and the answer to this, to this riddle is precisely given by this kyiv apocrypha, according to which mykola makarenko, one of the leading ukrainian archaeologists, art historians, he studied in st. petersburg, finished, in my opinion, well , the first ones, somewhere in the early years of xx century, in any case in 1910 he already headed the antiquities department of the vermitage, and in 1919, when independent ukraine appeared, he came , so he started working, i don’t remember whether with skoropadskyi or with petliura, well, in any case, so he came , came to kyiv to build his native ukraine, a native of the cossack family, he is from the poltava region, zlokhvytsi and the subject of his great work. measure has always been

ukrainian, by the way, he is a melitopol cemetery, this is also his work, i.e. mariupol, mariupol cemetery, maripol mariupol, lord, i am sorry, yes, that means wooden churches, descriptions of wooden churches, he was a specialist from byzantines from antiquity and byzantinistics, so only those works of his st. petersburg period have actually survived, because the main... period of his creative activity was the kyiv period - that's all what went under the knife during his arrest. he was arrested in 1934, uh, so to get rid of him from kyiv at that time, because he just launched a colossal activity and crazy activity in order to stop this langbard project, slow it down, just lie there, i don't know, as a martyr under the wheels, as you like, he praised the telegram.

explaining to stalin, that is, the value of these masterpieces from the fatherland and why they are needed, justifying and so on, it is clear that no one listened, watched or read, so according to the urban legend, he came out, it is known that he went against the french communists, which means that it did not work out with the communists, and the version is that he somehow went against romain roland, and romain roland, as you know, is comrade stalin's best friend, whom comrade stalin listened to and... rumen roland found this move and trick, well, makarenko tipped him off, that is, after asking the great leader of the world proletariat, about the fact that there were rumors that they were going to demolish st. sophia's cathedral in kyiv, and that means, but it would not be bad to keep it in the interests of soviet-french friendship, because it is also a monument of french.

it is also important for the french people, because the queen of france was married there, well, she was married in reims, of course, but this is just the case when the lie of salvation, you know, just came in handy, well, in any case, are they known from that or do they exist from that excuse, i only read about it once, it seems in the magazine ukraine in the era of perestroika, if there are any documentary evidence about this, if... they are left, then they are in moscow and it is not known when they will be handed over to us, but in any case, it means that this man was arrested for trying to save mykhailivskyi and sofya, he was exiled, somewhere there, that is, east there to the russian hinterland, then he was arrested a second time and shot for some reason, well, how was it done in those the times in 1938 already means there was some

kind of cadet conspiracy or something else, well, in any case, they got rid of him, where his grave is unknown, and the main thing is that all his legacy is from this very kyiv period, and this kyiv period of his began , that too it is important that when he arrived in 1919, he became the director of the khanenko museum, then it was called the vuaan art museum, the all-ukrainian academy of sciences, and actually, as the director of the khanenko museum, he started a very... active activity to return the khanenko collection to kyiv, which was exported during the first world war to moscow and st. petersburg, petrograd. listen, that's all, that's all how ties the story in such a tight knot, that's a fantastic fact that you said, i didn't know about it, but i know another story, i just want to finish it now, you they mentioned the mariupol cemetery, and i will simply explain that... where was this cemetery when

the soviet authorities in the 1930s began to build the industrial giant azovstal, known to us later, then after the tragedy that unfolded there... happened in 22 year, then at this place they found old burials, which are several thousand years old, it was actually called the mariupol burial ground, and literally several months were given for archaeological research, and it was mykola makarenko who unearthed some colossal treasures there on the spot of an ax, stone, some parts for a mace and so on. and all these historical things were stored in the mariupol museum of local history, which was destroyed by the same russians in the same year 22, and what they did not finish, they simply stole, in fact, these, in particular, these treasures, they

stole with them in their own museums and that's all, i say, it's just an amazing story that shows that it's all one, yes, what we 're talking about now, that's all... the same historical, the same historical knot, well that is , if we put the stories right answers, correct questions, i'm sorry, then we immediately receive the correct answers, where one follows the other, just a whole, you know, he pulled the thread and at once the whole knitting of an intricacy of lies on a moto in not 100 years, here it is all at once dissolves easily, so you know as soon as possible. you just have to pull the string in the right place, and makarenko is that string, you know, which, well, first of all, first of all, this, what is called, well, god commanded, you know, here is this street, and another street, about a street , which

