who was on the fifth floor, he was contused, well, to leave them and try to save yourself, it was nonsense, to run, to put on body armor there, to hide there, there was no time, well, at that time it so happened that we were many of our policemen , which can be said, uh, while performing their duties , suffered, and at the same time received heavy advice. i wanted to ask you this, here is pokrovsk, at the same time in the summer of the 23rd there was a kramatorsk flight to a restaurant, to a pizzeria, we very often see the crimes of the russian federation against civilian population. which occur

due to the adjustment of their missiles by the ukrainians, who for some reason do this, despite the fact that they see what horrors the russians are bringing. in your opinion, should ukraine react more harshly to people with pro-russian views inside ukraine, should the population be more vigilant or... or should they perceive in a different way what is next to us, maybe our neighbor, one of them, maybe tomorrow adjust russian missiles at our houses? in my opinion, treason is the worst, worst crime, and how people see it, and maybe if say. from god's point of view, treason is the most

terrible thing that can be justified by this criminal, which they allege, considering them in some way to have, to imagine something, to make a mistake, and it is the same to be traitors, who betray their people, who live next to you, this is the most terrible thing, i think that the punishment... maybe should be, should be more severe punishment applied in our courts for these crimes, because they have no excuse, let those who commit it, let them be out of life think about prose that they made their own consequences on these, maybe at least this... connections with this punishment, they

will understand that what they are doing is completely sad, this is my personal opinion. mr. volodymyr, the last one is probably for me, i have a question for you, i apologize, summing up our entire conversation today, uh, how would you rate the way the russian federation is conducting this... war, certainly, this war has shown that this war is criminal from the very beginning, and criminals cannot fight like a real one, they wage it criminally, they have no self-respect, with these crimes also disgrace themselves, there are no soldiers who are worthy. respect on their part, these

crimes that you committed will be dark spots on them for years to come, they may never bring them out, i believe that the most important thing for us is to prove these crimes in the world community, to remember about these crimes and understand that it goes unpunished. they commit these crimes, so now ukraine is doing a very big, big job, it is taming world-class criminals, unfortunately, it is so, it is our efforts, our efforts we stop these criminals who will not stop, well, maybe the people of the world will understand and there will be... worthy help of our country to

endure, so that we get victory over these terrible crimes, well, let's hope for that. mr. volodymyr, i wish you a speedy recovery, thank you for taking the time to talk with us, glory to ukraine, heroes of glory, thank you very much for the interview, i hope that our efforts will not be in vain, and that we will win, let's hope for it , thank you, thank you all for watching. chum, stay with us. welcome to the espresso channel. today, in

our military program, we will talk about how ukraine can and wants to strengthen its air defense system. ukraine's need. means of air defense became so obvious that, for example, the european parliament this week refused to vote on the budget issues of the council of the eu until ukraine receives additional patriot systems, because the european parliamentarians themselves believe that there are as many as 100 patriot systems in europe and to transfer at least seven to ukraine for protection of our cities is quite possible and quite logical, but these are such words politicians, and this actually does not mean that the governments of european countries are about to make a decision to share patriots with ukraine. so, what is the reality and what can ukraine do to really strengthen its anti-aircraft capabilities both on the battlefield and in

the skies above our civilian cities in view of the russian threats, which are still not diminishing. we will talk about this in the next article. release of our military program "war and weapons". my name is serhiy sgurets, i am the director of the information and consulting company defense express, which is currently jointly with the espresso channel seeks to highlight the most relevant trends in the life of our defense-industrial complex and our armed forces. and now we are joined by valentyn badrak, director of the army, conversion and disarmament research center, military analyst and writer. mr. valentina, i congratulate you, i am glad to see and hear you. congratulations, mr. serhiy, as always. very glad to be invited. just before the program, you and i discussed the fact that the war is changing now and each side is trying to use the advantages of technology in in one or another manifestation, and the one who adapts faster, in principle, he really, well, has

