i understand that both our and russian together , yes or sometime in the early 2000s or before, but this is not the same at all, it was rather a russian institute of ukrainian-russian friendship than a study of russia, now we will talk about a person who is definitely worth returning to the national pantheon, first of all to the kyiv area, this man's name is mykola makarenko, he is an art critic, archaeologist, who is actually the savior of st. michael's and st. sophia's cathedrals. of kyiv, we are in touch with oksana zabushko, writer, mrs. oksano, i congratulate you, good evening, good day, ms. oksana, you have created a petition on the website of the kyiv city council to honor mykola makarenko and to rename one of the streets of kyiv, which is right between st. sophia and st. michael's cathedrals, after mykola makarenko.

please tell me a few, i am sure that many people still do not know about mykola makarenko, please tell me what kind of man he is and why it is so important to honor his memory and bring back his memory? well, you know, this is an old story, and i would say, it has been on my heart for a long time lie, i think, i saw your post on facebook, mrs. miroslava, and we understand it. children of the kyiv intelligentsia of the 70s, this is what we grew up with, this is the oral history that was left to us where the written one was taken away from us, where documents were taken away from us, and in the case of mykola makarenko, it was a retelling, it was a kyivan apocrypha, about a man who forged from the mouth, that is, about an art critic and archaeologist who saved

sophia of kyiv, mykhailivskyi could not, but sofia saved kyiv. well, probably, it is necessary to start with what may also not be known to everyone after the holodomor, when kyiv was finally calmed down, pacified and ceased to be the piteluriv city, as dobkin called it, we remember, back in the 21st year, by the same,... unaware of the circles he communicates with, obviously, that means in those, in the circles of that czech cotton wool that lay down in kharkov at that time, those zhduns who were waiting for the arrival of russian troops, kyiv remained under lyurovskiy gorod 100 years later, but it is clear that in 1934, i.e. after the holodomor, that's when he ceased to be... petlyurovsky

the city and the capital could be moved from kharkiv to kyiv. in the 20s it was still dangerous. kyiv was a crow. kyiv was a pitlyur city that did not accept the bolsheviks, and it is clear that this was the history of the destruction of kyiv, including the history of the projects of its architectural rape, that is, it is clear that it was destroyed. churches, only in the 1930s , about 300 cathedrals were destroyed, that is , it is clear that this is a complete change of the architectural face of the city, but the main thing was this project of langward, one of the leading of stalinist architects, the langvard project, it would be good if you had a picture, because this project has been preserved, and from it we have even one corner of this colossal rectangle left... which was supposed to be on the site of the entire

yaroslav city, this is that yaroslav city , this is the historical heart of the russian rus of ukraine, where from sofia to mykhailivskyi, this is the entire territory, that is, from the 10th, from the 11th to the 19th century, that is, it all had to be demolished. instead, there should have been a colossal such gray-bricked hefty rectangle, which, in the center of which was supposed to be an 80-meter-tall statue of lenin, and it all ended with stairs that went down directly to the dnipro to the river station. yes, yes, there is this project, there is this project, this is such a drawing. of the leningrad

sculptor langard and in fact it is this colossal this colossal statue standing on the mountain, and they go to it. stairs to the dnipro and this is from below, and this is how from below you can see this absolutely terrible view, well, but we have left, so not only a drawing, we have also a monument left on it, we have left the very, very corner of this rectangle , which gives an idea of ​​the scale and scope of the project, and this corner is the current ministry of foreign affairs, so before what was there, or the party committee from... well, you can see it, this gray massive gray patch, this was the beginning of construction, that is, construction began, mykhailivskyi was demolished, buildings, clearing, that means the territory began and construction

began, so how did sophia heal, well, here is the riddle and the answer to it... this kyiv apocrypha gives precisely this riddle, for by which mykola makarenko, one of leading ukrainian archaeologists, art historians, he studied back in st. petersburg, graduated, in my opinion, well, in the first years, somewhere in the first years of the 20th century, in any case, in 1910 he already headed the antiquities department in... mitage, and in 1919 , when independent ukraine became independent, he came, he started working, not remembering skoropadskyi or petliura, well, in any case, that means

