escalation with putin, what will delay lead to? friends, we are working live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are currently watching us live there, please join our platforms and participate in our vote, today we ask you the following , do you support mass mobilization in ukraine, yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, either yes or no, write your comment under the video, if you watch us on tv, take your smart phone or phone and vote if you support mass mobilization in ukraine 0.800 211 381, no 0800 211382. all calls to these numbers are free, call, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. today, on our broadcast , political scientists oleg sahakyan, head of the united coordination center platform, mr. oleg, i'm from you. congratulations, thank you for joining

our broadcast, congratulations, glad to see, hear, and viktor boberenko, expert of the bureau of policy analysis, mr. viktor, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today, good health to you, well, since we we ask our viewers about mobilization, gentlemen, i will also ask you whether you support mass mobilization in ukraine, mr. olezh, please, i will tell you honestly, i do not fully... understand what is meant by sub-mass mobilization in ukraine, in ukraine with on the first day of the full-scale invasion, the mobilization has been going on all this time, to call it mass, no, it is all-encompassing, it concerns the whole of ukraine, therefore, actually, it may be mass, in this case, if we talk about a new wave of mobilization, then at the moment we are not talking about it , because mobilization is happening all the time, that is, if we talk about a comprehensive phenomenon, all-ukrainian mobilization, of course i support it, it is... the only

mechanism for ensuring justice in terms of mobilization today, the only thing is that our state apparatus and the way the mobilization mechanisms are arranged, they do not cope with it , they showed their low effectiveness, if not to say that their actions actually led to the discrediting of mobilization, the perception of mobilization in ukrainian society, but next to that, in the country there are no such phenomena as partial mobilization, or some separate, or of individual territories, as it is in russia, therefore any of them, by definition, is mass. thank you, mr. oleg, mr. viktor. i also agree with my colleague that mass mobilization is what it is, that mass is from a few, from thousands, from ten thousand, from 100 thousand. if we speak, that is to specify ourselves, yes, i am in favor of really lowering the mobilization...threshold from 27 to 25 years, i am

in favor of adequately, we mirror, at least responding to the events on rosyushka, where, rosyushka now 150,000 will be brought, not these, to military service, but experience shows that half of them will already be contract workers in six months, yes, because there the soldier is driven around the barracks until he signs. contract, and they are going somewhere, well, they themselves declare that they are going to call up 300 to 400,000 for the contract, so accordingly, we need to call up somewhere how many, in our country, when sirsky said that no, we do not need 500,000, it is clear that it was under the direction of the president's office, it was clear that it would mitigate any electoral threats to the president there. there, but if

there are not 500,000, then maybe 300-4,000, and accordingly it is within a year, it is not immediately in a month directly 300,00, we do not have any training grounds and in europe there are not enough to digest such a number of recruits, but to increase mobilization, conditionally yes it is necessary to recruit there from 300 + thousand new so's this year. thank you, mr. viktor, today, gentlemen, the verkhovna rada of ukraine has started consideration in the second reading of the bill on mobilization, the law on mobilization, more than 400 amendments, and judging by what is happening now in the session hall of the parliament, obviously the version, the original version that was from the government, plus some amendments from the committee, this will actually be the new law on... on mobilization, now we

see that during the voting in the hall there are several dozen people's deputies of ukraine , the representatives of the majority obviously already... understand what norms should be included in this law, and the formal procedure of voting for this law is just going on, but it must be said and recognized that the adoption of this law will, in principle, affect the future of ukraine, for the future society, for the future of how this society will develop, who will be mobilized in what way, who will be at war and when. and actually, well, it’s like this, i would call it a small, small constitution, probably of the war, of the current war, it’s this law on mobilization, because it’s all regulated, why, mr. oleg, in your opinion, in this process there is no one absolutely

