well, one can say that journalists cannot survive in such conditions without the help provided by the military, police or other special units, this was already my words confirmed by the words of those journalists, so it happened that they... did a great thing, and i am very glad if i mr. volodymyr, to leave mariupol, as far as i know, you had to cross 15 checkpoints of the russian occupiers. how it happened, tell about your experience. yes, uh, at that time, at that time had to pass 15. roadblocks, well, i think, uh, not by ourselves

the roadblocks were more er, how to say it, exposed to security, the very situation in the place, er, the very troops that entered the russian, because if journalists were captured by them, well , that would be... they would cause such damage, to put it mildly, well, it was a mortal danger, so when we left, and we left in our own car, which at that time had already been damaged by shelling, it was also a plus, you could say, i understood what it was like we were leaving, passing those roadblocks, i understood that overcoming. block

overcoming each block post, it decreases danger for journalists, it is for my friends, therefore, telling the story in general, as it is transmitted, had to be done quickly, frankly speaking, because at that time i myself have work experience... i understand psychology, some psychology of criminals , and it can be said that those who stood in these spotlights are the same criminals, war criminals are different from ordinary criminals, there is also a big difference, well , everything had to be done so that my friends, my family, who were with us, to them in columns, because... the consequences were very severe, well, frankly

saying, i had a human desire for them to be in danger, and there among them was vasilya stepanenko, at that time she was 23 years old, and my daughter, my wife, and to get out, that they would succumb to torture and will. i am not aware of such dangers, that is why i am doing everything so that we leave the area of ​​terrible danger for them, well, for me it was a task, maybe for this i served all these years in the police at that time, in order to fulfill these actions mr. volodymyr, when did this shooting take place, when you tried to leave... from mariupol and

actually left, did you think that the collected material would become the documentary film of the year and win an oscar, well, i didn’t think about that, first of all i thought about maliupov seeing the light of day there, and we are already in in mariupol, we...we did it, my journalist friends, we did it so that the world community could see these same crimes, for me , frankly speaking, the very idea that no one would see these crimes, no one would learn about them, that was the worst thing for me , and when we did something, when we passed these on materials that will be removed to the ceiling. houses

in the higher cities of mariupol, hospitals, on the streets, and when these materials were sent to the world media, i already... felt that this was a great work of my journalist friends, and that these materials of theirs would become the basis of this, and something, there will be some prizes, awards, well, i don’t at all, frankly speaking, these were small nuances, when my fellow policemen and i talked about some topics, we... gave birth to our success very little there, when we repelled some kind of attack, when 10 minutes prevented the advance of these russians, when it happened, it was a joy for us, and to think that there would be some awards, that there would be

some kind of phil, well, i can imagine it, it is frankly speaking, mr. volodymyr, it turns out that you as police officers performed your main duty, you recorded crimes, and thanks to you, the whole world saw the horrors that the russians staged in mariupol. i want to ask you about something else, you were forced to leave donetsk in 2014, when the war actually started. and now for the second time, in the 22nd year, to you again had to leave already a new home for yourself, tell me, have you thought about transferring your service to safer regions, because now you continue to serve in the donetsk region, i believe that all my comrades who

did not become traitors, who came, who in this time served. during the hostilities, because the hostilities continued from the 14th year until the beginning of the full force and aggression, also, i believe that this was our duty, this is ours, well , you can say that at that time it became our goal of our work, to say that it was easy for my comrades, easy, i, i can't with... nobody in the world in other countries, i think, have such terrible experience as working in wartime, i, i mean the police forces, well frankly

speaking, i had no desire, no thought, i did not think to transfer, well , this is my region, this is my land. and i, i had a desire to stay working, now i have a desire, and i believe that this is our, this is our work as police officers, it has shown itself that we are doing a great job, we are helping you, well and our work in mariupol also showed that people need us, which... concerns me personally, me personally, well , maybe we were preparing for these, for these events throughout 2014, maybe, unfortunately, that interview , the experience we gained, the experience

we gained, he has already agreed to do his work in mariupol, please tell me , what about these 20 days in hell, were you able to survive them, are they still with you? you know, i can say that for all the employees who were for the defenders of mariupol, we were a little bit in such a position, we had it's easier, and you know why, why is there constant action, i believe that people... civilians who were in the city, they suffered more, because we never had a day to stop, think about something, or maybe say , that

the military, policemen, and other employees who defended were not so particularly afraid of these events for this time, but here is what our residents of the city of mari experienced, it is impossible to forget about it, and what he left mariupol. the home of my soul, it is definitely, i am impressed by my city, i consider the second my native second city, although i am not from mariupol, so i believe that we did what could be done in mariupol, although, although now i look from this time, what could be done, done and... mr. volodymyr, last year in august month