is located between, just between sofia and mykhailivskyi, which means, whose destruction, by the way, was also blocked, and baroque. the 18th-century barrack refectory of the church remained there, it was overgrown, it is the only thing that remained of those ruins, but, but the langbard was arrested as a result, you understand, the project was blocked, so it all got stuck, and so we have now this palimpsest, by the way, about which very few kyiv tour guides talk, when in fact it is so, well, it is actually incredibly interesting standing like this. come, those who are not from kyiv, if you come to kyiv, stand up facing mykhailivskyi, and on the left hand side of you there will be this very corner of this langbard house, that is, this blocked long building, here and at the gate, there at the entrance

gate, which leads to an authentic, not destroyed small refectory, right there... a small the bust of mykola makarenko, established by the efforts of ivan dzyuba at the very beginning, means that, like all 60-year-olds, ivan, like all 60-year-olds, ivan dzyuba also had this story close to his heart, when he was the minister of culture, he managed to introduce makarenko to the kyiv space, and the street we are talking about, it is exactly between sofia and mykhailivskyi, and it is called it. for a moment, alla tarasova, people's artist of the ussr, mkhat artist, five-time winner of the stalin prize, the question of what she is doing there, what alla tarasova is doing there, and here's a note, here's another knot for you, ms. miroslava, because in general

this was historically troitsky lane, and even in the years of our childhood, it was troitsky lane, and it was renamed to... tsyala tarasova, at the time of the shcherbytsky russification sweep of kyiv, that's how many at that time unfinished historical buildings of kyiv were blown up, that's how many were blown up then, forgive the museums, i remember how all the adults mourned, mourned the authentic home of nechuy levytskyi. on pushkinska street in the courtyard of the lesya ukrainka museum, and how a restaurant was later built there , and there is no museum building, we have something levitsky in the center of kyiv, the most kyivan writer can be said to have described kyiv

of the 19th century, who left us , well, in the end , everyone knows about kozhumyakyaks, it's for two hares were then reworked by starets for the theater, but, well, more so, so to speak , of kiev’s kiev... and than the one who gave the levy’s no, no, no traces, nothing left, so let’s go back to mykola, to mykola makarenko and to of your petition, because... and then it was called alla tarasova street, and by the way, as it turned out, there is a rather powerful lobby, which means that the presence of this same ava tarasova in the kyiv area is supported, but we have to do our own thing, we have our own to do, we will now show the qr code, this is very important, in fact, we will show the qr by which you can vote to name this street, which... one way or another is subject to de-russification and decolonization, to name it after mykola

makarenko, who fought and gave his life to return both cathedrals to us, but as far as i'm concerned, it's simple it is our duty, not only the people of kyiv, but all ukrainians, at least all those who consider kyiv their capital, and this would be a very nice and symbolic gesture for purification. kyiv space, and then further, so stop me, what is it called, because i am simply carried away, on this topic, and oksano, thank you, thank you very, very much, it is important, you have said enough important things, we will meet with you separately and we will talk, because i understand that the topic is not exhaustive, one way or another, i ask everyone or for these by qr code to go and support oksana zabushko's petition. regarding the renaming of ala tarasova street to mykola makarenko street, or simply through

kyiv digital, it is very easy for kyiv residents to go in and do it in a few seconds. thank you very much, ms. oksana, oksana zabushka, thank you for including yours. thanks and we'll be back we return to the conversation with vakhtan kibuladze. thank you. vagtanche, what do you think of this story with mykola makarenko, with the fact that he is still not in... the space of the city, it is a pity that it is, and it is not only, it is not only for a single moment like this, if it is from the time of dzyuba, this question has already been raised, it means that 300 years have already passed, and there is such an opinion, i am not a historian, but that we were brought up already in post-soviet times with the idea that churches were blown up by the bolsheviks as religious buildings, but there was one more a very important motive, what about what... mrs. oksana said that it was being destroyed it is kyiv, these stone-built churches, because

there were more churches in kyiv than in any russian city, and it was really the orthodox capital, yes, no matter how you put it, that is, there could not be more stone-built churches in kyiv churches than in moscow, let's say, and it was so, so it was not only a bolshevik policy, it was again an imperial russian policy to destroy the cultural heritage of our native city. and what happened to mykhailivskyi is just one of the stories that happened then. you know that it hurts me a lot, you and i were recently in sosnytsia in chernihiv region, in the oleksandr dovzhenko museum, and there they told us that you can't talk, well, it's like, you can't talk about him, that he's an ambiguous artist, so look, in the 31st year, when... the questions started to talk about the destruction of mykhailivskyi,