clear leader of the process, that is, the leader of the process who is leading it, because zelenskyi said before considering this draft law in the second reading: we will convince the parliament to they did something there, syrskyi was invited today to speak and explain, and what he wants in this law, this law was formally submitted by the cabinet of ministers of ukraine, if this law is so important for the country, why, why is there not one clear leader who must lead this process, well, in this case , the supreme commander-in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine, because it is foreseen. responsibility and today all departments are shifting from one another to themselves, the very logic of submitting such bills is built as follows: the general staff prepares numbers, prepares data, forms its needs, passes them to the ministry of defense, the ministry of defense adds there a part that deals with provisioning, logistics,

balancing this with other issues that border on civil-military, then it is transferred to the government, and in the government, it seemed would, other ministries, other bodies should find out... with these data, add those moments that are important to them, compare it with their own programs and action strategies, calculate the numbers accordingly, the ministry of economy, other ministries, see how it will turn out influence on agriculture, how it will affect macroeconomic stability in various areas, ending with humanitarian policy, and ultimately then the government bill goes to parliament, it is clear that it must be under the leadership of the supreme commander, because... it is related to military topics, and ultimately there should be a closed discussion in the committee, and then an open discussion in the parliament already with additional amendments. ideally, precisely because of this , such a route is built so that at the finish line there is already a draft law in the parliament, with which is familiar with the entire system and has taken

responsibility. at every stage, all the bodies cannot say that we did not know, it happened without us, or we did not think, or something else, they all share the responsibility. in ukrainian conditions with our state apparatus, which in 30 years has steadily degraded from the soviet one and never built a european one. it happens in our country as follows: at each stage, each institution withdraws and tries to distance itself from the bill in every possible way. thus, after passing all the chains, each of bodies can now say: we are not responsible for this, they came up with this, they made amendments after us, and thus it... gets to the parliament, in the parliament, where the deputies sit, today there are serious problems with voting with the number of deputies in order to ensure the vote, in the parliament the deputies say, yes, so now you want to say that the responsibility for this frankenstein will now be borne exclusively by the deputies, they found

fools, no, we also wash our hands and then we will work with scissors on this of the draft law, cutting out from the core everything that can cast a shadow on... in this way , the draft law is emasculated on the one hand, and on the other hand it becomes torn in itself, from the latter, which we have already seen, the changes at the request of mr. syrsky removed the demobilization of this draft law thus, at the moment , i, for example, have not undertaken to say that this law on mobilization will be able to fundamentally change the situation with mobilization. of course, we leave a window to see what it will be like at the finish line. straight, because the voice can also be removed, and the amendments have been made, a lot can still happen with it, and the final document, in the end , we will see only after it is voted in the parliament, moreover, the intrigue with the possibility of voting, with the availability of votes remains the same, most likely

there will be votes, at least everything is done so that they are, but again , the ukrainian parliament in this case against the background of the confrontation that we see inside under the dome, it is also not guaranteed, and in the end... what acute questions about mobilization are there in society, demobilization, that is, how long the service in the army lasts, and this is not only a demoralizing factor for the military, but also for... civilians who can potentially go to change, replace those who are currently at the front, one of the key issues that potential recruits declare , tell me how much we put our lives at the disposal of the state, a year, two, three, four, give certainty, withdraws, does not withdraw, the second point, certainty regarding material support, and starting with salary, ending with payments in case of injuries, provision of victims veterans in the post-war period,

meaning after demobilization, demobilization, etc., social programs, other support, prosthetics, does this bill bring clarity? i don't think that there will be clarity, especially there, it will continue as it was, who has acquaintances, who has opportunities, who was paid attention to by the funds, who did not, who had native breakthroughs in order to knock them out of the state money to be had. paid for treatment and recovery, etc., will be there, others will not, that is, the game will still remain with many hidden in confrontation with the state. the third point, the question of the vlk and not the profanation of the physical, but the physical condition and moral condition of the recruits and their capabilities, the assessment of their professionalism, their... coefficient of useful action in one direction or another. we can see that the methodology from

