stay with us, it will be interesting. good evening, we are from ukraine. glory to ukraine, this is the verdict program. my name is serhiy rudenko, i greet everyone and wish everyone good health. for the next hour, we talk about ukraine, the world, the war, and our victory. today in the program. loss of 100% generation. did the aggressor destroy the largest thermal power plant of centerergo? does this encourage partners to provide ukraine with more air defense? win-win cooperation. in beijing, lavrov discussed the dual opposition to western countries. how can the us respond to china for supporting russia in the war with ukraine? prospects of the global summit.

peace switzerland is gathering world leaders for a forum on ending the war in ukraine, will xi jinping be among them. we will talk about this and other things during the next hour with the diplomat, ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary of ukraine, valery chaly. however, before starting our long conversation with mr. chaly, let's watch the video of the aftermath of the massive attack on trypilskaya tess in the kyiv region. as a result of this attack, a large-scale fire occurred in the turbine shop, the station was completely destroyed. central energy reported a loss of 100% generation. let's see.

friends, we are live on the espresso channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, if you watch us live there, please subscribe to our platforms and also take part in our survey today. we ask you about the following: is

china capable of forcing russia to stop the war in ukraine? yes, no, please vote on youtube with the appropriate button, or leave your comment under this video, if you are watching us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote if you think china is capable of forcing russia to stop the war in ukraine, 0800 211 381, no 0800-211-382. all calls to these numbers are free, vote at the end of the program. we will sum up the results of this vote. we have our guest in touch, valery chaly, diplomat, ambassador of ukraine to the united states of america in 2015-19, chairman of the board of the ukrainian crisis media center, mr. valery, i congratulate you, thank you for joining our broadcast. greetings, tv viewers, glory to ukraine. glory to heroes. let's start, mr. valery, with today's strikes, night and morning strikes. of the russian federation on

the energy facilities of ukraine, the russians completely destroyed the trypil tpp in the kyiv region, previously the zmiiv tpp was completely destroyed and the uglehir tpp was occupied. it is obvious that the enemy is trying to completely de-energize ukraine and create the conditions for a humanitarian disaster, and obviously, in this... situation, ukraine needed to address the world and talk about the violation of international law and the fact that russia is carrying out strikes that threaten the civilian population, which actually targets those objects, which is a war crime, why do you think there was no urgent call from the official kyiv to the security council today. this is

a question, and whether to other international structures, or appeals to these structures already, well, there is no significance whatsoever, and they do not affect behavior. russia and unable to do anything with it? well, in parts, if we allow, initially, in relation to the tactics that russia took, then more such terrorist attacks, indeed, aimed at destabilizing the situation, and if it did, it would cause people to despair, because these are means of total war. now about what it is from an international point of view. it is obvious that this is a crime, it has been said many times, and on march 22, when the zmiiv station was destroyed, by the way, sumy was also attacked today, that is , there were many such statements from various factors, the un

even also urged that this should not be done, pointing the finger there showed everyone why this is happening, because this sphere of war is really regulated by the folk humanitarian law, and it prohibits strikes on infrastructure objects that are used by the population in principle, but in fact, in this humanitarian law, which already existed after the second world war, additional protocols to the geneva conventions were somehow developed, they were still accepted, there are none, here carefully , hear the differences between the country.

when it even held back, it received blows not just at the refinery, for example, where something is happening in russia, including fuel for tanks, for planes, which are clearly aimed at war, besides, really funding, which has also been proven, is aimed at specific objects of civil infrastructure, and the difference, to be honest, can be proven. it will be only later someday in the courts, at today's stage it would be put on one level, what should be done in this situation? to get someone to say once, twice or three times that it should not be done this way, it is bad,

we can do it and it should be done, but the crime needs to be documented, it needs to be permanently included in the file now and not only . dossier of a lawyer who works, and ukraine works over this, over these russian crimes, but, and i would call for the dossier to be given constantly on a daily basis for the entire external environment, in english, well, or the translation can then be of the transcript, which should go on a daily basis, from whom, i think, which was correct from the ministry of foreign affairs of ukraine. that is, at the level of the spokesperson, and it is necessary to determine the appointment of this person, that is, who has a high level, much higher, even than before, and perhaps this

tool would give us a wider game, and there is a permanent comment in the file situations of seizure of nuclear facilities, zaporizhzhia station on terrorist attacks. for specific crimes, every day there must be an official person who is responsible for everything, well , he is in the civil service, who has all access, permissions, who receives information from the minister of internal affairs, from key people, this must be constantly on the air every day, we should not hear any interpretation from gazetinozem, even respectable ones, or from simply in ukraine, this should be a permanent position, and it should be directed outwards. and now i will say in conclusion, it is obviously the right decision here from my point of view to talk about the security of systems. i am not a great specialist in this