oleksandr dovzhenko gives his voice and look at what he writes, he writes the following: "i think that when the problem of the construction of the cultural park is solved, mykhailivskyi monastery asks to leave." he lived his age. it is absolutely unacceptable to even think that anyone needs these walls. what to do with it, here's how talk about it? he then repents. at the end of life, yes, but how to talk about it, because oleksandr dovzhenko is part of our cultural canon, absolutely, but here we started with the canon, yes, and dovzhenko is not only a film director, he is a writer, and a very cool writer, and well, enchanted gum, maybe we will mention it, and it is obvious that oleksandr dovzhenko belongs to our canon, it is obvious that, say, a film from... land, despite the fact that, in my opinion, there is a legitimization of the holodomor, in fact we are talking about that we do not say, but there it is

there is also, and it is no coincidence that he received the stalin prize, as far as i know, precisely for this film, but dovzhenko cannot but belong to our canon, after all, any artist is a rather controversial figure, that is why we admire this art, because well, such one-dimensional template figures, they do not create interesting ones. art, but what came to my mind was when i read andruhovich's book lover of justice, he and i met right after that at the zaporizhia toloka, and i told him we... sat, and i said: listen, it seems to me that you did a very important thing, you, in this book there is such a message that is very important for me, and what is this book about? this is a book about criminals, yes, about great criminals in our history, yes, and i say that for me, besides the literary value of this book, there is an important, important political message,

a politically historical message, politically, historically and culturally the message that we have to create more than just a pantheon of our heroes. as well as the bestearies of our criminals, we have to do it ourselves, they should not come to us and tell us who is who, russians or others europeans or americans, or anyone, anyone, no, we ourselves have to speak, this is a part of our history, and what's more, it often happens that in one period, this is a hero, and in another period, the same man, such things are assumed, and we ourselves have to speak about it. and in many ways what is imposed on us, first of all by the russians, why, because we simply have a vacuum, we have not talked about our traumas, and we, and where we do not have a position, the enemy enters there and begins to manipulate, the same for long-suffering women, listen, well, anton robovych will tell you now, the director of the institute of national memory,

here's bulgakov and here's him, actually... he says that it's that he should be included in the bestiary, in the list, in the bestiary of criminals, but he says that bulgakov is needed and we should talk only in kyiv, because if he sinned in some way, yes, then he decided here, don't you think that bulgakov is such a character that he should be included in this list, no, bulgakov is obviously not our character, bulgakov himself because i said i said that it is necessary to... bulgakov the emperor, the most important thing, as far as i'm concerned, his, well, if you take his portrait, he's an imperial writer, and, and, we're not an empire, and we're not, we don't claim to be an empire, we claim to be a liberal democracy , i hope so, after all, well, this is how i see our country and what the struggle is for , in the end, but we do not want to be either part

of the empire or the center of the empire, bulgakov is an emperor, a xenophobe, he is not just a ukrainophobe, bulgakov is a xenophobe, he is a chauvinist , he hates everything non-russian, and when these manipulations take place, they say, it is not possible to identify the author with his hero, but you can’t, this is from the position of literary studies, it’s not very correct, but all the same, the heroes speak partly from the author, besides, take, take his works of art, take his caucasian diaries, fierce hatred for the caucasus, what a miracle, he did not live there practically, he... he hardly knew the caucasus, but he hates it, and this is an absolutely xenophobic, chauvinistic and characteristic position for russians, it is the same today, to the caucasus, to ukraine, to moldova, to the baltic countries and further, further, further. that's why to distinguish? bulgakov is not just our writer, he is a russian writer, and he is a very dangerous writer, and precisely because

he is a talented writer, there are no questions, yes, he is even more dangerous, but there are two points here . when they talk about bolgakov, it pisses me off, let's say, why are we fighting with the authors of white guard, which is obviously ukrainophobic for me, and no matter what they write, no matter what they say, this is a ukrainophobic novel, i remember when you mentioned that we went to sosnytsia, and pena and i were once in kherson, and we met there with the director of the kherson theater, oleksandr kniga, and he told us when he was arrested. sbeshniks for the first time, when they entered his office and saw the russian literature there, they told him: you are reading the right books, and the second question was: are you stationing the white guard? well , these idiots did not understand that it is possible to stage the days of the turbines, because the days of the turbines is a play, and the white guard is a novel, but they know that the white guard is a chauvinistic russian novel, and today it is absolutely

