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verdict with serhii rudenko from now on in a new two-hour format, even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests: foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you you can express your opinion on the evil of the day with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and turn on, the verdict of isergy rudenko, every weekday from 20 to 22 at espresso. greetings, good evening, i'm myroslav barchuk, this is a self-titled program, a joint project of the espresso tv channel and the ukrainian penclub. today we will talk about oleksandr dovzhenko. oleksandr dovzhenko, well, for me, at least, he is perhaps the most significant and, at the same time, the most controversial figure of ukrainian soviet culture. on the one hand, this... this is a volunteer in the unr army, v

petlyurivets, and on the other hand, this is a person who glorifies the january uprising at the arsenal plant. on the one hand, he is a ukrainian, and this is visible in his films, on the other hand, he is a person who admires and perhaps even befriends joseph stalin, at least he considers stalin his savior. today we will talk about these paradoxes, about this tornness of the eternal dovzhenko with... with my guest olena honcharuk, head of the dovzhenko center. greetings olena, thank you for coming to talk. thank you, you know, the topic seems to me very much important, because it seems to me that we have not yet developed the language of such an honest narrative, as it is with regard to dovzhenko. pen and i recently visited dovzhenka's homeland in the village of sosnytsia. in the chernihiv region, we were in his house and

the museum workers told us a story of his life in short, and here is what i notice, and the story is like this, in short, dovzhenko was born, there was such a family, 14 children, two children survived, then he studied, then he works, then he becomes a volunteer in petlyurivska army, and suddenly once, and already in warsaw, he is campaigning for emigrants to return to soviet ukraine, in warsaw and berlin. what happened, we understand what happened, this is how we understand the arrest, we understand that he was saved by ivan blakytny, yes, that he had some problems with the soviets and the bolsheviks, but what happened inside dovzhenko, that he was suddenly

behind the eyes a few years, he suddenly changed himself, gave up on himself, or whatever happened to him. well, it was the time of his youth, and dovzhenko was actively searching, and he is a person who is very open to everything around happens, he got to europe, another world opened up to him, where he mastered, he studied art there, yes, he learned to draw, in general, divzhenko was extremely talented in various arts. and he wrote, he drew, although it is not very popular, but one of his first steps in cinematography, well, it was just movie posters, very witty and so very funny, ee dovzhenko later became a director, that is

, i think that europe i was very fascinated by him and he had this contrast to the village life that you mentioned, so earlier and eh... well, that's a burden people in the village, in the province, he was extremely sensitive to this, if there were two children left in the family out of 14, then it is obvious that they were very unhappy, but dovzhenko had a very natural attraction to beauty, he was extremely sensitive to this, and somewhere it may have been nurtured by the nature in which he grew up, and i think europe reinforced it. you are now talking about the fact that the soviet authorities gave him, as it were, brought him into the european world, gave him the opportunity to get this education, and he sincerely, being a petliurian at first, yes, but he sincerely believed

the soviet government and started working for the soviet government, right? well, i wouldn't say that the soviet authorities gave him that, after all, he took advantage of these opportunities himself, and they were his natural abilities. but the soviet government is actually an amazing construct, i think that it is all important to us, even now, to deconstruct and understand this architecture, which made it possible to mislead a very large number of thinking, intelligent people, because my opinion is that the midians sincerely believed in the idea that the soviet government. offered, er, it was a sincere belief in industrialization, in industrial progress, in the victory of machines, and the avant-garde was very technological and futuristic, and that’s why artists really, it’s like some kind of delusion that

really fascinates and pulls, and that’s why dovzhanek really, he was one of those who actually believed and constructed. uh, that is, but for this he had to give up his identity, because on the one hand it was like, i understand about progressiveness, yes, what you are talking about and about some such perspective that this ideology opened up for people, but on the other hand it was clearly about identity, so it was hostile to his identity, i'll quote you now from the diary, which are very famous words, it's a dialogue with the father, he says, he asks who... we dad, we not russians, no, not russians, who are we, who are we, my son, the khalmy, those who process the bread, and dovzhenko writes, we were the only people in europe who did not know who he was, that is, dovzhenko very clearly understands that, about identity and about the hostility of this world, his