he came, he came to kyiv to build his native ukraine, a native of the cossack family, he is from poltava region, from lohvytsia, and the subject matter his works were always mostly ukrainian, he... by the way, the melitopol cemetery, this is also his work, that is, the mariupol cemetery, the mariupol cemetery, the mariupol cemetery, my god, i’m sorry, yes, that means wooden churches, descriptions of wooden churches, he was a specialist in byzantinism, antiquity and byzantinists, that is, only those works of his st. petersburg period have survived, because the main period of his creative activity was in kyiv. this is all that went under the knife during his arrest, he was arrested in 1934, that is, in order to get rid of him from kyiv at that time, because he just unfolded a colossal activity and frantic activity to

stop this langbard project, slow it down, just lay there, i don’t know, a martyr under the wheels, as you like, he praised the telegrams to stalin, explaining... so the value of these masterpieces from the fatherland and why they are needed , justifying and so on further, it is clear that no one listened to it, did not watch or read it, so according to the urban legend he came out, it is known that he came out against the french communists, so it did not work with the communists and the version is that he somehow came out against romain roland, and romain roland, as you know , comrade stalin's best friend, whom comrade stalin listened to, and romain roland found this trick and trick. well, did makarenko tell him, that is, after asking the great leader of the world proletariat, about the fact that there were rumors that the saint sophia cathedral would be demolished in kyiv, which means that

it would be good to preserve it in the interests of soviet-french friendship , because it is also a french monument, for the french people as well... since the queen of france was married there, well, she was married in reimsy, of course, but this is just the case when the lie in salvation, you know, just came in handy, well, in any case, are they known or do they exist in this regard, i only read about it once, it seems in the magazine ukraine in the epoch perestroika, if there are any documentary evidence about it, if there are any, they are in moscow, when they will not be given to us... it is not known, but in any case, it means that this man was arrested for trying to save mykhailivskyi and sofya, he was sent away, somewhere there, that means he went there to the russian hinterland, then he was arrested there

the second time and he was shot for some reason, well , as it was done in those days in 1938 , it means for some cadet conspiracy or something else, well, in any case, they got rid of him, so it is not known where his grave is, and most importantly, that his entire heritage is from this very kyiv period, and this kyiv period of his began, which is also important, when he came to... arrived in 1919, he became the director of the khanenko museum, then it was called the museum of arts in uan, the all-ukrainian academy of sciences, and in fact, as the director of the khanenko museum, he began a very active activity with the return to kyiv, the collection of khanenkos, which was exported during the first world war to moscow and st. petersburg, petrograd, that is... this all ties history into such a tight knot, this is a fantastic fact that you

they said, i did not know about it, but i know another story, i just want to add it now, you mentioned the mariupol burial ground, and i will simply explain that where was this burial ground when the soviet authorities in the 1930s began to build the industrial giant azovstal, known us later, then by by by by that tragedy that is there unfolded in the year 22 ce, so at this place , they found these old burials, which are several thousand years old, actually it was called the mariupol burial ground, and they gave literally several months for archaeological research, and it was mykola makarenko who unearthed some colossal treasures there on places axes, stone, some parts for mace and so on, and all these things are historical. were stored in the mariupol museum of local history, which was

destroyed by the same russians in the same year 22, and what they did not finish, they simply stole, in fact, these, in particular, these treasures, they stole with them to their museums, and that's all, i say, it's just a shocking story that shows that it's all one, yes, what we 're talking about now, it's all the same the most historical... well, the same historical node, well, that is, if we ask history the right answers, the right questions, i apologize, then we immediately get the right answers, where one follows the other, just a whole, you know, pulled the string , and at once the whole knitting of the intricacy of lies wound up in 100 years, it is all at once easy dissolves, so you know, as soon as you need to pull the thread in the right place.

