they could not and should not have known this, and i think that , for sure, this was the practice of covering up information, it should have been, according to the leadership of the communist party , also applied to the disaster that occurred on the night of april 26, 1986. the only thing that prevented this was the scale of this disaster, such a powerful scale that its results were learned hundreds, thousands of kilometers away from ukraine. for the first time it was understood, something significant happened on the territory of sweden, where at its local nuclear power facility there was an increased radiation hazard was recorded and they thought that maybe some kind of accident had happened in them, then they realized that no, that it was about the fact that the wind brought some air that was poisoned by radiation, this was the beginning of this in the literal sense of this leak and which spilled out. in the information cycle, which

finally forced the authorities to say something about the fact that the accident had happened, at least very dryly, without any details, at least state the fact that it did happen. for the first, probably, one, two, three weeks, the soviet authorities tried to do everything so that people do not find out anything, even in those regions that were essentially tangential to the kyiv region, you said that in fact... in fact, they started talking about it only after europe, the european states spoke, began to sound the alarm, if this had not happened, would the ukrainian society or the residents of other union republics have known about the fact that such a disaster had occurred, or would the soviet union have managed to avoid such a...

dissemination of information in this case and all this would be possible to hide, it is difficult to say unequivocally whether it was completely hidden, because we are still talking about the year 1986, that is, it is already the time when there is a new leadership of the communist party, headed by mikhail gorbachev, who already then launched the thesis about glasnost , that is, the system was already a little shaky, the system was no longer as integral as it was under gorbachev's predecessors, so it is possible that some leaks would have occurred, but i have no doubts that the goal is to do everything quietly ... what these mean, that is, he did not understand in general, what is it about, well, it is probably obvious, as a person of, let's say, party education, he was not obliged to understand physics, but it was unfortunate that he himself was not completely ignorant of physics, without understanding the threats of what happened, he finally decided what to do next, so the person who said what this meant absolutely did not understand the threat of what happened because he did not understand... the question of

evacuating those people who were in the greatest danger, moreover, all of them already the people of kyiv remember this story, because it all happened on the eve of may 1, well , of course, the leadership of the communist party of ukraine could not refuse the may day demonstration, that is, it would probably be considered some kind of great sacrilege, and we have interesting measurements of radiation in the documents. i will be in kyiv right at noon, when the children were baptized during this parade . in fact, they believed that everything should happen as it happened and that any extraordinary steps, any unexpected steps. well, they're just threatening their

system, that is, it was just, you know, such a vivid manifestation of an already dying system that is afraid of any steps, even to save itself, and in the end, i think that's exactly what happened then in the chernobyl accident, this completely unsuccessful attempt to hide its scale, it became the kind of shock that opened cracks throughout the system and led to its collapse. after after the orange revolution, and then after the revolution of dignity, in fact, ukrainians began to gain access to the archives of the kgb, to those materials that were, unfortunately, inaccessible before that, and which shed light on the chernobyl disaster. a lot appeared, including scientific works, there appeared, so to speak, your articles, which formed the basis of research later.

of the chernobyl disaster was under the auspices, under the auspices of the ukrainian institute of national remembrance these, these archives were published, one of the books was published, in which contained very... a lot of information that i read even in 2019, please tell me why until now, until 2004, and then during yanukovych's time, in fact, they tried to hide information about the chernobyl disaster, because, for example, the then under yanukovych, the head of the security service of ukraine , khoroshkovsky, he essentially removed it from the website of the service, and under yushchenko, we remember that in... the archives were opened for the first time, people got access for the first time, scientists got access, why even yanukovych's government tried to hide this information, i think they are not only hid information about chernobyl, about the consequences of chernobyl, the consequences of the disaster, because it was already more or less

known, in particular from some foreign publications, they actually hid kgb documents, because they were documents that contained information about hidden. information about methods of hiding information, that is, it was more important for them, methods of discrediting some people who provide information, methods of trying to invent some fake news, how journalists were brought from abroad, first journalists from communist publications there from western europe, who wrote that nothing really bad happened, everything was fine, then even journalists from western publications who... by some nuclear plants in the west, who wanted less panic, and let's go anyway let's say that nothing terrible happened, that the panic was exaggerated, let's extinguish this panic, so it seems to me that just in the times of already independent ukraine,