identity, what year he is in, these are diaries, this is a memory of, i understand that it's in gluhiv gymnasium or school, it's from that time. the diary was already written later, that is, we see that davzhenko is ukrainian all the time, so even in the worst times he is himself... he tries to put these ukrainian narratives somewhere, so, that is, it seems to me that when he says , that i entered the revolution from the wrong door, yes, this, through the wrong door, so what is it, was it sincere or was it just such a lifeline? well, from the quote you read, you can see his feeling of shame, as if it was the only one. e some country or nation which if a retard, that is, there is this, well, shame

on the kind of person you are, and in his films, this duality is also felt, yes, on the one hand, something so new, beautiful, which is approaching and where we must strive, and on the other hand, these simpletons in embroidered shirts, from which you came out, and... for which you have a very great love and sentiment, but this is a shame, that is , it is something that you grow up with, it is colonial, by the way, i read about dovzhenko yesterday, and i saw that he, he was already close to waplite, when he was in this kharkiv period and the kyiv period, and he there prohart also writes about the fact that these people are very ethnographic. very archaic, uncivilized, and it is he who speaks for a moment

about the waver, the opposite, that is, about all these people, and he says that it seems to me that sometimes i come to the evening, and it seems to me that i am at parties, that very much is all ethnographically, this is about what you are talking about, about this feeling of ethnography as archaic, as one's own culture, as something archaic, or am i wrong, i think that we dealt with this in our childhood or youth, these are years the 80s and the 90s, when, well, you feel that you are a provincial, as it were, that the world is already somewhere far away, and, well, we can observe, living in the provinces, that something is happening in moscow, something is happening in kyiv, they're very far from you, what's going on abroad, it's just another planet in general, and i think that... his, well, his genius and his talent, he really, well, he wanted something more, but he's not

only, i i think he wanted it for himself, but he wanted to return it back, that is, so that it would help the society from which he came actually came out, he still could not sever his connection with him, and therefore with vinegar, i will start with this film, dovzhenko is shooting with vinegar, the screenwriters are mike johanson and the famous otaman yurko tyutyunnyk, and this is still, this is the 29th year, yes, even before the repressions, and it is either happening or will happen, as i understand it, in kharkiv, the ied trial, ugh, and dovzhenko is shooting such a colossal, multi-layered, fundamental story about... 2,000 years of ukrainian history, and here we actually are

we see that it works and his ukrainian identity is revealed.

how do you watch this film today, what is it about, what is it to us from those times, says dovzhenko, how do you watch it today? and i would say that this particular film, i understand that you decided to take a trilogy, yes, his, his stellar tapes. first of all, this is a very interesting artistic and technical experiment, because in this film in zvanihor dovzhenko used a lot of such camera and editing techniques, which were innovative, because there were combined shootings, because after all, he tells a myth, and it is so little if fabulous

history, and this fabulousness, it is probably in... characteristic of many films about ukraine as a certain mythical territory, detached from reality, into which, for which it is necessary to create a new world and bring it, from the outside, because it is already preparing us for that , that in the films of dovzhenko and many of his contemporaries, there kavaleridze, for example, or kordyum, will appear this time, well, the way to... finding a ukrainian, but this is no longer quite a ukrainian, but this, this is already a soviet person, which comes in its place, that is, it is the original one the ukrainian we see in the film is ashamed, as it were, and someone must replace him, and rebirth, that is, it is like this, we see it as a rebirth, it is like

