in accordance with the norms of international humanitarian law. our competent authorities, including the attorney general's office, insist that the numbers are fully verified, verified, and can be trusted. is this the final number? no, and even in my work experience, we often identify children who are not in this database. what does that mean, why aren't they there? these can be status children, orphans, children deprived of parental care, as well as, unfortunately, war orphans who lost their parents in connection with... the actions of the russian federation, no one was looking for them, that is why no one contacted and that is why there is no information. we do this on behalf of the relatives of these children, trying to facilitate the return of such children to ukraine, because they should not be discriminated against in any way just because they are not currently in this base. therefore, the base is dynamic, and it is updated and will be updated, i hope, not at the expense of the fact that the russian federation will continue to deport and forcibly relocate ukrainians. children, but at the expense of

that we will identify more and more. are there hundreds of thousands of ukrainian children deported by the russian federation, and why does the russian federation itself eventually talk about 700, and about 730, 740 thousand, who will give more, you know, as if there is some kind of undeclared competition, these are the children who, according to of their statistical documents, crossed the border of the russian federation, it does not mean that they are there now, it does not mean that they are children without bags. i'm sorry, the russian federation itself, to be honest, has already said that mostly these are children with their parents, which by no means eliminates the question of whether such a transfer was legitimate and whether it is not deportation, that is, accompanying parents does not mean that it is a legitimate thing, a legitimate action, so i would say, and taking into account the experience of our organization and the fact that that we see how many children are taken away for various reasons, how many children could potentially be lost... became war orphans and

there is no information about them either, it is still not hundreds of thousands, it is tens of thousands of children, so it is not 20 thousand that now identified, it more, but i would not have taken it upon myself to talk about hundreds of thousands. and russia declares that it sends ukrainian children to so-called re-education camps, what is this? for the russian federation, in fact, as she says, these are summer camps. however, what we are documenting are already autumn camps, and winter, and spring, and year-round camps, yes, absolutely correct, this is precisely the process of re-education, this is when , in fact, concentrating ukrainian children in a limited space, these are former soviet, pioneer camps, summer camps, together, by the way, with russian children, and also together with children from the occupied territories for already, unfortunately, 10 years, in such a team the russian federation uses...

specially methodologically developed materials, organizes russification, political indoctrination, i.e. washing of the cities, so that children became loyal to the russian federation, as to the aggressor state and the militarization of these children, and just recently, from fresh information, children who were taken to the territory of belarus from the occupied kherson region, it happened, they arrived yesterday, and they were taken out four days ago, that is, such a long journey, and one of the girls was small. 8 years old, she said that she knew how to use a weapon, that they were taught, they were shown there how and what this or that rifle was intended for, and of course it is a fact that a belarusian propaganda journalist said that it was a child's fantasy, but i would wasn't so sure because seeing their non-formal education, all these youth armies, the movements of the first and the re-education program in these children's camps, we can believe a girl who really now... claims that they understand

weapons at the age of eight, i understand correctly that russia is actually training janissaries, yes, it is training new soldiers for itself, it seeks to strengthen its own mobilization reserves in this way, but at the same time we also have it is to emphasize, to weaken ours, and actually this explains why there is such a large number of young men aged 14-17 among the deported children... it is this group that is the most numerous among the children who were forcibly transferred to russian families, that is, there was only one intention: so that they would not served in the armed forces of ukraine after coming of age, but even after the process of re-education, reflashing, eradicating identity, they themselves would want to join the armed forces of the russian federation. in 2022, the so-called children's shoemaker of the russian federation of lviv-bilov. and i will remind our viewers that

she is, according to the investigators of the international criminal court, an accomplice of the dictator putin in the kidnapping. children, she adopted a ukrainian boy, and what do you know about how widespread such a practice is now in russia? so i'm here right away because, if the team of lviv and bilova will watch our interview, we understand the difference between adoption and guardianship, and indeed, from the documents we saw, maria lvivova bilova established the guardianship of philip holovnaya, a boy deported from mariuppol, . in april of this year, namely on april 4, philip will turn 18, so unfortunately, we assume that knowing lviv-bilova, she will want to take another child for herself in order to fuel this propaganda and encourage more and more. take more russians into ukrainian families