the recruiting system is implemented here, which is currently deployed in several divisions. i also did not see this in the draft law, at least in the initial draft and in those amendments that were submitted. accordingly, most likely, at the exit we will not have an answer to the question that everyone who goes to defend will know whether he will be evaluated, really, according to his qualities and capabilities, he will find himself in the direction where he can be the maximum. not effective, then the question of the vlk, the question of all other injustices, when we come to what is meant by welk, when in 20 minutes a person is told that he is fit for service, or grabbing on the streets and all other abuses, we heard during this time harsh, and the harsh reaction of the authorities to all these abuses, we saw a public flogging of those who did it with a demonstration that now there is a hotline, now - where can to appeal either to relatives or to the military themselves, that there are mechanisms for bringing them to justice, that all those who did this

are now sitting in a prison, and accordingly they are a shining example to others that this cannot be done, i.e. guaranteeing those who undergo mobilization, that they, giving control over their lives to the state, receive in return transparent rules of the game in which they will not be humiliated, in which the state treats them accordingly, they get it according to the results of the bill, i also doubt, i can continue this series , but not to waste air time, but going back to your words about the fact that this was a small constitution for wartime from the point of view of mobilization, in fact that draft law, or rather, that law and those mobilization norms that existed, we we can say they are bad, they are not bad, they correspond to the realities or they do not, i think they do not, they are post-soviet. but were they followed? no, they were often abused. where are the guarantees that

these norms will not be abused , depending on whether there is a need for it, will there be a need for that? no guarantees are given for this either. accordingly, i do not think that this draft law will dramatically change the situation after its adoption, although certain positive moments after it in terms of digitalization, optimization of certain processes will certainly occur, but this draft law is for officials, not for society. for society there will be almost no answer, well, for society the main thing in mobilization, i think, is justice, well, that is, to what extent fair mobilization is possible in general under the conditions war and in the conditions of a corrupt state, that is , how fair can this mobilization be, and of course a fair reservation system, because we see that this reservation exists, that it works in some way, and now only the prime minister - minister denys shmyhal,

who in deyura is the leader of the process regarding the adoption of the law on mobilization, instructed the government to develop a fair reservation system, that is, it was, but now we will make it fair so that in the future there will be no speculation on this topic. let's listen to what he said shmigel. our military defends ukraine on the front lines, but a working economy and infrastructure are needed for... provision. one of the key issues in this direction is the fair and rational reservation of conscripts, employees of enterprises that really. but important. there should be no speculation or manipulation. therefore, i am instructing the relevant ministries to introduce an updated, fairer resolution on reservations in the near future and to define an exhaustive list of critical infrastructure facilities and enterprises. clear and understandable criteria are needed so that neither the military nor the public have any questions as to why certain people are

reserved in our state. mr. viktor, is it possible? fair mobilization under the current conditions? no, they can't, because justice is generally a relative concept, because somewhere in the world a century ago, or maybe 150 years ago, somewhere in papuan guinea, it was fair to eat one's enemies, and that's where they all are, and why did the aborigines settle kuka, it was fair to eat the enemy. what is now who and whose mother thinks, one mother thinks, it is unfair that my son has been fighting there for more than two years, he should be justly demobilized, and another mother thinks, no, let those who know how to fight fight, it is fair not to let my son go to war, let those who have been fighting for two years and already know how to fight fight,

they are trained, it turns out, it can be two mothers of neighbors, oh... they live in the same place there or in the same house, and they have completely different opinions about justice, and justice in the ukrainian version is impossible a priori, and you also need to know that the basis of the mentality of ukrainians for ukrainians is that justice is higher than law, if, after all, for western society, law is the most important thing, yes, if the standard is written like this, like this, yes, then we all act there, to some it seems fair, to others it seems unfair, but this is how the law is written , strictly the law, yes, it has been there since ancient times, yes, there was also this european rule, our

rule, the law is as it was, as you return it , this is our mental right, and that is why in our country it is considered that justice is higher than law, because the law can be implemented somehow, in different ways, so there is absolutely no justice in the world, yes, because even people are born unequal there in different families, some are majors, some belong to working families, yes with various gifts, i would like to be a world champion in football, but god did not give it to me. fast feet , yes, or a classy voice, the world is unfair, but in ukraine it is unfair also because it happens that in our country, at least, i think that most people, 99%, will agree that it would be fair if, for example, yevhen koshovyi went to fight, he is from the 95th