especially in the times of yanukovych, they were more embarrassed by this, more embarrassed that ukrainians did not see, did not understand these methods of these techniques, because these methods and techniques were very actively wanted to be used... by the representatives of this government, i remember very well how in 2008, when i was the curator of the archive of the security service of ukraine, how much resistance there was still within the system of the security service of ukraine itself, the essence this opposition was that we cannot expose the methods of action of the communist special services, because they can be useful, can be used everyday, it just shocked me at the time, because as a historian i knew perfectly well what the methods were. actions of communist special services, and it is obvious that to talk about something similar can and should be used in independent ukraine is to automatically admit that ukraine is definitely far from a democratic state and is not going to move in the direction of some european and democratic state, therefore it is actually one of the first steps of a new power in

2010, led by yanukovych and the new head of the security service, khoroshkovsky, and there was an attempt to drive this one back. the formation of this genie in a bottle, close these archives again, literally the first press conference of valery khoroshkovsky, at which the thesis that we had already discovered all the truth that needed to be discovered, that was enough, and then the systematic work began, not just stopping the archive for further opening, closing it back, a special commission was created, which reclassified documents, including documents, which also related to the chernobyl disaster, so i am very glad that after the victory of the revolution of dignity we... still managed to complete this work, we prepared, as the ukrainian court of national memory, a whole package of laws on decommunization, one of them just related to the opening of the kgb archive, they were approved in 2015, and the actual book you are talking about is the book chernobyl dossier, a two-volume set of kgb documents, which was published in

cooperation with the archives of the security service of ukraine and the ukrainian institute of national remembrance, these are wonderful documents , of which, for me personally, the most interesting documents are precisely those documents that do not... not only tell about what happened before the accident, what happened during the accident, but also what happened after the accident, that is, how purposefully, communist the special services tried to restrain the spread of information and, on the contrary, launch some fakes that nothing terrible actually happened. very often, by the way, the methods that mr. volodymyr talks about, the actual concealment of information, are paralleled with the methods. similar during the three famines by the soviet regime. so, for example, in one of the articles, one, more precisely, one of your articles about chernobyl, it is called first the information radiation, then. yes, you actually analyzed in detail the extent to which

this information blockade took place, i.e., to what extent kgb agents were actually operating in every city, in every village, in every street, on every... relatively speaking, a month, two or three after the chernobyl disaster, this happened systematically during the following years until the collapse of the soviet union. first, is it correct that we are talking about parallels with the holodomors, and yet, if we let's say, did the soviet union use, for example, foreign journalists or foreign... some specialists in order to hide this information about

the consequences of the chernobyl disaster? in fact, the methodologies are completely similar, that is , their essence was reduced to two goals, one is to restrain the spread of true information, the second is to direct information in the direction necessary for the regime, that is, to fill it with all kinds of fakes and disinformation, the only difference is that what... when we talk about holodomor, it happened in a completely totalitarian state, which had just been formed, which was completely controlled, all manifestations of the life of citizens were controlled by the authorities, then, when we talk about chernobyl, it is still a very late soviet union, covered with cracks, covered with some there by initiatives, even from the very top by mikhail gorbachev about democratization, glasnost and so on, so on. these technologies, which worked, were effective in suppressing the truth about the holodomor, in spreading

lies about the holodomor, in the question of the chernobyl accident was also used, but they simply did not work effectively, there were cases when journalists were transported specifically in order to show that in fact there is no threat, that is, that people can return, that it will be possible to live here, but again , this is after all already... er , the period of 1986, the period when the soviet power was weaker, and the opportunities for obtaining some information in ukraine, even from the west, the same radio, the same the so- called enemy voices themselves, radio liberty or the voice america was much bigger, this was not the case in the 30s, and in the end, despite the colossal resources, the efforts that the communist government threw at spreading the truth, at... stopping the spread of true information to spread actual fakes, they did not work . and if as early as 1987 we have

kgb documents that speak of successful attempts to interfere with some rallies that were being prepared for the anniversary of the chernobyl accident, in 1987 various kinds of activists failed to do so, then in 1988 the kgb failed. in 1988, the first a rally not authorized by the soviet authorities. this is the second anniversary of the second anniversary of the chornobyl accident, and it is very symbolic that this event became one of the first such manifestations of democracy already in ukraine, why did it happen, why did this environmental topic, the topic of the disaster, become such a powerful force for many people to reject soviet identity, because it became clear that the government was lying, it became clear that this lie. can simply kill and it became clear that this is such a conditional social one

