st. volodymyr university, which is now shevchenko university, where i have taught all my life and where i studied. but what does it mean that he is a ukrainian philosopher? no, he is not a ukrainian philosopher, he is a russian philosopher, but the bolsheviks killed him, tortured him, at first he was on the curtain, then, then he was shot, we can’t even know exactly where and how, but he is a victim of stalinist terror, obviously, but that he is not a russian philosopher, he is a russian philosopher, and he carries with him despite... that he belongs to the tradition mostly german-speaking and phenomenology, but he has all the signs of a russian philosopher, first of all, why? because he writes in russian, and berdyaev? berdyaev is also a russian philosopher, he is from kyiv, and this, but this is a russian philosopher, even more berdyaev, he has very dangerous works for us and for humanity in general, the russian idea, this is this is this kind of russian proto-fascism, practically, modern russian fascists are not. ..

the nazis, they rely on these ideas, in particular, although at the same time he has a work that is very important for us, the source of smyslusskogo communism, and where is he, where is he practically showing how russian communism grows out of russian orthodoxy, and how orthodoxy is connected with russian totalitarianism and ultimately terror, but it is precisely for this work that he is dragged into the pantheon, once again we have to understand what it means, you can't... not a totalitarian and not an authoritarian state, we can't ban some writer or artist or philosopher, but even more, we have to study the enemy. in general, i think that i repeat it more than once, that the main one is one of the main ones our problems are that we still do not have an institute of russia, we do not have an institute that would systematically study russia in all dimensions of this evil, history, politics, religion, economy, literature, philosophy, etc., there is only one. . initiatives in various

institutions, but there is no institute for the study of our main enemy, and this is necessary, we must study russian, russian must be the object of research, meticulous, meticulous research, but what should not be, russian cannot have subjectivity on to our land, what can't be allowed, yes, because, in fact, we had a russian institute, it was called something, but they are there with a breather. it was a project, a project, a project of the special services, and, as i understand it, a joint one of ours and the russians, yes, even when they were in the early 2000s or so, but this is not that at all, it was rather an institute of russians, ukrainians of russian friendship than the study of russia, we will now talk about a person who should definitely be returned to the national pantheon, first of all to the kyiv space, this person's name is mykola makarenko, he is an art critic, an archaeologist who, in fact, is

the savior of st. michael's and st. sophia's cathedrals in kyiv. oksana zabushko, a writer, is in touch with us. ms. oksana, i greet you, good evening. good day. ms. oksano, you created a petition on the website of the kyiv city council to honor mykola makarenko, and to rename one of the streets of kyiv, which is right between sofiivskyi and mykhailivskyi. assembly, named after mykola makarenko. tell me a few, please. i am sure that many people still do not know about mykola makarenko. please tell me what kind of man this is why is it so important to honor his memory and bring back his memory? well, you know, this is an old story, and i would say it has been on my heart for a long time. i think i saw your post on facebook, ma'am. glory and it is clear to us

, the children of the kyiv intelligentsia of the 70s, this is a test of what we grew up with, this is the oral history that was left to us where the written one was taken away from us, where the documents were taken away from us, and in the case of mykola makarenko, it was a legend, it was a kyiv apocrypha, about a man who was forged from... the mouth of an art critic and the archaeologist who saved sophia of kyiv, mykhailivskyi could not, but he saved sophia of kyiv. well, probably, we should start with what may not be known to everyone, after the holodomor, when kyiv was finally pacified, pacified and ceased to be the piteluriv city, as dobkin called it, he remembers. even

in the 21st year, by the same token, he unknowingly cheated, betraying which circles he communicates with, obviously, that means in those, in the circles of that czech one. mother, who lay down in kharkov at that time those zhduns who were waiting for the arrival of russian troops, kyiv remained under 100 years later lyurovsky city. well, it is clear that in 1934, i.e. after the holodomor, it ceased to be a podlyuriv city, and the capital could be moved from kharkiv to kyiv. in the 20s it was still dangerous. kyiv was... a city, kyiv was a pitlyurov city, which did not accept the bolsheviks, and it is clear that this was the history of the destruction of kyiv, including the history of the projects of its architectural rape, that