quarter, he is not in the circus, thank god, and i will ban those circus performers. he's probably not a journalist, because that's where the ministry of culture banned everyone there from a single marathon, by the way, nothing is said about the espresso tv channel, and from espresso they can take it from the fifth, from the direct, but from the pluses , well , we know the pluses, it’s the most honest channel, yes, that’s why someone thinks that it’s fair not to take away the pluses, but to take away healthy men from espresso, and that’s all fine, it’s for someone it seems at... in the president's office, i'm sure that for someone it's a very fair norm, but even so, it won't be relative justice, that's right. thank you, mr. victor. against this background, zelensky is trying to convince our western partners that more aid should be given to ukraine. he says that if russia wins,

hundreds of thousands of people will become victims. he gave an interview about this. to the german tableau dubild, and in principle he says that ukraine does not have enough air defense systems, putin understands only force - says zelensky, he feels like an animal, if he cannot defend himself, he will destroy even more, his desire to take over the whole of ukraine, well, in principle, the president is doing the right thing in that he communicates with the western audience and with the leaders of the western world, but. .. is this communication within ukraine sufficient, it is absolutely clear that difficult times are ahead in ukraine and in the next few months, because... we only see the president speaking, this is a western audience, that russia is gathering 300,000 to mobilize people so that there will be a big offensive, which is there is a threat to kharkiv, that putin is

an animal, and something must be done with this animal, but is this kind of internal motivation, maintenance of internal motivation for ukrainians necessary, mr. oleg, so that ukrainians understand what awaits us and is it necessary adult a conversation, not just a conversation, that we will be in sevastopol in august and there will be a concert of some ukrainian band and how to constantly tell children something, and then pass a bill that takes men away from families, in these families they say, well , we were already told that there will be absolutely in a different way, when this stage of growing up in the discussion, in communication with society will be... the representatives of the ukrainian authorities, if we answer this seriously, departing, say, from our political discourse and

internal political battles, then in fact it is a two-way process, and unfortunately, we see that both society has room to move in awareness of its role and subjectivity in the ukrainian state, and so does the government, for example, i recently had a discussion about the role of society in relation to the government. and a thesis was heard from one of the subscribers that you have to go out, you have to rally, even if there is no specific reason, it may not be entirely fair, but for prevention, which was very serious for me, that society should see the government not as an enemy, society should, on the one hand , control the government, and this means controlling the steps and actions of the government, and on the other hand , supporting where it concerns the national... interest, cooperating in some things where it is beneficial, in other things beating hands, it is not possible for prevention, or simply because of dislike to some

a specific surname, to smear everything with one color, and this was very well demonstrated on the international arena, that from the very beginning of the full-scale war, ukrainian society treated ukraine's external communications very seriously and in an adult manner, and even when we saw attacks by the russian authorities or pro-russian... forces so as to contrast with the ukrainian government abroad, we saw that the ukrainian society said that no, our government can be any, but only we can criticize it and control it, definitely not russians and certainly not from abroad to order and tell others what and how, we should learn this internally, to separate the important from the petty, the authorities, in turn , need to learn to communicate specifically with ukrainian society, because... the external audience is sufficiently specific communication, dosed, there is not much of it, it is clear that this has its own specifics

of communication, on the internal communication there is much more, there are daily appeals, there is a whole series of speakers and heralds from the office of the president to the lowest level of officials, but they do not speak with one voice, and they speak a lot and... and very rarely concretely, there is a lack of systematic, concrete and clear communication from the authorities with society, which would answer the key questions that exist in society, not inform would be about the whole world, loving the main thing, and the conversation should be about the main thing, as it often happens in the external media, and if we talk about messages for our partners abroad, then in fact we are... today hostages of an internal political crisis in the united states, and this crisis has its own logic. currently, unfortunately, support for ukraine is