matter, but i call for physical protection against such missiles, which russia uses against us from strategic bombers, missiles of nuclear war. it is impossible, especially several hectares of these objects, even, i think, against drones is not so easy to protect, although it was done, so we have to look at the strategy. what things we should do, strategy, in my opinion, this is my subjective opinion, the strategy should be such that there should be a powerful response to such strikes, it could be ukrainian and symmetrical, but as russia is the aggressor, it is asymmetrical, that is, in this situation, the strategy is clear, the only problem is that we do not have several hundreds of those missiles that are needed in order for this strategy... well, since you already mentioned air defense, today at a press conference in poland

during the summit of the three seas, three seas initiative, president zelenskyi said that the patriot systems from partners are needed only temporarily, as ukraine plans to produce own systems. let's listen to what zelensky said. we do not have air defense, such an air defense, our own production. as patriot simply does not exist, i want to tell you, we need time, we need partners to help us, we do not need patriot systems, forever, we will definitely be able to produce our own systems, we have started working on it, i believe that we will certainly be able to do it, but at this time we do not want to lose people's lives. earlier , the minister of foreign affairs of ukraine dmytro kuleba said in an interview with the washington post

that ukraine needs at least seven systems air defense in order to at least somehow cover the problems we have, i will quote mr. kuleb. i feel like i'm banging my head against a wall, though, even though i'm a diplomat, which means i have to dismantle the wall of these... brick by brick, but since that diplomacy doesn't work, i feel like beating the wall, i just don't i understand why this is not happening, mr. valery, in your opinion, and why, why is it not happening, why there are a hundred patriot systems there, of which ukraine claims at least seven systems, or a maximum, as mr. kuleba says, and they are not given to ukraine. for that we could press in this way, why didn't you give us, we have to clearly

explain to our partners, and we should have done this before, why this affects their security, that is , not in general phrases, which unfortunately do not work, but in very specific phrases in a conversation with specialists, well, it is also obvious to me, as well as to the minister of funeral affairs, that it is much... more efficient, cheaper and safer for europe to provide these systems to ukraine now, not only these, of course, i wanted here would say one thing, if you concentrate only on defense systems, these are defense systems, you can shoot back for a very long time and shoot something down, but in the end it will all fly straight. ukraine needs ee for defense, according to un statutes, systems that provide an opportunity. destroy the bases from where it is launched, the planes from where it flies,

the ships from where the calibers fly, without this there will be no result, air defense systems, not only patriot, there are european systems, somehow we are now concentrated around the seven patriot systems there, oh well things, systems, i so hope it's the batteries, you mean because the battery has from four to eight launchers for four missiles, there is a radio-rotational one. the machine station is additional, that is, it is a whole large system, well, i think we are talking about it, but in order to close objects, other systems are needed, and the same ones, and missiles to them constantly, and the same hawks even, which, by the way, the americans, despite what we constantly hear, congress does not approve, congress cannot, but a few days ago they published the possibility of purchasing for 138 million dollars. in additional parts of rockets for hulk. hulk is a system, yes, it is older than

patriot, but it still works. therefore, we also need a quantity here. but you will never bring this number to the desired number. and here is the answer to your question, why don't they give back? well, first of all, because, well, ask them, give us a space rocket, give us a space rocket, we also need to launch our own satellite. in order to observe oneself to be able to observe space. by the way, who told us where the money for our satellite went? do you remember, there were big charges for the satellite. folks, it’s a lot of money, but where, well, where is it, i want it, i don’t know, honestly, i can’t understand what happened after that, although i also donated to this satellite, so it’s, you know, yes it is necessary to prove why they benefit, it is much more difficult than to prove why you need, and this is in

reality, these are realities, therefore, i understand the frustration of the minister of legal affairs, because such ... by the way, are achieved by the joint actions of very many actors, starting with the president of the country, indeed the minister of legal affairs, but also not forgetting the possibilities of diplomacy, public, parliamentary diplomacy, in the end f-16 planes, there was at least some kind of coordinated policy regarding the activity of public and public diplomacy and various departments, here i am, well, understanding that... there is a need, that is about sim systems, i only heard it publicly on some foreign site, why exactly sim, i think these questions are being asked, well, here the military and those who are specialists, they will immediately draw conclusions about what sim systems are and what they will close, i i also guess, but i know for sure, here is my position, if we do not convince our