children, because unlike what russia broadcasts on the global stage, which is like the process of handing over for guardianship, not for adoption, as they say, ukrainian children after the start of a full-scale invasion. lasted only until october 2022, this is all a delusion and a lie. we documented cases when russians handed over ukrainian children to their families in december 2023 as well. the process is ongoing, what we know about these families, they are mostly really so -called resource families, that is , they also have russian children from russian orphanages, often these are children with disabilities, often these are really large family groups, and now among these children there are deported ukrainian minors. who are their parents is rather obscure information, but putin and lviv bilova are carrying out the genocide of the ukrainian nation at the hands of teachers, that is , mostly among these families, among the professional segment of this segment, they are teachers, because they are easy to control, on the one hand, you

control them through the authorities custody and care, because they are resourceful families, and on the other hand, because school directors, these glorious districts of theirs, the ministry of education and so on, that is... these people are absolutely so servile, this does not remove the issue of their further responsibility, but for our understanding they did not decide anything there, and all are as one, even in russian propagandist media testify that they were called by the guardianship authorities or the ministry of social policy and were told: children are coming from donbass, that is, children, and we have documented, were coming from far away places, including, for example, from the occupied kherson region, they they were called the children of donbass and were handed over to guardianship, but the situation is even worse if we look at the territories occupied since 2014, because then the russian federation did not invent any temporary guardianships there, other forms of transfer to the family form of upbringing, that is, they immediately were given up for adoption, and now we see how children who were deported at the

age of one or two spent 10 years in a russian family, and they do not even suspect that they are from the territory of the crimean peninsula, that they are not the native children of these parents and live yourself there become the letter z and tell russian patriotic poems about a special military operation, this is how the international community's complete disregard for this crime for 10 years works, and this is that the reaction, unfortunately, is so strong in the form of arrest warrants, it was appropriate , and we very much welcome it, but it is not enough to eliminate the long-term consequences of such policies and such illegal actions. now we are talking about all this washing of cities, about the assimilation of ukrainian children, and a terrible thought arises, terrible the question is, if it is possible to return these children to ukraine, will they want it? this is a question

that needs to be clarified, because if they testify on camera in russia that they do not want to return, or immediately after returning due to the fact that they were... traumatized, re-traumatized, even during repatriation, they will say , that something is wrong here, it does not mean that they really think so and that this is their position, that is, children should undergo psychological rehabilitation, children should have a special reintegration program and obviously a support program, we do not we are talking about the fact that each of them should be given, as russia does, apartments, cars and pay huge sums of money, because it will be at least unfair to the other children who suffered. from the armed conflict, but he asks and we do not want to buy these children, as the russian federation ultimately wants, we want these children to remain ukrainian citizens, to have this ukrainian identity, which in reality you can never buy, that is, the russian strategy is working, as long as they have money, when the money runs out,

the children will pack their bags and go back, because what we see and what we observe, at least for a group of teenage children, is not so simple and not so effective, there are even... russian for many years, probably from the soviet union tested manipulation strategies, and therefore, for example, now maria lvova-bilova started such a new initiative from february 2024. when now not only children go to re-education camps, but also members of their families, that is , it is probably calculated, first they will go there for such demonstrativeness, loyal to the russians, but then those who do not want to obey president putin will be forcibly dragged there and forcefully re-educated, there is such a two-way influence, through re-educating children they want to influence disloyal families, and through the search for some loyal ones... in this family they are trying to eradicate the identity of children, because unfortunately, sometimes we record such cases when

the child does not want to go to russia, when the child does not want a russian passport, and he is just waiting for how to escape from the occupied territory, for example, or from the territory of the russian federation, and that's it connect here with some of my relatives, but i am one of the parents, or, for example, a grandmother or an aunt who, receiving certain benefits from russia for raising this child, are resisting, i would like to emphasize here that this is not... in no way deprive this child of the right to retain his identity and return to the territory ultimately under the control of the state of citizenship, and if such persons resist this, they will be accomplices of russian crimes, and therefore you need to think twice before sending your child to camps re-education or to russian schools, if such a choice still remains, but actually russian propaganda claims that... that ukrainian children, who were returned to the unoccupied part of ukraine, that they allegedly

