one , this is, of course, a very complex and difficult question, and it is not simple to answer this, but one of the key points from the iconic ones is actually. the reform of local self-government in poland, it took place in 1999, and it is considered one of the most successful reforms in general for the entire time of independent poland, this is worth emphasizing, this was the first time in poland, we have a three-level local self-government , just like in ukraine , we have the level of the commune,

which is like a territorial community in ukraine, then there is the middle level, which are the counties. it is like districts in ukraine and we have this highest level of voivodeship - it's like in ukraine oblast e and in 1999 there was a transfer from central authorities to local communities e-e powers and most importantly , budget funds, i.e. taxes remained in e-e places and because of that really. local self-government bodies began to be a branch, a fairly significant branch of power in poland, and they had their own budgets, and these local ones, by the way , in poland there is such a word in the polish language as samojondoviets, well, it can be translated into ukrainian as a local administrator, and these polish self-made people, they say, we are not politicians, we, we, this, we have it as a profession,

we work here on the ground, and why am i talking about this, because it is... also very important for ukraine to after the ukrainian victory, after the end of the war, in order to continue the process of decentralization in ukraine, because without decentralization there is no successful country, this is a fact, it must be accepted, and that powerful volunteer movement, i have such a, well , personal dream and wish for you, so that the powerful volunteer movement that russia is stopping. the enemy, let him, let that one the potential was not lost, and so that it could actually be embodied somewhere, for example, in this movement in ...

and most of the polish local self-government bodies have their counterparts in the ukrainian regions and this is very important, because it these horizontal connections are very powerful, by the way, humanitarian aid between these regions does not stop, for example, recently a month ago, i spent the whole night translating a document from the pozyansky district, which was handing over another humanitarian aid for... the obukhiv district , so i think it is too it is worth emphasizing this at the moment when we have such an unpleasant picture with these

farmers' protests, but we have to see the wider picture, and the polish-ukrainian friendship does not stop in any way, i apologize for this long, when we will see, how to say , revenge of rights'. and justice, yesterday we just talked about the turkish elections, there are also elections in turkey, and the expert said that it is quite possible in turkey, because there are local interests, and local parties, local interests, and it is not the fact that those who win themselves, who at the national level can win at the local levels, or the same in poland, that what can happen, that yes tusk remains. prime minister, but on the ground , some forces will win, well, let's say there are anti-tusk forces, ugh, ugh, well, if you look at

opinion polls, the parties, these leading parties in poland, that is, the civil platform and justice, they gain more or less the same number of votes, 26%, but they are distributed differently, first of all, the civic platform wins in large... cities, and in cities with more than 100,000 the representative of law and justice will probably not win anywhere, well, there may be some surprise, but it is unlikely, on the contrary, well, for example, if it is allowed to advertise my hometown, then there is a very interesting situation here, i live in poznań, it is in the west of poland , liberal forces always win here, here... here a politician from a conservative party, which is law and justice, can, well, probably won't gain more than 25%, but after the second term

of the current president's second term in poznań, there is also a large, well, this jacek yaskoviak from the civil platform, but there is also a fairly significant share of dissatisfied people who will not vote for the candidate from the right of justice, but criticize. in the elections, not everything is so clear-cut, here it is not just a choice between the civil platform, but the right, the right and justice, here these political sympathies are distributed a little differently, yes, we even see that prime minister tusk is standing in the queue, as he is the prime minister in ukraine as long as this is it. it looks quite exotic, well, okay, listen, this, this joint action in warsaw, when ukrainians and poles

went to such a unifying rally against the trade of the european union with the russian federation, is this a sign of understanding at the grassroots level, at the level of ordinary people, or not. it's just such a coincidence, and the poles or a part of the poles are still suspicious of trade with ukraine and welcome it, as we saw recently with trade with russia. uhu, no, no, there is no coincidence here, uh, activists from euromaidan warsaw, uh, these are well-known activists, they unite here too, if they belong to this organization not only. ukrainians, as well as many poles, and they

wanted this happening, which we now see, which was called the international exhibition of cannibalism or cannibalism. to pay attention to the fact that all attention is paid to the fact that now there is an influx of agricultural products from ukraine, but trade with russia and belarus has not gone anywhere, many poles perceive this information with such surprise that they they say they didn't know about it, and well, it's also awareness. public opinion is one thing, but it is also very important to make politicians aware or motivated to take more decisive actions. we have the first statements from prime minister tusk that poland will advocate not for an embargo, but for a substantive duty, a very high duty, which will, in principle, be equivalent to an embargo on agricultural products from russia and belarus. well, and now

maybe the last question or group of questions: the european parliament is ahead, we will definitely discuss it again when the elections are over on april 21, as far as i understand, the second round, today is the first, but then the european parliament, what are they waiting for, what do sociologists say about the european parliament, what is possible, what will be the delegation, let's say, the polish delegation in the european parliament, unfortunately, yes, this is, in principle, you can even say the defeat of the european union, that we did not succeed, you know, we have elections at three levels, the local level, the national level and the level of the european parliament, which on alas, citizens, people simply cannot, if they were to adapt, cannot change their political sympathies, according to the level at

which they are. more or less reflect that, reflect what is in the polish parliament. yes, and one more, maybe now the very last question, this the question about, the number of people in the european elections, what i read, yes, not very closely, but so diagonally, the impression is that the poles do not yet consider themselves europeans, and a very small number of people who want to participate is expected

everyone elections, did i understand correctly, absolutely correctly, the lowest turnout in poland at elections always occurs in the elections to the european parliament, but this is actually connected with this trend, which i said, that we all think that we are the most we demand that our most essential questions decided by the national government, we do not want.

poland from poznań, as far as i understand. and now we have this, which is looming relentlessly and inexorably, an interview by yuri fizer, he spoke with the united states ambassador to ukraine, bridget bridget brink, and she said something quite interesting there, which is optimistic that congress will definitely support aid to ukraine, only a question of when and when... an interview, and then an advertisement, and then mykola veresen will talk to oleksandr duleba about the situation in slovakia after the elections that took place yesterday. congratulations, my name is yuriy fizar, this is an espresso exclusive. today i will talk with my interlocutor about urgent ukrainian-american

relations, what. wait from washington, i mean until…