partners that we need this year as much as possible in a large volume and concentrated, well, let's say, enough ... volume in order to stop russia and start to liberate the territories, which will send a very serious signal both to putin and to the kremlin, without these weapons, even these systems will not help us by themselves, but the fact that they are needed right now, and not sometime in the future, is absolutely obvious. and today the european parliament refused to adopt the decision on the financing of the council of the european union, until the member states can... find seven, exactly seven, although you are right, mr. valery, because these numbers are somewhat different, zelenskyi says 25, and kuleba says seven, well, that means she should have there should be some, perhaps, one figure or an explanation for these systems, so the european parliament refused to make a decision on the funding of the council of the european union until the member states can find seven

patriot systems for ukraine, accordingly, the proposal was made by the mep, former prime minister . and verkhovstat, she was met thunderous applause and supported by 515 votes, opposed by 62 meps. let's listen to what the former prime minister of belgium said. for the past 20 days, the russians have been shelling ukrainian cities, hospitals, power plants, and residential buildings. i consider it a scandal that europe, which opens the door for... ukraine and the european council, is not able in such a situation to make a decision to send a certain number of anti-missile systems to ukraine. there are 100 patriot complexes in europe, mr borel said. ukrainians ask for only seven. and we, europeans, we invite them to the european union and the european council, but we cannot do it. so i propose not to consider the 55

budget questions until we give ukraine these seven patriot systems. these are very good declarations that were made in the european parliament, but the reality is that every night the russians are destroying energy facilities in ukraine, and obviously, if a decision is made to transfer seven systems or seven patriot batteries there, it will not happen as quickly as i i see, that's right, mr. valeriu, mr. valeriu, you're on... we've lost touch with valery chaly. well, friends, actually, this is what we have already started to talk about with the extraordinary and plenipotentiary ambassador of ukraine valery chaly, about the decision of the european parliament to refuse to make a decision on the financing of the council of the european union, until ukraine

receives seven patriot systems, for now. and there is such a declaration, to what extent this declaration can be implemented in general, well, and in what perspective, valery chaliy is in touch again, mr. ambassador, once again, good evening, we had some problems with communication, i did not hear everything, but heard that the declaration about the patriot, to what extent it will be implemented, look, now the first position that is needed is that we need to decide with our partners the strategy, or actions, tactics for this year, that is... so that there are no such different statements about which objects in ukraine can be struck there , which cannot be beaten, that is, if we have systems that allow us to implement... in different ways and in other ways, then this issue is not so acute, but the fact that now prime minister

verkhovstat, former prime minister the minister of belgium said, and it was supported in the european parliament, that is of the patriot system, this is a response to our ukrainian request, that is, which sounded from the diplomatic platforms and president zelensky spoke, you quoted minister koleba, that is, there is a reaction to this as well. but the problem here is that, unfortunately, the european parliament does not determine exactly this decision, because it is determined precisely by, well , executive structures, and it is especially important that the european union itself does not have patriot systems, they exist in a specific country, that is, it is some kind of lever of influence , but when it works, one more moment, i'll be honest with you, i i remember cases when this funding decision was stopped in previous years as well. and it wasn't connected there by the patriot systems, right? i looked at the documents, i did not find a document that links the funding to the provision of the patriot system. these are the statements of only a few of our

good friends, well-known politicians of the european parliament. so i wish it would work. and by the way, the same situation now exists in the united states. it is very similar to all this, so we can hear a lot of words, call, but we need them. and the decision is now, now it is still yesterday, because such a pause for putin was put on pause for six months to attack ukraine, that is, it may come, it may come , it is not known when, but we must look for solutions that now strengthen ukraine, ukraine is now being strengthened, first of all, in addition to air defense systems, these are shells, these are missiles for those systems that there are already in ukraine, and we cannot use them, because there are not so many of them, we have to choose targets, despite our experience. military, we need to repair equipment now, we need people from nato countries on our territory who would work to support ukraine, not on the front line,

and where weapons are produced, where there is cyber security, where there is the use of their weapons, including the patriot systems, we need to advance these political solutions very quickly with our partners, and if necessary, do it more openly, publicly, as russia is doing . attacking us, perhaps the time has come to appeal very strongly to the peoples of these countries and in the public space, that is, it might have worked worse before, it seems to me that now all these methods, well, they should be parallel, but mainly concentrate efforts on to this and one more point, let's think about how much the process is, where most of the resources go, the signing of security agreements there. constantly with each country, uh, there are some intentions, many years ahead, recovery, how much they now help us survive and