a rebirth, but at the same time he really begins to model some new reality, i.e. ... this is a function of cinema, which is peculiar to the soviet, soviet space, and this film, despite the fact that this rebirth seems to be visible, it is the same, it was repressed and also banned, because of the fact that through mykohansen and through yurk tyutyunnyk, right i understand, yes or no, he is a plus it was already, although it was the 27th year, this is still, this is still the period of the wolf, the wolf in the 30th year at... ceased to exist, by the 30th year, we have to explain to the audience what a wolf is? uh, wow, this is the all-ukrainian photocinema management, the easiest way to define it as ukrainian hollywood, and well, this will not be an understatement, because the all-ukrainian photocinema management absorbed all the infrastructure necessary for

the creation and production of films, that is, there were three film studios there. had their own film schools and later the film institute appeared, had their own editions, er, authors and people who worked within the uvku, they, it was part of the kharkiv cultural elite, they grew out of the literary and theatrical tradition, because les kurbes actively cooperated with the uvku, er, that is, literally eight years from the 22nd to the 30th year, it was very progressive. an institution that developed on the go, but in the 1930s it was banned, and ukraine, a film that was already completely subordinated to moscow, appeared. the uniqueness of vevku also lies in the fact that it operated autonomously, that is , the policy of filming was determined locally, in ukraine, in odessa, in kyiv, er, and therefore, in

principle, prominent names of film makers. they are connected precisely with the all-ukrainian photocinema management, and when the working atmosphere in moscow became unbearable, brothers kaufman and dzigavertov fled here, ugh, and they continued their activities here, which of course, well, the wolf was enriched at the expense of very unusual personalities , it collaborated with foreign directors and cameramen, and dovzhenko really liked working with josef rona. a german cameraman who, in principle, became his right-hand man many projects, and then, and then it was banned as a result of which, as a result of the so-called coming into force, stalin, the chief producer of the soviet union, stepped in and himself began to determine already, i was so struck by how much

he, how tangential he was, how much he was active in, so to speak, in... and in ordering movies, and this is what it really is, well, something that still needs some kind of very comprehensive research, such as who, who was this producer of the creation of the first wolf, that it well, it shot so well that it worked so well, because now we see rather a degradation in the management of the cinema, and we see that a lot, well, the cinema is now based on... independent initiatives, that is , the representatives of the state rather bring confusion and uncertainty there, i planned it, we and we are definitely with you about this is the last question at the end. they had a policy

of ukrainization, coronaization, films were shot in ukrainian, and the dovzhenko center managed to find ukrainian intertitles for the film zemlya and restore them, because they were mostly lost, a few of them were preserved there, and the center restored them a few years ago, so we got ours. that our films are in the ukrainian language, but in the 30th year the holiday ended, the wolf was closed, and the ukrainian films that were shot on the territory of ukraine, which were the yalta, odesa and kyiv film studios, were all sent to moscow, in white columns, in the guest film fund of russia, where they originated, the negatives are still there, and ukraine later received these films by purchase. positive copies, that is, they are either in foreign archives, that is, it all collapsed along with the curtailment of ukrainization, in principle, yes, clearly yes, behind this was a great producer

of nations, who already had other ideas and visions about how everything should develop, and we will talk about it later, but we have an arsenal on our turn, in arsenal is a film, and for me, for me, it’s actually arsenal and shors, for me these are two films that precisely show dovzhenka’s internal rupture, arsenal, let me remind you, is a film about the bolshevik uprising at the arsenal factory in kyiv, when the bolsheviks, the workers , so they rebelled against the authorities of the unr, against, against the troops of the ukrainian people's republic, which actually suppressed this uprising, and dozhenko was in this army.