embedded in russian propaganda, that's why bulgakov obviously hated kyiv, he treated kyiv, ukraine, petlyura, in general, the idea of ​​our independence comes with hatred, he puts into the mouth of the white guard, remember, admiration for the bolsheviks, why, because these are russians, this horde the russians are coming to kyiv, and what the ant did in kyiv was practically a bucha scaled to the size of kyiv, kyiv was a generation in blood, and what the russians repeated in bucha is the same, well, that's already a bucha this is the name for all their crimes, and you started talking about what makes you angry. listen, for some reason we don't talk about the city of pidmogilny, but a modernist novel, really modernist, and i'll tell you why we don't, because we don't know, well , we, we know, no, i say. we, as a society in a broad sense, and those that we have not read, we do not know domantovych's little girl with a bear, we do not know

dr. serafikus domonovich or other kyivan texts, so the only kyivan text that we have is bulgakov's text the city, the quivering star mars, yes, but even if you compare, i'm not a literary critic and here stones may fly in my direction, but in my opinion white guard is a skillfully written novel, but this... the novel is very secondary, in my opinion, but it is not an experimental novel, instead, the city is an experimental, then a modernist novel, well , let literary critics criticize me for this, if they do not agree with me, i think so, like it, don't like it, then another question, this is a ukrainian-language modernist novel about our city, another question is interesting, there is another russian-language novel about kyiv, which was written a native of kyiv who loves kyiv is in his native city, in his native city of nykrasovo. why do these bolhakovites, yes, these fans of russian-speaking kyiv, do not mention the fact that in nykrasovo only the shield hangs, it seems, in the passage where he lived, there is no museum,

there are no mentions, despite the fact that in the native garden it is written with great love for kyiv, and if there are any fans of russian literature still left here, then let them get along better with viktor nikrasov, why not viktor nikrasov, because bulgakov, in spite of him, seems to... you are bolshevism and anti-communism, he entered in the russian imperial canon, absolutely inscribed, in fact, he sought to be inscribed, that is why he writes about stalin, batum, and, he, he, he, a sycophant who tries to fit into this new communist canon, and does not fit in, yes, and to things that are interesting, bulgakov on the 21st, will happen, well, correct me if i'm not right, on the 21st, when he flees, he flees to moscow, although the white emigration, which ... he sings, does not flee to moscow, the white emigration is fleeing, and he has a play about the fact that the white emigration was not stalin's favorite, and it is fleeing where, it

flees to paris, to europe, and nikrasov in the 70s, when it was much more difficult to leave the soviet union, he leaves and he lives out his life in paris, in exile, not in the soviet union, because he did not fit into this imperial canon, bulgakov is wonderful. a chauvinist, like a xenophobe, and he belongs there, so here is the problem we started talking about, bulgakov is definitely a russian writer, and he is definitely a very dangerous russian writer, that is, this is not our bestiary, no, this is not our bestiary, nikrasov - he is a russian writer, but he loves kyiv, he writes about kyiv with love, he writes a very ambiguous novel, in general, i don't know how it can be because of the fact that he received the stalin prize for being in the trenches of stalingrad. he was given the opportunity to print, to print this novel, which was then completely destroyed, and read it, i do not want to spoil who has not read it,

but again, despite the fact that nikrasov is a kyivan who writes with love about kyiv, this part of russian literature, and this is how it should be treated, and today it is also dangerous, precisely because it is talented it is written, and what about bolgakov too, but again , i know that there will be a scream from the fans. it seems to me that he is generally a very overrated writer, he is the number one star only in this russian corner of world literature, because those who hang around with the master and marguerite, the master marguerite, and, well, please read satan’s elixirs of hoffmann, read the angel of the western window of mac , it seems to me that all of us read it very young, for example, when i read master margarita in the second year of university, i was of course, i am impressed, as well as the white guard, but... but maybe it is worth re-reading it, this is how you re-read it, no, so that you, so that you understand, yes, that is, when you, i, when i re-read, i re-watched , i realized that