want to return to russia, and isn't this a bell of the fact that can russia refuse to return them at all? i want to explain this situation, because they simply cut out part of the ukrainian airwaves, disturbed it there, and talk about the fact that even ukrainian human rights activists claim that the russian federation... takes better care of ukrainian children than ukraine, this is a delusion, the cases when someone returned to the territory of the russian federation from ukraine, they are single, that is, among 388 children, maybe there is one person there, and then, if we look at his personal history, we will see that there are relatives in the territory of the russian federation, that there may have been some objective reasons why the child went there, maybe she did not return there to her permanent place of residence, therefore, firstly, this requires additional... constraints, secondly, that, that which for some reason , the russian federation assumed that ukraine does not take good care of

the returned children, which is also not true. we see that now, in connection with the significant attention of the international community to the crime of deportation, as well as in connection with the fact that new and new initiatives are being created for the return of ukrainian children, their rehabilitation, these returned children feel quite well, so we still need to meet their individual needs, particularly in terms of bridging the education gap, which... psychological rehabilitation, again i mentioned reintegration, but these children do not beg, these children are in family forms of education, or study in our educational institutions, that is, this is allowed by ukrainian legislation and are in other forms of care, these children have certain payments, these the children have the constant support of such a social worker from the state, that is, not everything is as bad as the russian federation wants to pretend, and i will only emphasize that now, not government organizations, but the state, are trying more

to improve the situation of all children affected by the armed conflict, and therefore there will be special support programs, and there will be a special psychological rehabilitation program, but we must understand that, unfortunately, these are things that require a certain amount of time to prepare, in one day you you don't organize this. the russian federation has been preparing for the deportation of ukrainian children for years. mrs. kateryna. i know that you often visit abroad, communicate with our international partners, in particular last year in november you communicated with un delegations and, if i'm not mistaken, they were given the concept of a single mechanism for the return of small ukrainians, in fact, to begin with, tell me what this concept is, and then i would like to know your observations and your... conclusions about how determined and ready our international partners are to help in the return of the children,

or is it just another set of concerns? at the beginning of 2023, the team of the regional center for human rights conducted such a global enough study, we studied the experience of those states that faced deportation, the abduction of their children, the experience of identification, of return. we also analyzed the existing international standards and international treaties, in order to adapt them to the ukrainian context, but again, on the other hand, not to invent a bicycle, some such... that no one has ever heard of and is unlikely to agree to, and as a result, we came to such an obvious scheme, perhaps for some, it is quite similar to the one that existed in the grain agreement, when ukraine and russia the federation, because the children are under its control, and we, unfortunately, without the complete surrender of the russian federation, without it , we will not be able to return the children now, so

ukraine and the russian federation must come to an agreement, but this must be done exclusively through a third party, which will not. .. it’s just that there is an intermediary to transfer some kind of list, as, for example, qatar is doing now, and which will also play the role of the guarantor of the return process, which will also agree on the simplification of the return process and on reducing its duration, on the unification of documents, which the russian federation requires, also accurately predict the categories of children that ukraine will return to ukraine, which the russian federation is forced to return, that is, there are a lot of functions for this third party. roles, and therefore, returning to the question of whether all these initiatives are not just declarations, we must understand that canada, the united states of america, norway, they returned ukrainian children without joy today, all 1900 of them, but the russian federation never in its life will not agree to their mediation, so we we are looking for someone to whom

the russian federation will agree, currently it is qatar, there are still rumors about some kind of participation. the vatican, but again, the ukrainian side does not confirm this, although the russian side there issued a whole report on the role of the vatican. there are also certain initiatives from the global south, in particular the south african republic, which i also visited, is interested, and this was announced by president ramaphosa, to join the process, effectively join the process of returning ukrainian children. and here we have to understand that it has ceased to be exclusively ukraine's pain, exclusively a problem. of ukraine, and it should already be decided, probably not only for ukraine. now we have to take the lead and develop a return mechanism, exactly the one that is contained in our concept, is it possible to improve something there, i don't know anymore, it is so refined, you know, but so that this mechanism also works for other children who are currently

suffering in armed conflicts, then the probability of returning ukrainian children also increases, the probability. support of such mechanism is also growing, and such an important thing, which i want to emphasize, is that it is impossible to combine both the return and the prosecution of guilty persons in one mechanism, this does not mean that we should forgive putin and lviv bilov for deportations and say that we are not see, it's very good that you returned the children, but it means that in the issue of return, the priority is return, and that in ... a potential written agreement on the mechanism of return, there may not be a provision on the responsibility of the russian federation, but this, well, again, does not exclude such responsibility, and the international criminal court will definitely not cancel the arrest warrants after the return of the ukrainian children. in fact, with regard to this warrant, almost a year has passed since it was issued, and what has changed