elena, i read that dovzhenko even served in the same root of the black haydamaks, which dispersed this bolshevik uprising, so at least he had a hat with a black brim hanging in his parents' house, ugh, and now, excuse me, i'm being rude now, maybe this is a very rude analogy, but for me to make such a film is an arsenal, i'm not talking about its artistic value now, yes, i'm talking about this internal gap e dovzhenka, yes, for for me to shoot such a film, arsenal or shors e petlyurovskyi soldier, is the same as for our veteran to shoot about giv now. a movie about givi or motorola, well, it’s like that, i’m deliberately exaggerating, just what must have happened to a person, how could he turn

inside like that and what is he for, what is this for, what is this kind of internal self-destruction or what is it so, well, here i will probably still lack details about what happened to him. but we see that in the arsenal there are already subtitles in the russian language, and this is happening, if this is the universalization of the language cinema, yes, and it is necessary to reach as many people as possible, and we see in the frame very often crowds appear in the frames, and in several of dovzhenko's tapes we observe this, so when there is a crowd of people who are attentively... listening to someone , and we may not even see the speaker himself, yes, but it is very important for us to see what is happening on the faces of these people, how are they there or disbelief or

vice versa? and these things are also in paintings, because in the national art museum in 16 in the 15th year there was an exhibition of heroes inventory attempts, the museum then investigated the construct of the hero, how it is formed, and after the maidan this research changed, because well , the maidan affected the way we look at our heroes, and we decided to be more... so discreet and give the audience the opportunity to evaluate , and here is one of the spaces, these were portraits of lenin, which are kept in the art museum, they have a certain artistic value, but this is a very interesting subject for research, and there were several canvases where lenin is only standing with his back, kind, you can see him only from behind, well, we understand from the lack of hair who it is, but in front of him stands a youth who is inspired, who is on fire, whose

eyes are burning. so excited, and by this reaction, that is , this is the reaction of a witness who is passionate about something, and it seems to me that dovzhenko received, perhaps caught this wave, that he can influence something to change, and how do you explain to yourself why he he shows so scathingly, they carefully chose this moment where he shows the members of the central council, these bourgeois, this is all, this... so emphasized, disgusting, yes, he shows these people, and yuriy shevelyov wrote in letters to roman korogotsky, which means that he wrote that this is a compensatory mechanism of self-justification due to the humiliation of the presenters of the program competitions. and this, i will quote now: why are those scumbags from the second camp needed in the arsenal, and why are they so

sleazy, sleazy? so much so, so disgusting, and here we have the key, because they did not manage to win, it turns out that they are to blame for the lost, for the lost war, therefore, this is not a tribute to official demands, but the sincere truth that has been revealed and suffered, i am all in hymns, but i i'm not responsible for that, but those misfits are responsible, and shevilyov says it's ... dostoevism, which is very close to the truth, is this interpretation of dovzhenko close to you? it is very interesting and, perhaps, it is important even for us in a broader sense for understanding ourselves, and here i cannot help but think about if kvn, which is present in our lives, yes, what

we are and... we are an intellectual some part does not like him, but a large part of society likes it, it is like such self-mockery and self-mockery, here it's really such a valuable idea that we laugh at them because they didn't win, if they couldn't with their, i don't know, their background, they wouldn't be able to prevail, and that's why they have to be portrayed like that, even though... . he was always ironic, he, his first films, he wanted to make comedies, the first films there were vasya the reformer and yagidka kohannya, these are typical, by the way, silent films of the european style, because in zvenigore and in arsenal and in zemlya dovzhenko is already inventing his own language, but these two films vasya the reformer and yagidka, they were so very typical with makeup. these were urban

stories, they were very playful stories, but really there were people from such a bourgeois class, they looked mean, not very likeable, and on the posters dovzhenko also depicted bourgeois in the claws of the soviet government, he also depicted them as unsympathetic and unattractive, and so on i actually remember his kharkiv period, when he also drew political cartoons on the unattractive petliura and vennichenko in the publishing house of the herald. skoropadskyi, i.e. people who were allegedly close to him in terms of value. but let's look at the next film zemlya, which is certainly the most famous, i think, ukrainian film in the world today , the world fame was brought by dovzhenkoi, a film about collectivization, which was supposed to praise collectivization, but showed the absolute.