sofia and mykhailivskyi, so whether there is destruction, by the way, the barrack church and the barrack refectory were also blocked. the 18th century remained there, tarnished, it’s the only thing left of the various ruins, but, but the langbard was arrested as a result, you see, the project was blocked, so it all hung up, and so we now have this palimsest, until things that very few kyiv tour guides talk about, when in reality it is well, actually it is incredibly interesting, standing like that, you will come, who is not from kyiv, here you will come... to kyiv, stand facing mykhailivskyi, and on your left hand side there will be this very

corner of this langbardivskaya, this means behind the blocked long building, here and on the gate, there on the entrance gate, which leads to the authentic, not destroyed, small refectory, there is a small bust. mykola makarenko was established by the efforts of ivan dzyuba as at the beginning of 9, so like all sixties, to ivan, like all sixties to ivan dzyuba too, so this story was on his heart when he was the minister of culture, so he managed to introduce makarenko into the kyiv space, and the street in question is exactly between sofia and mykhailivskyi, and it is called the street for a minute.

it was renamed to alu tarasova street, that is , in... the shcherbytsk russification purge of kyiv, that's how many unfinished historical buildings of kyiv flew into the air at that time. how much was blown up then, forgive the museums, i remember how all the adults mourned, mourned the authentic home of nechuy levytskyi on pushkinska street at that time, in the yard of the lesya ukrainka museum, and how a restaurant was later built there, and there is no

museum building, like levytsky in the center of kyiv, that is the most kyiv-like place possible. to say the writer who described the kyiv of the 19th century, who left us, well, in the end , everyone knows about kozhumyakaki, it was later reworked by an old man for the theater, but, well, it is more so to speak of the kiev of kyiv, than the one that is no longer heard in levitsky, no, there are no traces, there is nothing left, let's go back to mykola, to mykola makarenko and to your petition, because it is very important, then it was named. and alla tarasova, and among other things, as it turned out, there is a rather powerful lobby, which means that the presence of this very alva tarasova in the kyiv area is supported, but let us do our thing, let us do our thing, we will now show the qr code, it is very important, in fact, we will show a qr code by

which you can vote, name this street, which is one way or another subject to de-russification. of decolonization, to name it after mykola makarenko, who, who fought for it, laid down his own life for returning both cathedrals to us, but as far as i'm concerned, it's simply our duty, not only the people of kyiv, but all ukrainians, at least everyone who wants kyiv as their capital, and it would be a very nice and symbolic gesture for the purification of kyiv space, and... then further , so stop me, what is it called, because i am simply carried away, on this topic, and oksana, thank you, thank you very, very much, this is important, you said enough important things, separately from we will meet and talk, because i understand that the topic is not exhaustive, yes otherwise, i am asking everyone or for these people

to go and support oksana zabushko's petition regarding the renaming of streets. aly tarasova on mykola makarenko street, or simply through kyiv digital, it is very easy for kyivites to come in and it takes a few seconds to do so. thank you very much, ms. oksana, oksana zabushka, thank you for including you, thank you, and we're back, back to the conversation with vakhtan kibuladze. vagtanze, how do you like this story with mykola makarenko, with the fact that he is still not in the city. it's a pity that this is not the case only, this is not only an isolated moment like this, the tip of the beak, this question has already been raised, it means that 30 years have already passed, and there is such an opinion, i am not a historian, but that we were brought up already in post-soviet times with the idea that the churches were blown up by the bolsheviks as

religious buildings, but there was one more very important motive, that is what ms. oksana said was being destroyed. it was kyiv, these tenements of the church, because there were more churches in kyiv than in any russian city, and it was the real capital of the orthodox church, and no matter how it was treated, that is, it could not to be in kyiv more churches are stoned than in moscow, let's say, and it was, so it was not only bolshevik policy, it was again imperial russian policy to destroy the cultural heritage of our native city, and what was happening... with mykhailivskyi, this is only one of the plots that happened then. you know what is bothering me, very much, you and i were recently in sosnytsia, chernihiv oblast, in the museum of oleksandr dovzhenko, and there we were told that you can't talk, well, it's like, you can't talk about him, that he is ambiguous