is, it is clear, destruction, destruction churches, only in the 1930s there were about 300 cathedrals were destroyed, that is, it is clear that this is a complete architectural change. the face of the city, but most importantly, it was this project by langbard, one of the leading stalinist architects, langbard's project, it would be good if you had a picture, because this project has been preserved, and even one corner of this very colossal rectangle is left to us from it, which was supposed to be on the spot, the whole yaroslav city, this is the city for... slava, this is the historical heart of the rus of ukraine, where from sofia to mykhailivskyi, this is the entire territory, that is, from the 10th, from the 11th to the 12th century,

that is, it all had to be demolished, instead there was to be a colossal, such a gray brick, huge... rectangle, which, in the center of which was supposed to be an 80-meter statue of lenin, and it all ended with stairs going down straight to the dnipro, to the river station. yes, yes, there is this project, there is this project, this is a drawing of this leningrad sculptor, langard, and in fact, it is, it is colossal, this one is on the mountain. there is a colossal statue, and from it there are stairs to the dnieper, and it is like this from below, and it is like from below you can see this absolutely terrible view, well , but we have left, so not only the drawing, we have also a memorial of it, we have left the very corner of this

rectangle, which gives an idea of ​​the scale and scope of the project, and this the corner is the current ministry of foreign affairs, so before... what was there, or the party's op committee or, the party's, the party's op committee, yes, well, you can see it, this gray, massive, gray patch, this was the beginning of construction, i.e. construction began, mykhailivskyi was demolished, buildings, cleaning, so the territory has begun, and construction has begun, so how did sofia heal. yes, well, this is a riddle, and the answer to this, to this riddle is precisely given by this kyiv apocrypha, according to which mykola makarenko, uh, one of the leading ukrainian archaeologists, art historians,

he studied back in st. petersburg, the last - to me, well, in the first years, somewhere in the early years of the 20th century, in any case... in 1910, he already headed the antiquities department of the vermitage, and in 1919, when ukraine became independent, he came, so he started to work without recalling skoropadskyi or petlyura, well, in any case, he came, he came to kyiv to build his native ukraine, he came from a cossack family, he is from poltava region, and the subject matter... his work was always largely ukrainian, he, by the way, the melitopol cemetery is also his work, i.e. mariupol, mariupol cemetery, mariu mariupol, my lord, i’m sorry, yes, that means wooden churches, descriptions of wooden churches, he was a specialist from

byzantium in antiquity and byzantine studies, that is and only those works of his st. petersburg period have actually survived. because the main period of his creative activity in kyiv is all that went under the knife during his arrest, he was arrested in 1934. er, it means to get rid of him at that time from kyiv, because he just launched colossal activity and crazy activity in order to stop this langbard project, to slow it down, to just lie there, i don’t know, as a martyr under the wheels, as you like, he praised telegrams to stalin , explaining, therefore, the value of these masterpieces from the fatherland, and why they are needed, justifying and so on, it is clear that no one listened, watched and read it. so according to the urban legend, he came out, it is known that he came out against the french

communists, so it did not work with the communists, and the version is that he somehow came out against romain roland, and romain roland, as you know, is the best friend of comrade stalin , to which comrade starin listened, and romain roland found this move and trick, well, did makarenko tip him off, that is, after asking the great leader of the world proletariat, about the fact that rumors had reached them that there would be demolishing in kyiv means the saint sophia cathedral, and, therefore, but it would be nice to preserve it in the interests of soviet-french friendship, because it is also a french monument, it is also important for the french people, because the queen of france was married there, well, she was married then she is in rheims, of course, but this is just the case when lying in salvation. you know, it just came in handy, well, in any case, are there any known about it, or do they exist,

i only read about it once, i think it was in the magazine ukraine during the era of perestroika, or some documentary evidence of this, if there are any left, they are in moscow, and it is not known when they will be handed over to us, but in any case, it means that this man was arrested for trying to save eh... mykhailivskyi and sofia, he was exiled, somewhere there, so , going there to the russian hinterland, then he was arrested a second time there and shot for some reason, well, as it was done in those days in 1938, it means for some kind of cadet conspiracy or something else, well, in any case, they got rid of him, so he where his grave is unknown, and the main thing is that all his the legacy of this very kyiv period and... this kyiv period of his began, which is also important, when he arrived in 1919, he