it is not as strong as it seemed to me at the time, that is, for a 20-year-old child, and a young person, it can be wow, and then you understand, it is like a steppe wolf hermange, 20 years you capture, but then, the steppe wolf should be read in the german original, this is another belief. but bulgakov is a masterful writer, there is no question, but he is not a genius there humanity, but he is very overrated in our country, because he is not so well-known anymore, and why does he trigger so much, why does he trigger so much, why are there such storms, now was the conclusion of the institute of national remembrance, so regarding the inadmissibility of glorification, the screeching started again, as you say, the bulgakov museum immediately reacted, immediately all the networks, this one this one. this document could have provoked, i read it before going on the air, it is written in terrible language, such kandov, the conclusion of the institute of national

memory, that is, according to ... with which i agree, but how it is done and in the same place mostly the reaction, how it is done, but also the answer of the museum, you can find many internal contradictions there, i say again, we are a democratic country, despite the terrible war that russia is waging against us, and which russia is leading against us, and we cannot ban writers, the question is not whether we banned bolgakov or not, we are not going to come to private libraries and withdraw these books, are we? to burn the books of russian writers in the squares, as they do with ukrainian literature, like real nazis. the question is not that, the question is that bulgakov, which pushkin, is an imperial marker. there can be no monuments to these imperial writers on our streets. it can't be, i would, for example, the museum should be kept as a research center, or i would, for example, call it a museum of research, research of russian chauvinism, for example,

and bulakov chauvinist, chauvinist. but not only him, i imagine what the reaction would be, the leadership of this, could be terrible, but, well, i am radicalizing so much, a formula can be found, and researchers should investigate, in even such a metaphor was born to me once, what is russia, it is a plague barrack of history, but who should go into a plague barrack, well, to treat, why should we treat, doctors, risking health and life. in the same way, writers, philosophers, historians, social researchers, psychiatrists, even, yes, because i am certain that this is also a mental perversion, if a person proudly says that i am russian, well today i well, okay, but there are schizophrenics, there are maniacs, someone has venereal diseases, you need to see a doctor, yes if it is a man with pride, if he says

it with a sense of guilt. then, well, you can still listen to this person, but i have not met such a person, so it is necessary to investigate, one cannot not investigate, the enemy must be known, but it should not be a subject on our land, and when we erect monuments, when we name houses, when we open or preserve museums in honor of these people, we simply mark the presence of the russian empire here, which is already killing us physically, look, we have three minutes left, i can't help but ask about another initiative. written too in a very interesting language, so there is a position, there is such an initiative group that arose, as i understand it, in the bowels of the kyiv music academy, so we say, the tchaikovsky conservatory, and an initiative group was also created that says that it is necessary to return to ukrainian culture people who have ukrainian roots, despite the fact that they even

created imperial culture. for example, they talk about chekhov, aivazovsky, kuindzhi and, i quote, a descendant of the cossack family chayok tchaikovsky. there's a lot mixed up here, but it's just interesting to figure out what you're thinking about this initiative, because there are quite decent people who signed it, for example, akhtem seitablai, viktor yushchenko, and many other cultural figures, what do you think about this? well, first of all, we have to understand that if we treat questions of history as scientists, and this is a question of history, then the argument of ethnic origin is not scientific, it is some kind of primordialism, that ukrainianness is something that is given from birth, it blood and soil, well, then i'm not ukrainian, but i have very little ukrainian blood, so i'm a constructivist here, like thank god, a clear majority of our modern historians, and i repeatedly repeat this formula of benedict anderson, nations is

a narrative, nations and narrations. nations are products of the public imagination, and therefore it matters in what language we form these ideas, and it does not matter so much where a person was born, you can be born in ukraine, have a ukrainian surname and be a russian nazi, as we see many of the fugitives who are in moscow today , ethnic ukrainians, they are calling to kill us, is this not an initiative to just save the seagull, i think it is from commercially, i think that this is a commercial initiative in general, because you have to sell. this one is for foreigners, let’s say, there are those who want, i know, many chinese came to study, and tchaikovsky, yes, tchaikovsky is this label, but it’s a russian label, you can’t do anything with it, tchaikovsky, although it’s easier with literature, there’s a marker - it is language, with music it is more difficult, although again, why is it more difficult, the most famous operas of tchaikovsky, they are connected with russian plots, yes, let's not discuss it now, and with russian literature, and...