, the russian occupiers launched a rocket attack on the city of pokrovsk, and a few minutes later they hit it again in order to inflict maximum damage on the people who came to rescue the wounded from the first attack. our film crew, actually myself. then recorded the consequences of this terrible shelling, the russians simply hit the center, the apartment buildings, partially destroying them under the foundation, and we know that you suffered the same, suffered from this shelling, and as far as i understand, you are now being treated for the wound you received there, correct? like all my fellow police officers who were in pokrovsk, i went to

the scene of this terrible tragedy, of this crime, it is definitely a crime, because it was necessary to attack a residential building in the center of the city, at that time, under the guise that some headquarters was located there , this is definitely a crime, and with from a legal point of view, and from a human point of view. and from any point of view it is a crime, no matter who the russians there would tell themselves that they did something during the war, what the military should have done is a crime, they hit a residential building, they waited after that people start to be helped, rescued, rescued.

back, this is definitely a blow in the back, at that time there were a lot of materials and laid out they were hit a second time, well, it was a blow in social networks, they saw them, housing, i understand that they inflicted it deliberately, well yes... there is no excuse for a crime, well, the fact that i ended up there, i was driving after the end of time, i was already heading home by car, like other police officers in the city of pokrovsky of our main police department, i went there to provide help, to leave, to leave people helpless at that time, without... a demand, well , there was little possibility, although we, we knew what

would happen, there would be a second blow, and at the time when this second blow was inflicted, we were taking them out by car, there was a woman was, we loaded it, our car, our policemen, paramen, who there was a man who was on the floor. he was contused, well, to leave them and run to save yourself, it was nonsense, to run, to put on body armor there, to hide there, there was no time, well, at that time, yes, it so happened that we are many of our policemen, which you can say , while performing their duty , were injured, and at the same time received severe wounds, which are wounds. after that, we still need to be treated for a little bit of these consequences, and i wanted

to ask you this, here is pokrovsk, at the same time in the summer of the 23rd there was kramatorsk, a flight to a restaurant, about the pizzeria, we very often see the crimes of the russian federation against the civilian population, which occur due to ... adjusting their missiles, by ukrainians who for some reason do this, despite the fact that they see what horrors the russians bring, in your opinion, should ukraine react more harshly to people with pro-russian views inside ukraine, should the population be more vigilant or perceive in a different way the fact that next to us, perhaps our neighbor, one of them, may tomorrow adjust russian missiles to ours

houses? the view of treason is the worst, worst crime, and as people see it, and maybe, if we speak from god's point of view, treason is the most terrible thing that can be justified to these criminals, who are led by no one, considering them, to have some kind of view, imagine something. to do something wrong, but it is the same to be a traitor, to betray your people who live next to you, it is the most terrible thing, i think that the punishment can be, should be in our courts more severe punishment

for these crimes, because there is no excuse for them, let who are they... who is it rest, let them think from their lives about everything they have done in their lives, maybe even with this, this punishment, they will understand that, what they are doing, here without any doubt, this is my personal view, mr. volodymyr, surely to me , i have a question for you, i apologize, summing up our entire conversation today, how would you rate the way the russian federation is conducting this war? certainly, this war has shown that this war is criminal from the very beginning, and criminals cannot fight

like real ones, they are its species. sweetly, they don't has self-respect, this is a crime, they even respect themselves too, there are no warriors who are er- worthy of their respect, at all, these crimes that you have committed, these will be dark spots on them for years to come, maybe, maybe they will never pour them again. i believe that the most important thing for us is to prove these crimes to the world community, to remember these crimes and to understand that these are unpunished criminals, to stop these crimes, that's why ukraine is doing a very big job of

curbing world-class criminals. unfortunately, it is so, it is due to our efforts we are stopping these criminals who will not be stopped, well, maybe the people of the world will understand this, and it will be worthy of our country's help to hold on, so that we will win over these terrible criminals, well, let's hope for that, mr. volodymyr, i wish to you as soon as possible. hello, thank you for taking the time to talk with us, glory to ukraine, heroes, glory, thank you very much for the interview, i hope that our efforts will not be in vain and that we will win, we will hope for it,

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i'm myroslav verchuk, this is a self-titled program, a joint project of ukrainian pen and the espresso tv channel. today we will talk about the ukrainian cultural or literary canon. i.e. those texts, exemplary texts, iconic texts that are important for culture. let's talk about how it changes, who we take on board, who we leave behind . my guest today is vakhtant kibuladze, philosopher, writer. vakhtan, vakhtanzh, congratulations, good evening, thank you for coming, glory to the heroes, so we are talking about heroes, let's start with... who we take on board, who determines it, yes, whether we, or a person stays, or cultural figures, artists, writers, stay in the boat, yes