became the director of the khanenko museum, then it was called the museum of arts in uan, the all-ukrainian academy of sciences, and actually, as the director of the khanenko museum , he began a very active activity to return to kyiv, the collection of khanenkos, which had been taken to moscow during the first world war. and st. petersburg, petrograd. listen, that's all, that's all as far as binding the story in such a tight knot. well, it's a fantastic fact that you they said, i didn't know about it, but i know another story, i just want to add it now, you mentioned the mariupol cemetery, and i'll just explain that where was this cemetery when the soviet authorities in the 30s began to build the industrial giant azovstal, known to us later then by po'. of the tragedy that unfolded there in the 22nd year, then at this place

they found old burials, which are several thousand years old, it was actually called the mariupol burial ground, and they literally gave several months for archaeological research, and it was mykola makarenko who unearthed some colossal treasures on the spot, axes, stone, some parts for... you were there and so on, and all these historical things were kept in the mariupol museum of local history, which was destroyed by the same russians in in the same 22nd year, and what they did not finish, they simply stole, in fact, these, in particular, these treasures, they stole with them to their own museums, and that's all, i say, it's just a shocking story, which shows that it's all one, yes, what... we're talking about now, it's all the same historical, the same historical node,

that is, if we ask history the right answers, the right questions, i apologize, then we immediately get the right answers, where one follows the other, just a whole, you know, he pulled the string and immediately the whole thing the intricate web of lies has been wound up for 100 years, but it all unravels easily at once, so with... you know, as soon as you only need to pull the thread in the right place, and makarenko is that thread, you know, first of all, after - the first is what is called, well, god commanded, you know, this one the street, and also about the street, about the street that is located between, exactly between sofia and mykhailivskyi, which means, whose destruction, by the way, was also blocked, and the baroque church, the baroque refectory of the 18th century

remained there, covered up, that's the only thing, what was left of those ruins, but, but... parda was arrested as a result, you understand, the project was blocked, so it all hung up, and so we now have this palimsest, by the way, about which very few kyiv tour guides tells, when in fact it is like that, well in fact it is incredibly interesting, standing like that, you will come, who are not from kyiv, then you will come to kyiv, stand facing mykhailivskyi, and on the left hand side of you there will be this... the very corner of this langbardivskaya, that means the blocked long building, and on the gate there on at the entrance gate that leads to an authentic, intact small refectory, there is a small bust of mykola makarenko installed by the efforts of ivan

dzyub in the early 1990s . dzyubi too, so this story was on his heart when he was there minister of culture, he managed to introduce makarenko into the kyiv space, at least that way, and the street we are talking about is exactly between sofia and mykhailivskyi, and it is called the street for a moment of alla tarasova, people's artist of the ussr, artist of mkhat, p' four-time laureate. and the stalin prize, the question of what she is doing there, what alla tarasova is doing there, and here is a note, here is another knot for you, ms. myrosla, because historically this was troitsky lane, and even in the years of our childhood with you was troitsky lane, and his renamed to alu tarasova street, at the time of the shcherbyt russification purge

of kyiv, how many unfinished kyiv historical buildings flew into the air then, how many museums were blown up then, i remember how all the adults mourned, mourned the authentic house of nechuy levytskyi on the then pushkinska street in the yard of the lesya ukrainka museum, and how a restaurant was later built there on that place, and there is no museum building, not that i... we have in the center of kyiv, here is the most kyivan, one might say, writer who described kyiv in the 19th century, who left us, well, in the end , everyone knows about kozhumyakkyaks, it was later remade by an old man for the theater, but, well, more so, so to speak, of kievan kyiv than the old-fashioned levyky one, there is no, no,

no traces, nothing left, so to speak, let's go back, let's go back to mykola, to mykola makarenko and... and then it was called alla tarasova street, and among other things, as it turned out, there is a rather powerful lobby, which means that the presence of this same alla tarasova in kyiv spacious, but our own to do, let us do our thing, we will now show the qr code, it is very important, in fact, we will show the qr code by which you can vote, name this... that street, which in one way or another is subject to de-russification and decolonization, name it mykola makarenko, who fought and gave his life to return both cathedrals to us, but as far as i'm concerned, it's simply our duty, not only the people of kyiv, but all ukrainians, at least all those who regard kyiv