a matter perpendicular to both the electoral interest of the democrats and the electoral interest of the republicans. after all, we have turned into a ball for election support between both teams, and the question of supporting ukraine is actually put in parentheses, as the one on which it is won. electoral dividends, and not that which relates to a question of national and state interest of the united states. to put it very simply, it is actually national the interest and foreign policy statesmanship of the united states was eaten up by electoral logic and narrowly selfish partisan interest on both sides. this can be seen in different statements, in different steps. in the case of trump, this is a situation of blocking any decisions that could be a victory for biden. in the case of. biden's team is the blocking of any decisive steps and a kind of guaranteed indecision in matters of support for ukraine, and of course there are some rationalizations behind this,

that is, their own efforts are not decisive. clean give rational forms to the own position of the united states today , saying that putin can strike with nuclear weapons, or there may be an escalation and a third world war, or if we take these steps now, the voters will not come to the polling stations, then trump will come and there will be horror terrible, even worse than, if we do not help now, and from the republicans on the contrary, if this continues, then the horror will be terrible, it is necessary to replace biden as the head of the white house at any cost and elect accordingly. a new president and everything is going in favor now this hooligan, only later, when we take power into our own hands, then we will deal with all the problems, and we are now forced to exist in this reality. fortunately , we see that more determination is emerging in europe, a coalition is being built, france and britain are already talking about the revival of the entente, and we actually see that such a eurocentric view and leadership. in

the middle of the north atlantic alliance can now get its place to appear, against this background, of course, there will be other geopolitical stories, in particular, china is going now, india has its own story is developing, and in ukraine it is very important now to follow all these trends and work with a wide audience, but very segmented, with an understanding of what strategies different players are pursuing, defending their own interest, and in order to have a strong position for this, and for this communication, for... actions need to be united within the state, for this we need a serious conversation with ukrainian society, and such a conversation requires answers, and answers assume the presence of certain steps and actions. it is very difficult to provide effective communication, when there is a whole series of problems, on which decisions are not made in principle and on which the diametrically opposite of what society expects, ideology, communications, conversations, things

are never possible. you can replace it for a certain time, you can use words as anesthesia, you can divert attention, but it is impossible to replace it, and in this there is a second discrepancy, in that words should correspond to actions, and actions to words. there is no doubt, mr. olezh, that the verkhovna rada of ukraine should also work, and not, well, give a certain result, and not like the congress of the united states of america, from which we are waiting for some decisions, and... complain constantly, but the verkhovna rada of the model of 2019, when it worked in the mode of a crazy printer, the parliament and the current parliament, they are different, and that is for me, for example, it is a mystery why now, during the war, when there are so many urgent issues, and not only the mobilization law, but also other issues that need to be discussed, need to be passed and work

non-stop, why the parliament ... does not work in non-stop mode, and why we, complaining about our western partners, we actually periodically do not look at ourselves in the mirror and do not see what is happening there, i mean the internal big fronts, the corruption that exists, it has not gone anywhere, and we see that decisions should obviously be made faster in the parliament, but in the end we have to... tell the truth that we also have a parliamentary crisis, and well, this is also a step towards a political crisis, which, what, could be in ukraine, because if this continues and ee laws on such laws as on mobilization, c they will not be leaders in the process, then this is also a political crisis when there is a monopoly power, but it cannot assume sole responsibility, or divide the monopoly power among others and get it.

the same responsibility is also from others, mr. viktor, why exactly in this situation, what is missing, what element is missing for the authorities to be responsible, i mean all the powerful state institutions in ukraine, the temporary ones in which we now live, so that everyone understood that there was a war going on, that the parliament had to work 24 hours a day and make all the decisions that need for the government to also understand that it is necessary to work more effectively so that all anti-corruption. the authorities made the most of what they had and imprisoned all the corrupt people, because you cannot steal time like this, you cannot be idle and you cannot waste time when the enemy is literally on the doorstep, what can i say, we have such a situation that. ..