, whether they remain, how it is formed, who it is, who decides it, history decides, after all, we are only at the beginning of the process, and what remains there, we will not live to see, i am afraid of that, but, but... she said incorrectly, well , that is, it is a difference between a literary canon and a broader cultural one, well, in relation to the cultural canon it's hard to say, because the criteria are blurred there, that's how to consider, let's say, an artist there, is he a ukrainian artist or not a ukrainian artist, by place of birth, by place of residence, by the subject of works, for what, and how do you define it for yourself? there is a feeling that there is, for example, quince. objective, and here it is difficult, it seems to me, in music, in visual arts, in literature, it seems to me to be very, very simple, there is

a simple criterion, it is language, ugh, and no matter what they say to me, i do not believe that it exists, for example, the russian-speaking phenomenon there ukrainian literature, this is impossible, language, there is such a great illusion that we, we use the language, we write the language, no, the language speaks for us, we, we write the language. and the language writes us, that is why the writer who is bilingual writers, and there are phenomena of bilingual writers, and it is always a question of which literature to classify this writer, sometimes to both, and sometimes to a greater extent to some one, if the writer is monolingual, then it is clear, that he creates that literature, the language in which he writes, period, and even if he lives in ukraine and writes in russian, then he is russian a russian writer, that's all, and we just need to put a full stop here. to understand that these are russian writers, and another difficult question is whether russianness means hostility, unequivocally yes, or if it is a

russian writer, then we must... consider him an enemy, this is a difficult question, because, well, now it is obvious , now there is a war, now i think that everything russian is dangerous for us, but we are looking into the future, well , first of all, we never know what will really happen there, but if we are talking about writers who wrote, or until now some write in russian, but... at the same time, they may be of ukrainian origin, or describe ukrainian plots, so how to treat them, i don't know, i have no ambiguities here, i would introduce another such and such a distinction, this writer imperial or not, for some reason we talk about the decolonization of ukraine, about decommunization, but we don't talk about the de-imperialization of our own consciousness, and it bothers us, because we are such a trauma, but how will we enter into...

world culture and into world literature, into world philosophy, without relying on the great, as it is called russian russian literature, and let's just enter as a large number of peoples who don't have there, well , it's easier for me to talk about philosophy, let's say, me, since i've been doing phenomenology all my life, i can't just read here, here i don't read, there, well, i studied the work of gustav shpet, who is from kyiv and graduated from st. volodymyr university. what is shevchenko's university now, where i have taught all my life and where i studied, but what does it mean that he is a ukrainian philosopher? no, he is not a ukrainian philosopher, he is russian a philosopher, but the bolsheviks killed him, tortured him at first, he ended up on the curtain, then, then he was shot, we can't even know exactly where and how, but it is obvious that he is a victim of stalin's terror, but that he is not a russian philosopher, he is a russian philosopher , and he carries with him, despite the fact that

he belongs to... a tradition that is mostly german-speaking, yes phenomenology, but he has all the signs of a russian philosopher, first of all why, because he writes in russian, and berdyaev, berdyaev is also a russian philosopher , he a native of kyiv, and this, but this is a russian philosopher, and even more berdyaev, he has very dangerous works for us and for russian humanity in general , the russian idea, and this is such a russian proto-fascism, practically, modern russian fascists and nazis, they rely on these . in particular, although at the same time he has a work that is very important for us, the original meaning of russian communism, the one where he, where he practically shows how russian communism grows out of russian orthodoxy, and how orthodoxy is connected with russian totalitarianism and in the end, terror, but it was for this one work and drag it into the pantheon, once again we have to understand what it means, can't we, we

are not totalitarians, not authoritarians? as a state, we cannot ban some writer or artist or philosopher, but even more so we have to study the enemy, i generally believe, and i repeat this many times, that the main one of our main problems is that we still do not have an institute of russia , we do not have an institute that would systematically study russia in all dimensions of this evil, history, politics, religion, economy, literature, philosophy, etc., there are isolated initiatives in various institutions, but there is no institute for the study of our main enemy, and this is necessary, we should study russian, russian should be the object of research, meticulous, meticulous research, but what should not be , russian cannot have subjectivity on our land, that is what cannot be allowed, yes, because, in fact, we had an institute, some kind of russian, it was called something, but they were there with breath,

they spoke. we are talking about a person who should definitely be returned to the national pantheon, first of all all about kyiv space, this person 's name is mykola makarenko, he is an art critic, an archaeologist, who is actually... a disciple of st. michael's and st. sophia's cathedrals in kyiv, we are in touch with oksana zabushko, a writer, mrs. oksano, greetings, good evening, good afternoon, ms. oksana, you created a petition on the website of the kyiv city council to honor mykola makarenko, and to rename one of the streets of kyiv, which is right between st. sophia and st. michael's cathedrals

. mykola makarenko.