as their capital , and it would be a very nice and symbolic gesture. for the cleaning of the kyiv area, and then further, so stop me, what is it called, because i am simply carried, on this topic, and oksana, thank you, thank you very, very much, it is important, you have said enough important things, we will meet with you separately and we will talk, because i understand that the the topic is not exhaustive, one way or another, i ask everyone or for these by qr code to go and support. oksana zabushko about renaming ala tarasova street to mykola makarenko street, or simply through kyivtsifrovyi, it is very easy for kyivites to come in and do it takes a few seconds. thank you very much, ms. oksana, oksana zabushka, thank you for your inclusion, thank you, and we return, we return to the conversation with vakhtan kibuladze, vaghtanzhe, how do you like this

story with mykola makarenko, with the fact that he is still not in the city, it is a pity that yes, and it is not only, this is not only an isolated moment like this, this, this question has already been raised, it means that 30 years have already passed, and here is this opinion, i am not a historian, but that we were brought up already in post-soviet times with thought that churches were blown up by the bolsheviks as religious buildings, but there was still one very the important motive is what mrs. oksana said, that it was kyiv that was destroyed by this tenement church, because there were more churches in kyiv than in any other. in a russian city, and it was a real orthodox capital, yes, no matter how you treat it, that is, there could not be more stone churches in kyiv than in moscow, let's say, and it was, so it was not

only bolshevik policy, it was once again the imperial russian policy of destroying the cultural heritage of our native city, and what happened to mykhailivskyi is only one of the plots, which, which happened then, you know that my soul is tormented. you and i were recently in sosnytsia, chernihiv oblast, in the museum of oleksandr dovzhenko, and there we were told that you can't talk, well, it's like, you can't talk about him, that he is an ambiguous artist, yes, and look, in the 31st year, when the question arose, they started talking about the destruction of mykhailivskyi, oleksandr dovzhenko submits his voice and look at what he writes, he writes like this, i think that... what about solving the problem of building a cultural park michael's monastery is asking to leave, he has lived his age, it is absolutely unacceptable to even

think that anyone needs these walls, and what to do with it, how to talk about it, he later repented at the end of his life, yes, but how to talk about it, because oleksandr dozhzhenko is part of our cultural canon, absolutely, but here we started with the canon, yes. and dovzhenko is not only a film director, he is a writer, and a very cool writer, and well, the enchanted right hand, maybe we will remember that, and it is obvious that oleksandr dovzhenko belongs to our canon, it is obvious that, let's say, the film earth, despite the fact that, in my opinion, there is a legitimization of the holodomor, in fact we do not talk about it, but it is also there, and it is no coincidence that he received the stalin prize, as far as ... knows exactly for this film, but dovzhenko cannot but belong to our canon, after all, any artist is a rather controversial figure,

that's why we admire this art, because such one-dimensional stereotyped figures, they do not create interesting art, but that's what i thought i think that's when i read it andruhovich's book lovers of justice, and we met with him immediately after that on... i told him, we were sitting, i said: listen, it seems to me that you have done a very important thing, you, in this book there is such a message very important for me, and what is this book about, it is a book about criminals, yes, about great criminals in our history, yes, and i say that for me, well, in addition to the literary value of this book, there is an important, important such political a message, a political-historical message, a political-historical-cultural message that we have to create... not only the pantheon of our heroes, as well as the besteary of our criminals. we have to do it ourselves, they don't have to come and tell us who is who among us?