in this case over the past year, and has the list of suspects been added? unfortunately, in this case, in this episode, the deportation and forced transfer of ukrainian children in our country has not changed since march 17, 2023, when arrest warrants were issued, that is, new suspects there are no, just as there are no additions to the qualifications in the current arrest warrants, but their existence is still an unprecedented, mega-symbolic event, for the first time in the history of the existence of international criminal law as such, not even only an international criminal... court an arrest warrant is obtained by the current head of a nuclear power in the course of an ongoing, fairly heated armed conflict, meaning it was a major victory and could not fail to have an impact. opinions were divided, including in the ukrainian expert environment, and so was the russian one the federation obviously insists that the issuance of arrest warrants only made the return process more difficult, but in order

to be as objective as possible, i would rely on statistics: before... the issuance of arrest warrants , lviv-bilov was publishing, and we will operate their data, because they are all the same, i will explain what this data is, but let's start with it. so, regarding the issuance of arrest warrants, she facilitated the return of five ukrainian children. after the arrest warrants were issued, the number of such children, in her opinion, where she contributed to the return, she and moskalkova, 94. that tangible, yes, until march 17, 2023 , a year has also passed, and in this year only five children. and where they contributed there, here came a year and it is already 94, that is, the numbers differ, but we are in the regional center of human rights, together with our partners, from the lenkiv institute. prevention of the crime of genocide, came to the conclusion that even in those cases where they speak, we facilitated, we facilitated something there, we have witnesses, that is , victims of the abuses of the russian

federation, who say, no, it only interfered with us, that is, the russians put forward all new and new conditions, the requirement to pass a dna test, the requirement to pass a polygraph test, numerous long-term interrogations with the federal security service with other russian law enforcement officers, some kind of... to undress and then be burned there to tell how they are making the russian federation solely with the sole purpose of use this record against these people and manipulate them, that is, even in these cases, the russian federation did not contribute, but the return process intensified, and we see a change in the narrative: during 2022, maria lvova aloova told everywhere that president putin said there to eliminate red tape in the legislation, to grant russian citizenship to everyone, to hand over ukrainian children even with ukrainian. citizenship in a russian family, well , it happened, you can’t get the words out of the song, this is their conversation on march 9, 2022, already in the conversation on february 16, it was on the eve of the issuance of

arrest warrants, there she talked a little something about the transfer of ukrainian children to their families, that she took the child herself, but it was already clear that they suspected something, because the international community had already started to prepare, they knew that we were gathering evidence, the first children returned on their own, and already on march 17, it was big. calmness, they were preparing there to comment on march 17, march 17, 23 , the moment the arrest warrant was issued, they lingered there, lingered, then began to come out with a statement, maria lvova bilova - these are her words that president putin gave an order to facilitate the reunification of families, they do not speak, they do not use the word return anywhere, because if they say return, then it turns out that they were relocated, it turns out that kidnapped, it turns out that they were deported, they say: connection, as if so neutralizing, something like that, they chose one of the words, and in fact they somewhat manipulate this word reunification, because you can reunite biological families,

but as for orphan children, especially if they have lost their legal guardian, it will be much more difficult here, and they understand it and do not want to return such children, but less so, if i sum up this whole long excursion, i will not abuse it, the situation has changed. from dead center, and now we we are already talking about some international initiatives, we are accumulating the support of the international community, and we are planning, not just dreaming, we are planning to return thousands of ukrainian children in 2024, and i think that this is a significant merit of arrest warrants? and panikaterina, on march 13 this year, the european parliament held a debate on the creation of a legal mechanism for return. young ukrainians to their homeland, how can the european parliament influence this at all? i would say that this is a logical process of continuation, or even addition