metzem, yes, and look, in the 31st year, when the question arose, they started talking about ruin. oleksandr dovzhenko gives his voice to mykhailivskyi and see what he writes. he writes the following: i think that when solving the problem of the construction of the cultural park, the mykhailivskyi monastery is asked to leave. he lived his age. it is absolutely unacceptable to even think that anyone needs these walls. what to do about it, how to talk about it? he then repented at the end of his life, right? but how to talk about... this, because oleksandr dovzhenko is part of our canon cultural, absolutely, but here we started with kano, yes, and dovzhenko is not only a film director, he is a writer and... the writer is very cool and, well, enchanted right hand, maybe we will remember this, and it is obvious that oleksandr dovzhenko

belongs to our of the canon, it is obvious that, say, the film earth, despite the fact that, in my opinion, there is a legitimization of the holodomor, in fact, we do not talk about it, but it is also there, and it is no coincidence that he received the stalin prize, as far as i know, precisely for this film, but dovzhenko cannot... belong to our canon, after all, any the artist is a rather controversial figure, that's why we admire this art, because such one-dimensional stereotyped figures do not create interesting art, but what came to my mind is when i read andruhovich's book lovers of justice, we immediately met him after that at the zaporozhye toloka, and i told him, we were sitting, i said: listen, it seems to me that you did a very... important thing, you, in this book there is such a message that is very important to me, and what is it about book? this is a book about criminals, yes, about big criminals in our country

history, yes, and i say that for me, besides the literary value of this book, there is an important, important political message, a political-historical message, a political-historical-cultural message that we should create not only a pantheon of our heroes, as well as the bestearies of our... criminals, we have to do it ourselves, it is not for us to come and say who is in us, who, russians or other europeans or americans, or anyone, anyone, no, we ourselves have to speak , this, this, this is part of our history, and even more, it often happens that in one period it is a hero, and the other period is the same person, but such things are assumed, and we ourselves have to talk about it, and in many ways what is imposed on us, first of all, by the russians, why? because we simply have a vacuum, we have not talked about our traumas, and we and where we do not have a position, the enemy enters there and

begins to manipulate, the same with dovzhenko, listen, anton robovych, director of the institute of national remember that here is bulgakov, and here you are, in fact, he does not say what this is, that he should be attributed to nothingness. to the list in the besteary of criminals, but he says that it is necessary and we should talk about bulgakov only in kyiv, because if he sinned in any way, yes, then he sinned here, don't you think that bulgakov is such a character that he should be included in this list? no, bulgakov is obviously not our character, bulgakov precisely because i said that we need to de-imperialize our consciousness and our culture. bulgakov is an emperor, the most important thing, as far as i am concerned, is that if you take his portrait, he is an imperial writer, and, and, we are not an empire, and no, we, we, do not claim to be

to be an empire, we pretend to be a liberal democracy, i hope so, after all, well, that's how i see our country and what the struggle is for in the end, but we don't want to be either part of the empire or the center of the empire, bulgakov the emperor , bulgakov is a xenophobe, he is not just a ukrainophobe. bulgak is a xenophobe, he is a chauvinist, he hates everything that is not russian, and when these manipulations take place, they say, you cannot identify the author with his hero, but you cannot, this is from the standpoint of literary studies, it is not very correct, but the heroes still speak partly from the author, besides, take, take his works of art, take his caucasian diaries, fiercely not even to the caucasus, which is a miracle, he did not live there practically, he hardly knew that caucasus, but he did not... will see, and this is an absolutely xenophobic, chauvinistic and typical position for russians, it is the same today, to the caucasus, to ukraine, to moldova, to

the baltic countries and further, further, further, therefore, if you distinguish bulgakov is not just not our writer, he is a russian writer and he is a very dangerous writer, and precisely because he is a talented writer, there are no questions, yes, then he is even more dangerous, but here are two points, when they talk about bolgakov, me me... what the hell, let's say, why are we fighting with the authors of the white guard, which is obvious to me ukrainophobic, and no matter what they write, no matter what they say, this is a ukrainophobic novel, i remember when you mentioned that we went to ososnytsia, and pena and i were once in kherson, and we met there with the director of the kherson theater, oleksandr kniga, and he told when he was arrested by fsb officers, the first time, when they entered his house...