the agreement that was in the soviet union that, well, we give you our freedom, you take away our freedom, but in return you give us some sense of security, that it is violated by the authorities, that people who put up with the fact that they don't have freedom of access to information, but they believed the authorities, they did what the authorities said, they suffered the most, they... were the ones who were sure that nothing bad happened, they were the ones who thought that the authorities will protect, and actually this did not happen, these people suffered, and this and this became a terrible blow for many residents of then-soviet ukraine, who realized, well, what a world of lies, what a dangerous lie they live in, and these first rallies since 1988 led to the fact that in this opposition until soviet power in russia appears powerful. a logical component, moreover, these were exclusively political, that is, some dissidents, former political prisoners, but the appearance in

this narrative of the struggle against the soviet government, the environmental movement gave him, well, a very powerful push forward and led him to and world level, because the trouble that happened in ukraine began to be talked about in the world, because the trouble that happened in ukraine began to be talked about by ukrainians far outside the borders of ukraine in order to remind once again that this trouble happened precisely because ukrainians does not have its own state, this trouble happened because there is a totalitarian occupying soviet government, so that in fact ukraine is occupied, but here is a very interesting thing, we are coming to the point that in fact the chernobyl disaster... the pro was such a trigger for disintegration soviet union, you agree with this thesis, of course without diminishing the essence of the actions of, for example, our dissidents, the sixties, the liberation movement, we do not diminish, we do not diminish, but it is necessary to understand that the movements, these political movements of dissidents, participants of the national

democratic movement, as mostly political movements, well they, they were not mass, that is... intellectual people and gathered around themselves rather such people who were intellectually prepared and ready for some such radical steps, because they perfectly understood that what it was for them means, on the other hand, the chernobyl disaster mobilized many more people, it pushed ordinary people to protest against the authorities, which betrayed and lied to them, who would probably never have specifically joined any political processes. that's why she really added to this anti-soviet national-democratic movement a mass that was not there before, it was only gaining momentum, and it was this push that gave it, well, it gave it the opportunity to go to another level, you called it in one of the lectures this catastrophe of the name

lenin, more precisely, even your lecture was called that it was the chernobyl disaster of the name... please explain this name, why did you mark it like that? well , first of all, the chernobyl nuclear power plant itself, its official name is the volodymyr ilovich lenin chernobyl nuclear power plant, that is, it was natural to call everything after lenin in the soviet union. if we are talking about why the disaster named after lenin, then it is because , for sure, if you look very deeply into the roots of this disaster, then they begin with lenin, that is, from this person who created this system, the totalitarian system, this communist regime. the logical consequence of which was this accident, which could not have happened, as we said at the beginning of our conversation, given the way the construction of this power plant was approached, and the consequences of this accident, that is, they are also a logical consequence of this system that was created vladimir lenin, a completely closed system that did not provide for any dissemination of information, which was not even

closed for a long time even for any help from the outside, that is, for a long time, the soviet union rejected any... any support from the capitalist and allegedly harmful to the people of the west, and believing that it could handle this problem by itself, in the end, as time has shown, no, not the soviet union coped with this problem neither from the point of view of politics nor from the point of view of ecology, and only the fact that this problem has already begun to be solved at the world level allowed... will partially overcome the consequences of this disaster. as a historian, a public figure, you still devoted a lot of time and years to rethink the narratives and views on the chernobyl disaster and on the date of commemoration of the victims of the chernobyl disaster. how should we perceive

this date, this catastrophe, this terrible one over the years? an event in the history of mankind, because in the 90s we perceived it one way, in the 2000s we perceived it differently, and today it is already in times of a great war, including the occupation of one of the nuclear power plants rashists, how to perceive it today, how to present the correct narrative to society, what it is, how it is, how to explain to people, including and future generations, i think, as one of the, unfortunately, natural consequences of the functioning of the totalitarian system in ukraine, this is not an accident, that is, it is the result of all this systemic work, and as an example of what can happen to people in the system, which completely disregards people, and you absolutely rightly reminded that even now

one of the nuclear power plants, unfortunately, is under the russian occupiers, er, this is a very serious warning, because, as history shows, er, these these people do not count human lives, and it is extremely important for us, talking about the chornobyl disaster in 1986, to warn the world about the one in whose hands such a powerful and threatening mechanism as a nuclear power plant is again, and why the whole world should now unite in order to do so... that chernobyl never happens again, because as long as russians, russian troops, and the russian government are there, unfortunately, there are no guarantees that chernobyl will not happen again. we remembered you. about the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, now it hurts many people, all of us, because we do not know what can happen at any moment, in fact