endure and win, i think we need to review the strategy in this regard and many priority things to look for now in the coming months, year , this is a critical time, somewhere until the spring of next year, and all efforts should be concentrated here, not later, somewhere for recovery, money for recovery. even me i will say a controversial thing, even the blocks of nuclear stations that we need to build, but this money should go right now, well, let 's go ahead, we understand, russia will hit the distribution systems, we need to, well, make generation more and less vulnerable to attacks, that is, there is room to spend money, it is necessary to concentrate not so large resources on these issues as much as possible now, then our partners will understand that we are thinking in the same direction and... they will all immediately understand that now is the time to stand up and help ukraine, and not sometime later . well, what about intentions, about whether we we look in the same direction and think alike

with our western partners. a few days ago, the secretary of defense of the united states of america, lloyd austin, publicly warned kyiv against attacks on the oil refining sector in russia on oil refineries and said that... ukraine should focus on attacks on military targets, he stated this at a meeting of the senate committee of the united states of america for the armed forces. let's listen to a little sync. of course, these attacks could have consequences for the global energy situation. i think ukraine is better focus on strikes on tactical and operational targets that can directly affect ongoing hostilities. mr. valery, this is what this statement of lloyd austin means, that these are the conversations that took place on the sidelines and

the unnamed sources to which he always refers. bloomberg and other western publications, that in fact, the united states of america previously privately called on kyiv not to strike at the oil refineries, and if kyiv does not destroy the oil refineries and the fuel continues to flow, the fuel will flow to the planes, to the tanks, which means that the window of opportunity for putin's will be much bigger, and... we will not reduce it, it turns out that the united states of america is urging us not to do this, and why are they urging us to do so? first of all, what is given in the ukrainian zmi is pieces, in this case, it is an answer to the question of the minister of defense or the head of the pentagon, to a specific question of senators, tough questions are asked there, and it is not only for us, first of all this is a response to criticism

. senators who are not always inclined to help ukraine, there were other issues, very difficult ones, that is, including them regarding giving crimea, for example, a question to the minister of defense, there they are talking about different options, and crimea can, it is possible to compromise in order to give, ukraine gave crimea. he says, well, the official position answers that we, well, avoids, shall we say, such a sharp answer, and then the senator presses on, says, well, crimea is... you can say whether it is ukrainian forever, and mr. osten said ukrainian, therefore, it is not necessary to immediately tear it all out of a big two-hour conversation on many issues. selystva wolander also spoke about these things, about what is not desirable it would be for oil refining, well, as i told you, in humanitarian law, this is generally considered a very, very delicate, delicate

issue, and therefore really, in order to... prove that this is a dual purpose goal, you need to have a lot of arguments for it, but where is russia and where is humanitarian law? so i think i took it as a message, well, the conclusion is this: first, they have conversations with the russians, and it's hard to dismiss, by the way, the senator who asked whose crimea, and mr. austin said ukrainian, right in this answer , so, but with regard to the fact that what they say, it is preferable not to beat, that's how they say it in israel, they say... the same thing that it is desirable to carry out, and russia wants to hear it from them, because they have conversations among themselves there, there is a second track, or whatever you need, you have no doubt that all these conversations continue, so we have to do our part, ukraine has to do its part, that is, we will wait for the united states to make a decision now, which is promised by the united states, that's all, that's all just as long as you don't have

like... russia has missiles, if we had a missile atakams, or the new american one, or the german taurus, which would be at a sufficient distance, we would use drones somewhere 1200 km away, of course, these are our guys who are already showing that we can and yes, let’s return to those limits in which it is necessary, and not not to do this, but to disperse these efforts of ours all over russia. and we have objects on the territory of ukraine, only on the occupied territory, just give us these missiles so that high-precision sniper missile weapons hit these tanks, well, the drone will not fly to 10 tanks there, which standing together, for example, such an object, well , we understand, even civilians, that it will fly there, that it will damage one or two cars there, well, we see planes successfully there, they can do it on planes, also on

airfields , but... it’s all the same, it’s not a missile that can hit, despite the protection, despite the large overlaps, that is, without killing people, damaging equipment, then give us missiles, and then we, i understand, then we have there will be more targets that will be impressed in this way, so i think that the partner is always it is necessary to hear, but to understand that it is heard by various consumers of information, and the main thing is in our relations... the usa is our partnership now, we have communication channels, there is a constant dialogue at the highest, high level, and these issues are there are actually resolved. i have not heard the official position of ukraine that we fold our hands and simply look at the terrorist attacks of russia against our population. i heard the president's statements to the contrary.