built into russian propaganda, that's why bulgakov obviously hated kyiv, treated kyiv of ukraine, petliura, in general, the idea of ​​our independence goes with hatred, he puts in the mouths of the white guards, you remember, admiration for the bolsheviks, why , because these are the russians, this horde of russians is coming to kyiv and... what muravyov did in kyiv was practically scaled up to the size of the buch in kyiv, kyiv was covered in blood for a generation, and what the russians repeated in buch was that exactly, well, buchi is already such a name for all their crimes, but you started talking about what makes you angry, angry, for some reason we don't talk about the city of pidmogilny, but a modernist novel, really modernist, and i'll tell you why we don't talk, because we don't know it, well, we, we we know, no, i’m saying we, like us, like,

society in the broad sense and those that we haven’t read, we don’t know the girl with the demontovych bear, we don’t know dr. serafikos domatovych or other kyiv texts, so the only kyiv the text we have is bulgakov's text, the city, the star mars, yes, but even if to compare, but i am not a literary critic, and here stones may fly in my direction, but in my opinion white guard is a skillfully written novel, but this novel is very secondary, in my opinion. this is not an experimental novel, on the contrary , the city is an experimental, then a modernist novel, well, let literary critics criticize me for this, if they do not agree with me, i think so, like it, don't like it, then that's another question, it's a ukrainian-language modernist novel about our city. another question is interesting, there is another russian-language novel about kyiv, which written by a kyivan who loves kyiv, it is in nikrasov's native city, in his native garden,

why these bolgakovs, and these... fans of russian-speaking kyiv do not mention the fact that nikrasov's only shield hangs, it seems, in the passage where he lived. there isn't even a museum, there aren't any mentions, despite the fact that in the native garden it is written with great love for kyiv, and if there are any fans of russian literature still left here, let them get along better with viktor nikrasov. why not viktor nykrasov? because bulgakov, despite his seemingly anti-bolshevism and anti-communism, he... is inscribed in the russian imperial canon, absolutely inscribed, moreover, he sought to be inscribed, that is why he writes about stalin, batum, and, he, he, he, a sycophant who tries to fit into this communist the new canon does not fit, yes, and by the way, what is interesting, bulgakov on the 21st, well, correct me if i am not correct, on the 21st, when he flees, he flees to moscow, although the white emigration that he sings, flees

not to moscow. the white emigration is fleeing and he has a play about the white emigration was not stalin's favorite, and she runs away, she runs away to paris, to europe, and nikrasov in the 70s, when it was much more difficult to leave the soviet union, he leaves and he lives out his life in exile in paris, not in the soviet union yeti union, because he did not fit into this imperial canon, bulgakov perfectly fits into the imperial canon as a chauvinist. as a xenophobe, and he has a place there, so here is the problem we started talking about, bulgakov is clearly a russian writer, and this is clearly very dangerous a russian writer, that is, this is not our bestiary, no, this is not our bestiary, nikrasov is a russian writer, but he loves kyiv, he writes about kyiv with love, he writes a very ambiguous novel, in general, i don’t know how he can due to the fact that he received the stalin prize for in the trenches of stalingrad, he

was given the opportunity to print. print this novel, which was later completely destroyed, and read it, i don't want to spoil who hasn't read it, but again, despite the fact that nykrasov is a kyivan who writes with love about kyiv, this is part of russian literature, and yes to him it is necessary to believe, and today it is also dangerous, precisely because it is written talentedly, and as for bolgakov, too, but again, i know that veresk will start here from the fans, it seems to me that he is generally a very overrated writer. he is the number one star only in russian, this corner of world literature, because those who hang around with the master and margarita and margarita and, well, forgive me, read hoffmann's elixirs of satan, read angel of the west, here i think that we all read it very young, for example , when i studied in the second year of the university, masters margarita, of course i was impressed, as was the white guard, and...