, this is the attitude of the russians towards the situation at the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, the attitude towards the people who work there, in general, absolutely negligent, negligent attitude and the constant provocations they carry out, it can be considered as ... certain rightful succession even here to russia in relation to the soviet union? absolutely, but among the materials that we published, there are obviously materials of the investigation into the causes of the accident that occurred on april 26, 1986, and in the end all possible theories about some terrorist attacks and so on, and came to the simple but very specific conclusion that the accident was the result of employee negligence. the result of a completely careless culture, there is even such a word used, which prevailed among the workers, who considered it possible to do

some things that ultimately led to the accident, what is happening now, unfortunately, at the zaporizhzhia power plant, it is also obvious that the language it is about the same culture, but unfortunately, the situation may be more dangerous in some respects, because the russians, as we saw after the explosion of kakhovskaya. hess are ready to use even such objects of civilian infrastructure as weapons and mass destruction as a mere tool for their terrorism, so the situation here is in some respects even worse than chernobyl. and in conclusion, what should we do to ukrainians, the ukrainian state, the authorities in order to explain to the world community, to explain... in general to the entire civilized world and the uncivilized world about what is happening now, so that we do not repeat this terrible catastrophe that was at the chernobyl nuclear power plant, already

nowadays, during the great war in zaporizhzhia, talk to the world, it seems to me that we really lack some kind of systemic information policy in the world, but i already mentioned today about the kakhovka hydroelectric power station, in my opinion, this is an example of the complete failure of information communication of ukraine with the world while the single marathon gathered with some messages, how to explain what happened, the information has already gone out into the world that not everything is so unambiguous, what russia needed, we need to talk about what is happening now in a real context in the broader context of ukrainian history, it is very good that there are people who do this, there are books by serhiy plokhiy, there are already two books that tell about chernobyl, extremely important, there is a wonderful hbo series about chernobyl, which also tells about these events. but it must be explained that the connection between what is happening now and those events that took place in the soviet past, because unfortunately, in the west, soviet

history was very often considered, was considered and to a large extent is considered exclusively through the prism of some russian academic glasses, ot we need to help our western academic environment to get rid of those soviet academic glasses, and i think that this is one of our missions, and for this... we need very systematic informational support from the ukrainian state, i am very sorry that in such an important time for the country, we essentially do not have a foreign language, that is , we have some poor houses of freedom who first spoke russian and now ukrainian, but nevertheless, who definitely do not speak english, who definitely do not bring the necessary information about ukraine to the world, and not convey a lot of pro-ukrainian narratives from the point of view of the ukrainian point of view. east, mr. volodymyr, i am extremely grateful to you for this conversation, regardless of how many years may pass since the chernobyl disaster, since april 26

, 1986, we must remember, we must understand why it happened, and we must to take into account all the experience and all the problems we had in the past, in order not to repeat them... in the present and most importantly in the future. thank you. longit cream relieves pain, reduces swelling and improves joint mobility. dolgit cream can be used even on foot. dolgit is the only yellow cream for joint pain. kratal contains natural components. who carefully care for your heart. kratal improves blood supply and the functional state of the myocardium, normalizes the heart rate , and increases physical and mental performance. kratal is a natural force for

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stronger together. 6 p.m. in ukraine, news time on the espresso tv channel. in the studio of iryna koval. greetings to all viewers. the russian invaders hit kharkiv again during the day, and invaded the city tv tower, informed the head of the regional military administration oleg sinigubov. at the time of the shelling, the employees were in shelter, so they escaped unhurt. at the same time

, changes arose in the city. with a digital television signal. the enemy also attacked vovchansk, dergachi and the village of slobozhanske.