a certain opportunity to overtake the opponent , and the one who does the work on mistakes faster in the same way, well, has a profit from this work, so i would like you now so generally assessed the modern battlefield, which is of decisive importance on it, and as an additional issue with our air defense, does this chase of technologies also take place there, where each of the histories tries to find the weaknesses of the other, well, i will probably start with the general field battle, and since september, the military actually... signaled from the front that a war of drones had begun, and on the one hand, this was caused by the lack of artillery systems already in ukraine, and in the country itself, by the aggressors in russia , modern and

er very, i would say er those smart munitions that could be used very actively, and actually, immediately there was a competition in how these drones were going to be modernized, and we saw very serious things that were happening, that is, the dynamics of technological changes has increased since september 23, well just a few times, we also saw the creation of drones, fpv drones by self-capture of a target, targets. we also saw drones with thermal imagers, which was not the case before, but in a mass form, we can see now, just yesterday there was an interesting report that in russia they seem to have developed a communication system and are moving from pprf to dynamic

changes in its frequencies, and and it's supposed to make things very difficult for drones, but... that said, that said, the fpv efficiency of drones is estimated by the military to be somewhere between 10 and 40%, and they say it needs somewhere. somewhere around 10 drones to destroy, for example, a tank, and a lot of drones are lost, rap has a very active influence, and this is in new, even old, new technologies, from, say, shotguns that shoot down small things, drones, to, say, rebovsky rifles, very diverse technologies, interceptors are very active now. squirm, the americans have already purchased as many as 600 coyotes, and such interceptors, and

all this prompts experts to talk about certain changes. now there are opinions that, firstly, rap will influence more, secondly, there will be changes in in the sense that, for example, ground works will make up, well, the main part or the core. opportunities on the battlefield and already at the beginning of january, the ukrainians demonstrated several such interesting things, well, in particular, a kamikaze drone went as far as 4 km to the enemy and destroyed a bridge, this is a very similar trend, very interesting, shown by the deminers, who are literally in front of the enemy 100 m away yes to the enemy. can clear mines, and these are unmanned platforms, these are

very serious things, then the development of underwater drones, mini, even mini-submarines, these are all moments, and of course the development of aerial systems, for example, china created, interestingly, created a drone, it was literally reported in march, a drone that is capable of dividing into three by six other drones and creating a controlled swarm of drones , that is , these are very powerful ideas, powerful systems, but mainly what we have, what conclusion we have to draw, the conclusion is this, we are waging a combined war, in a combined war - it is when very valuable things collide with very cheap, but massive technologies , and we see that, we see that cheap mass technology. in the war of attrition they are beginning to dominate, we see the exhaustion

of the ukrainian air defense system, we see the exhaustion of the russian artillery, in fact, when drones surpass and increase the effect of work efficiency and perform, well, of course they do not perform the full spectrum, but only somewhere 30-40% artillery functions, but at the expense of dynamics, at the expense of... cheapness, one projectile, well , of course, it costs about 600-700 dollars for itself in the russian market there, but in our now one munition costs up to 8 thousand dollars, recently the namo company reported that it had increased to 800 dollars, at the beginning of the year nato concluded a contract where there were already 5.5 thousand dollars for one munition, i am not saying anymore. about smart munitions, which cost more than 60,000 dollars, one munition,

yes, and a drone alone costs 600 dollars, there, if it is more technological, it will still cost no more than 2-3 thousand dollars, but how exactly does this dynamic affect against anti-aircraft defense systems, you mentioned that ukrainian air defense is slowly depleting, probably due to the fact that the enemy is using shaheds there or more... cheap missiles, more expensive missiles are used for strikes for such important targets, how this dynamic affects the formation of russian strategy there offensive, our defense, when it comes to air defense systems? a very important point is connected with the creation of echeloned anti-aircraft defense and the creation, so to speak, of a sequence of targets, literally. today we read such and such an insider's report about yesterday and