, of what is happening at the level of the council of europe. on january 25 of this year, a resolution was adopted, which also emphasized the need to create a single, transparent, understandable, legal mechanism for the identification and return of ukrainian children. yes, indeed, the european union cannot be the same. by a third party, because the russian federation will not agree to it, and somehow they cannot physically go there, return the children, but this is only one aspect of the big mechanism, the others are the identification of children, and here the european union with its powers, including that refers to its software security, intelligence, they can help us. then there is the issue of rehabilitation and reintegration, here they can help both with expertise and financially, and... by organizing certain processes for ukrainian children, i would like to emphasize that a significant prerequisite for the return of deported ukrainian children is simply a must have, without this will not happen, this is a reform

of deinstitutionalization, that is, until we have a register of foster parents, until we have a queue, and it is already forming, because here you know, so that there is no cut-off later, a queue of of adoptive parents is already being formed, and there are those people who are ready to take ukrainian deportees... and children deprived of parental care, and it will happen, but we need a big, important reform so that no child will be in these soviet-type barracks anymore, i will not name it is even an orphanage, because 200-400 people in one territory, it is more like a colony of strict regime, and not a children's institution, we have to get rid of this, and this is supported by the leadership of our state, and this is a mandatory condition, by the way, ours too european integration, so all these processes are happening in parallel, the european union can definitely help in some of them, it can support ukraine in others, and after all, the european union has a huge system

of treaties. with the countries of the global south, they quite successfully used this system of treaties, foreign trade agreements, preferential agreements, in order to avoid unrest within the countries of the global south, now they can try to somehow use trade and economic mechanisms there in order to that these states should at least join the coalition for the return of ukrainian children, and would it be desirable if one of them, either collectively or individually, acted as a mediator for this side in dealing with the russian federation? by the way, with regard to intermediaries, when talking about countries that can be guarantors, perhaps it is worth considering countries that can have some influence on russia. in particular, for example, china. hasn't the question of joining this country been discussed? that's a very good question, and i'm sure it's been discussed, although i don't

have that information because... it it is as logical as possible, that is, i think that our state started with two candidates, it is turkey, which was already a third party, quite successful, which now promotes the return of ukrainian prisoners of war, and probably china. i will not comment on china's political diplomatic position because i think my opinion is not mainstream, you know, i don't want to be criticized here again, but i am sure that china will not be a third party, and so we need to look for someone else, but ... you are absolutely right, it should be a state that is in certain relations with the russian federation, well, not that it is on an equal footing, and not that it is already on top, because china refused, but at least to be able to somehow influence the russian federation and the return of a significant number of children, because you know, when i they say the return of 11 children is the largest group, it is a great victory, i am happy, because every child is important who crosses the ukrainian

border in the direction of ukraine, but 11 children is very few, at this rate we have no chance to return all of them within even one decade, so we need countries that can potentially be further considered and what is being discussed now, for example, saudi arabia is a pretty good candidate, russia has some interests in this state and in cooperation with this state, it could be brazil, and by the way, brazil also has such a rather ambiguous position towards the russian full-scale invasion, so it is, in principle, for... the russian federation, this can be a candidate for negotiations, and at the same time we mention brics, at the same time we remember that brazil is a catholic big state, and we heard about the role of the vatican in the return of civilians, that is, yes, as if the stars are aligned, it could be kazakhstan, because now it is not a well-known thing, but kazakhstan is a recognized state, at least by the un, by unicef, which has cool

identification practices. of abducted children in the context of idols, in the context of the abduction of children who were in various camps that kazakhstan then repatriated them from syria and iraq. it is a great state in terms of rehabilitation and reintegration of such children, and kazakhstan has certain relations with the russian federation. also, and in fact, i already mentioned the republic of south africa, which is also a member of brics, although we remember that putin did not go to the summit in... he did not risk this country because of the arrest warrant, although you know, it is not means that he did not go anywhere and during the 23rd year after the issuance of arrest warrants, he still traveled and traveled to that state, by the way, which you and i are mentioning today as possible mediators, that is , here there is a certain potential of that states that i named, to dream that it will be someone from our satellite states, our partners, or from states with a recognized reputation in the field of

rights protection'. for example, such a country is canada, unfortunately, it does not have to be, because the russian federation will simply, simply stand in a position. mrs. kateryna, finally, i would like to ask you about the number of children who have been returned, and do you know whether there are plans to return ukrainian little children in the near future? so, as of today, according to official information, 388 children have been returned, you could. hear a larger number, it there could be a number of more than 500 children, it is also mentioned, but this is together with those children who were reunited with relatives, because they were separated in connection with russian aggression, these children mostly returned from the occupied territories, but the number of returned, deported and forcibly displaced children , exactly 388, and it is, unfortunately, very small. ukraine is planning and preparing, because i don't like the word planning, you know...