russians or other europeans or americans, or anyone, anyone, no, we ourselves have to speak, this, this, this is part of our history, and even more, it often happens that in one period it is a hero, and the other period is the same person, so such things are assumed, ugh. and we ourselves have to talk about it, and in many ways what is imposed on us, primarily by the russians, why? because we have a simple vacuum, we have not talked about our traumas, and we and where we do not have a position, the enemy enters there and begins to manipulate, the same with dovzhenko, listen, anton robovych, the director of the institute of national remembrance, will tell you now that here's bulgakov and here... actually, he doesn't tell you what it is, that he should be included in the bestiary, on the list, in the bestiary of criminals, but he says that about bulgakov it is necessary and we should... talk

only in in kyiv, because if he sinned in some way, yes, then he sinned here, didn't you do you think that bulgakov is such a character that he should be included in this list? no, bulgakov is obviously not our character, bulgakov precisely because i said that we need to de-imperialize our consciousness and our culture. bulgakov is an imperialist, the most important thing, as far as i'm concerned, is that if you take his portrait, he is an imperial writer, and yes, we are not an empire and we do not claim to be an empire, we claim to be liberal democracy, i hope so, after all, well, this is how i see our country and what we are fighting for after all, we don't want to be either a part of the empire or the center of the empire, bulgakov is an emperor, bulgakov is a xenophobe, he is not just a ukrainophobe, bulgakov is a xenophobe, he is a chauvinist, he hates everything that is not russian, and when these manipulations take place, they say

it cannot be... you can't compare the author with his hero, but you can't, it's from the standpoint of literary studies, it's not very correct, but all the same, the characters speak often from the author, besides, take, take his works of art, take his diaries, caucasians, fiercely hate caucasians, strangely enough, he did not live there practically, he hardly knew that caucasus, but he hates it, and this is an absolutely xenophobic, chauvinistic and characteristic position for russians, it is the same today towards the caucasus, towards ukraine. to moldova, to the baltic countries and further, further, further, so if you distinguish, bulgakov is not just not our writer, he is a russian writer and he is a very dangerous writer, and precisely because he is a talented writer, there are no questions, yes, he even more dangerous, but there are two points here, when they talk about bolgakov, me, what about me damn, let's say why we are running with the authors of the white guard, which is obvious to me. and

no matter what they write, no matter what they say, this is a ukrainophobic novel, i remember when you mentioned that we went to ososnytsia, and pena and i were once in kherson, and we met there with the director of the kherson theater, oleksandr kniga, and he told when he was arrested by the ephesians, first, when they entered his office and saw the russian literature there, they told him: you are reading the right books, and the second question was, what about you the white guard... well, they didn't understand that it is possible to stage days of turbenykh, because dniturbenykh is a play, and the white guard is a novel, but they know that the white guard is a chauvinistic russian novel, and today it is completely embedded in russian propaganda, that's why bulgakov obviously hated kyiv, treated kyiv, ukraine, petlyura, in general, the idea of ​​our independence comes with hatred, he puts the white guards in their mouths, you remember, admiration

for the bolsheviks. why because these are russians, this horde of russians are coming to kyiv and what, what did they do muravyov in kyiv, it was practically scaled to the size of the bucha in kyiv, kyiv was soaked in blood, and what the russians repeated in bucha is the same, well, bucha is already such a name for all their crimes, and you you started talking about what makes you angry, angry, for some reason we don't talk about the city of pidmogilny, but modernity is a novel, really modernity, and i'll tell you why we don't say it, because we don't know it, well, we... we we know, no, i say we, as, we, as, society in the broad sense and those who, we, have not read, we do not know the girl from domontovych's bear, we don't know dr. serafikus domontovych or other kyiv texts, so the only kyiv text we have is bulgakov's text, the city, the teasing star mars, but even if we compare, i'm not a literary critic, and here they can fly stones in my direction, but in

my opinion the white guard is skillfully written. a novel, but this novel is very secondary, in my opinion, it is not an experimental novel, on the contrary, the city is experimental, then modernity is a novel, well, let the literary critics judge me for this they criticize, if they don't agree with me, i think so, like it, don't like it, that 's another question, it's a ukrainian-language modernity novel about our city, another question is interesting, there's another russian-language novel about kyiv, which was written by a kyivan who loves kyiv, it's in his hometown in... in the village of nykrasov, why do these bolhakovites, yes, these fans, here in russian-speaking kyiv, do not mention that nikrasov, only the shield hangs, it seems, in the passage where he lived, there is no museum, no there are no mentions, despite the fact that it is in the native garden written with great love for kyiv, and if there are any fans of russian literature still here , let them get along better with viktor nikrasov, why not viktor nikrasov?