that a ukrainian s-300 was shot down in odesa, hit by a drone, and according to the ukrainian military, this happened because they were not allowed to shoot down a drone that was above them, formally everything is correct , this reflects the essence of the problem itself, now ukraine has focused on the fact that... the world is looking for the patriots, the patriot systems, we know that the patriot missile costs from two to 4 million dollars, and now i will... return to the very madness, if it would be possible to take a significant amount to accumulate, yes to collect a significant amount the number of systems, say, the same skyranger, skynex with programmable ammunition, then in fact all the issues of enemy drones and a significant part of missiles, they would

take over, and then they would only deal with ballistics, say the same patriots. and, for example, by airplanes over long distances, there 50, 70 km from the front line, this is such an important point, the second important point is that you need to look more broadly at the market than only at the market of patriots, well, for example, let me remind you that the saudi arabia in february of this year during the exhibition concluded a new contract with south korea for 10 batteries. er, new, well, not quite the same new system, but a medium-range system, what is it called, chongung, yes, which can reliably shoot down missiles at a distance of 40 km, and such a system would also take over part of the tasks if b, for example, the european union, europe

could buy off, but the main issue with the patriots and... with other issues, with other systems, is that we faced a great, great egoism of the european countries, because they are now each of the countries thinks that they need to defend themselves, and ukraine, well, no matter what happens, it is telling that the president of moldova called on the leadership of the netherlands, yesterday there was this information, to hand over their batteries in... the country they have three batteries of patriots and not really not so vulnerable right now, right now, but today and now , we need to protect ukraine, i'm not talking about countries like greece, which are under the great influence of moscow and they are unlikely to hand over their batteries, but let's say the

same germany with ten of its batteries, well, a couple i could give a three. the same poland or romania, which have just purchased patriot systems, could, well, share the queue, yes, become, so to speak, in the second place, why, why is it important to prove to europe, because otherwise they themselves will have to fight against the enemy with these systems russia, when it attacks the attacks on the european nato countries, well, of course, and of course the purchase... of patriot systems outside the european union, outside europe, it can also be, and, well, again yesterday, yesterday's speech by prem japan's mr. kishida in the united states congress, where he urged no to give up the leadership of the united states,

and apparently he was hinting that the united states could also sell out. let's say there are 5-10 batteries out of 60 patriot batteries, but this is indicative of a very brave performance by the japanese, who are now, well, very strongly, so to speak, pressing for ukraine, yes, i understand that they have their own there, how many do they have 24 petrio batteries, they are unlikely to share theirs, primarily because of the very powerful danger from china, which has now increased by... times, but to influence partners, but now in the world is happening in such a regrouping of forces, and really, whichever side regroups faster, that side will have the advantages, and actually, all the strategic things will probably be decided by september 24th, maybe by october, and that

requires, well, very... dynamic changes in decision-making and their implementation, that is , the supply of these systems, which we are talking about now, so the conclusion is to divide not only patriot, but also other systems, and the second is to persuade to transfer not only what is there somewhere in warehouses, conditionally , warehouses, and to transfer what is currently in the troops, to share, then there is one more proposal for discussion, when russia struck gas storages, daggers, other systems, then this gave rise to this idea, maybe somehow ... to integrate the interaction of our air defense system and the defense system of poland, maybe this can be another such step to make the air defense shield over our

country more powerful, what do you think about such initiatives, decisions, proposals? the idea is certainly interesting, but i do not believe that nato will agree to such a move, because in fact, when it comes to the use of polish systems. directly from the territory of poland, then this will create a situation where in russia they will call what general mili, the former, former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, who is still listened to very strongly, warned about, he said, first of all, to prevent a kinetic clash of nato systems and russia. here exactly this will be, so to speak, a violation of this this this situation and de facto it will be considered that poland

entered the war, it would probably be much it would be better if a certain number of patriot systems were quickly transferred to the territory of ukraine, and then this would allow us to avoid just such a threat to us. although i say this from the perspective of the general panorama of the war, it would definitely be a much better decision for ukraine if the polish systems started to be knocked down, and even then we would feel more protected, and actually speaking, we would feel that nato, well actually supports us. not only with weapons, but also with very specific actions, then the intelligence data would be added, would be added even more protection of the ukrainian sky, of course this step

would be revolutionary, but so far i do not really believe in it, as regards strikes on our underground gas storages and power plants, and as regards... our strikes on russian refineries, on systems that process oil, in fact now the situation looks like a certain initial stage, and the result will depend on who will hold this scaling, i want to say that at the beginning of april, well, western analysts drew attention to the fact that... i started to beat is more aimed and uses, does not keep , does use very expensive

high-precision ballistic missiles for such purposes, and at the same time aims at weakly defended areas where it did not aim before, in fact, ukraine does the same, chooses fan-type attacks, such high-precision attacks, well, they are. there are already many targets for ukraine, there are already drones that fly 1,500 km, and ukraine is also doing it, but the question now is scaling, who will have time to scale these attacks and, let's put it this way, exhaustion, exhaustion of the enemy, because there are fully justified positions in because... what russia is also acting on the border, and the task that the kremlin is now setting concerns today, literally today, and the calculations are definitely on the swiss-

by-swiss dialogue for a serious conversation to begin in switzerland about freezing the war and great hopes that , that participation in this very... in this part of china can lead to positional gains for the kremlin, this is definitely a danger for us, and therefore this political part of the war is extremely connected with what is on the battlefield is happening, and therefore the fact that ukraine is accelerating the scaling of high-tech means of destruction and intelligence, this definitely... gives a certain impetus and certain hopes that at some stage ukraine, the defense forces will be able, even without the powerful participation of... the western coalition, well

, to hold the front and to some extent destroy the russian defense potential, but the exhaustion of our infrastructure remains a really big problem, because we know that only the strikes from march 22 to today have caused more damage ukraine, than the whole winter before that, and until march 22. mr. valentin, thank you very much for your explanations, for those accents that relate to the directions of changes in our air defense system, thank you very much for your important comments, i would like to remind you that this was valentin badrak, director of the center for the study of army conversion and disarmament, a military analyst and writer , then we will talk about where ukraine can find these patriot air defense systems, we know about the initiative of britain and germany to find such air defense systems

for ukraine. we will talk about this in the second part of our program after the advertising and information block. greetings, this is svoboda live on radio svoboda. we have already come to the snake itself. the following shots may shock you. news from the scene. live kamikaze drone attacks. political analytics, objectively and meaningfully. there is no political season. exclusive interviews, reports from the hottest spots. the front freedom life, frankly and impartially. you draw your own conclusions. channel espresso and ukrainian pen present the project of their own name with myroslaya barchuk. series conversations with ukrainian and western intellectuals who interpret and comment on the most relevant social discussions. what news will be analyzed by the guests of the project

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countries, in particular germany and great britain volunteered to help with the search for the patriot air defense system, and before that, the president of ukraine and the minister of foreign affairs talked about a certain number of air defense systems, which is at least necessary to cover our cities from russian attacks. and now we are joined by a military expert, editor-in-chief of the information and consulting company defense express, oleg katkov, mr. welcome to the espresso channel. good afternoon, thank you for the invitation. i will start with the president's statement, which was made a few days ago, where it was said that ukraine needs at least 25 patriot systems, then the foreign minister talked about at least seven patriot air defense systems . please explain to our viewers how many we have now, and this 7.25, is it... significant

numbers compared to what other countries in europe have that have these weapons? regarding the number of patriots in ukraine, we can rely on exclusively public information that has been repeatedly announced, it is about the fact that ukraine received one patriot from the usa, one more from germany, germany and the netherlands also collected two, and with we are already talking about three, but the president of ukraine volodymyr zelenskyi also has several. months ago said that ukraine got two more air defense systems that can shoot down anything, which was not the case, but the fact is that when it comes to an air defense system that can shoot down anything, it means that it can effectively counter , both directly to ballistic missiles and to aerodynamic targets, such as aircraft, under this category.