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politclub on the espresso tv channel. the most relevant topics of the week. russia's war against ukraine. war in the middle east. crisis on the border between ukraine and poland. topics that resonate in our society. drone attack on kyiv and other cities of ukraine. drone attacks on moscow and other russian cities. analysis of the processes that change the country and each of us. country. get the right to start negotiations on joining the eu. vitaly portnikov and guests of the project: us it's boring because there's nothing to fight about, let's get out, they help understand the present and predict the future. for the world, a second trump presidency will be unpleasant. a project for those who care and think. political club. every sunday at 20:10 at espresso.

premium sponsor of the national team presents: united by football, stronger together! saturday political club, live broadcast, we are back, and we already have one more guest, this is valery chaly, the ambassador of ukraine to the united states of america. in 2015-2019, mr. valery, good evening, i congratulate you, glory to ukraine, good evening, glory, so let's talk about this publication in dievelt, where in the end they talked about the details of those russian proposals that formed the basis of the agreements in istanbul, which were never initialed in both countries, i think it is also important because just yesterday oleksandr...

lukashenko, during his speech at the all-belarusian people's assembly, said that russia and ukraine should sit down at the negotiating table, and these agreements should become the framework for the start of consultations? well, it's already such an impression that we remember the distant past, i'll just remind you that how many were there from the civil society of ukraine from the military in the 22nd year, march-april, how many and what was the reaction. to the fact that we found out that something was being prepared there, i will tell you, well, then i actually wrote 10 questions that the authorities should do so that it would not be difficult after a few years, in principle, they did it then the decree, the delegation was formed and the directives were issued, well, of course, after that, after, i don't know why then the authorities were so

negatively disposed to the discussion, because, for example, i was simply commissioned just told to delete from all channels, by the way, thanks to espresso, just espresso is the fifth live channel that is now deleted, that they were broadcasting, and obviously, i saw not only this first page, even from those press conferences, remember in istanbul, where our participants were, they are there, i will remind you... in four voices each told his story, which surprised me immediately, and the composition of this delegation surprised me very much, there are my colleagues, former diplomats, former student sasha malinovsky or oleksandr malinovsky, what is the truth now a very experienced lawyer, oleksandr chaliy, who actually formed the basis of the concept of these people, international lawyers, i see the preamble of this document, with a false note. about

the declaration of state sovereignty, which forever determined our neutral status, this story has been going on for years, and why would there be a lie, but to directly give the russians this... weapon against us, i don't understand, that's why this is the page where we had to draw conclusions, because this is a trap, behind such a wrapper, there was actually the disarmament of ukraine, and ukraine was defenseless in front of everything, well, it’s clear where it was leading to, wasn’t it unclear, so in principle, i think that this should already be an example of, well, exactly... mistakes that should not be repeated, understanding the basic interests of russia , that is, she is going to destroy ukraine, and she will not give up on this, why count on the same story with a record again, as they did, frankly speaking, at one time they also

believed in russia that they should record a treaty of friendship, partnership, cooperation, sovereignty is clearly written there, nothing interference in internal affairs, for this... they compromised with russia, allowed to have a base in crimea there for 20 years, that is, it is all russia , russia cannot be trusted, that is, any, i will even say more, probably russia is not now, this regime is not agreeable, uh, well, that's for sure, it 's easy to see that they can't withstand international agreements or international rules, so on the one hand, firstly, those who will start speaking now, including the participants, are... of this delegation from the ukrainian side, and some of them, well, remained in their positions, they work for important positions in ukraine, and some, well, if experts who continue campaigning in europe, saying that there was a good chance, well, it is absolutely cynical to say so, because

there was no chance, putin had completely different goals, there were and are, more moreover, russia was also interested in it then, and putin himself did not want it, the appetites were great. that is, all this would not have increased, because it is in its basic design, it is absolutely catastrophically wrong, even if i tell you such a thing, let them tell me, as a neutral state, how they wanted to do a neutral state that gives up its ability to be in collective defense, why should it reduce its army to 85,000, why should it also decapitate itself and make itself absolutely... defenseless, can someone explain why collective defense can be somewhat balance at the expense of others, in a neutral state, well, you can only tell some people who do not understand the situation, so it is now

thrown in, i think, in order to put pressure on ukraine in that regard, that's all just have to agree. on various capitulation conditions, that's all, and if the ukrainians will play along with this, i will once again , just as i did today, come out and say that this is playing along, they play along with the aggressor, and all these words are said that our men and women are dying , this does not explain their position, because many more will die if this course of events is allowed. mr. valery, you have already rightly said about why such documents are thrown into the mass media in general, this raises the question of whether such initiatives are possible now or in the future from one of the parties, and whether in principle, conditionally speaking, even some

western countries or even russia itself would be ready to return and promote this agenda, such and such similar agreements, as we have seen. actually now in the western press, i will say my subjective point of view, what appeared recently, also through zmi, for some reason it was called erdogan's plan, or the turkish plan, you remember, but in fact, i know, i myself his such a small investigation, a russian cyplan, he is strange imported there in a way, well, it is real, it is printed there on paper, and this one... now it is coming back as well, i think for me this is evidence that russia is groping for some kind of understanding of the possibilities, uh, she also wants to look somewhere, how ukrainian society reacts, how much it divides and which strata, that is, in

principle then, at that time this plan was rather made, i mean the istanbul or this document, although for the sake of justice. it must be said that it did not reach a normal document, it was just a preparation, though there are some signatures from the ukrainian side, but this is not an internationally legal document, so ... now, and then, and now, this is an attempt to play again this game of subversion from within ukrainian society, no more, no less, so it seems to me that russia feels that we do not see that they have serious problems, they see them and are starting to do so even now and earlier, they are starting, well , at least to test the situation, that is, this is approximately their desire, if... well, i, you you know, i don't know what to say about this, because i only know one thing, that's all

what was possible from russia, speaking from the point of view of the treaties, the page has already been turned, turned by this regime, only force methods, only force means, they can understand, maybe this is an attempt to test in ukraine, so that our partners will pressurize later, well, as if what is perceived... by ukrainian society there, you can say so, but i emphasize once again, it will not end with these kind of agreements, there will be no such thing, that is, everything is the main agreement and everything that will happen after the completion of this russian-ukrainian stage, perennial, maybe, well, you don't want to, of course, but rather just a few decades of confrontation, that's all, well, this large-scale, this part can end without any. any agreements, it may end with what will be recorded in the war,

both on sukhodoli and in other parts. but even in this dievelt publication it is said that russia then began to make additional demands to ukraine that could not be accepted by any means, that is to declare russian the second state language, something like that, the impression is that they are still trying all the time to make the document destabilizing to such an extent as to guarantee chaos and even it is not... hidden in them even, i would say, there is not enough patience to somehow do it, well, i didn't tell you, uh, how to say it, carefully or there with the creation of some kind of illusion, a real agreement, this is also interesting, there is this, well, it was recorded right away why the negotiators were happy, i don’t know if all of them were happy, but oleksandr chaly, my namesake, said, we have achieved.. . that russia accepted, i will carefully say, as he said, they will not talk about denazification,

at least this word is not written there so directly , you understand what it leads to, well , denazification is here, it is written there that you, well , you are sitting in your house, well, yes, you are now being thrown molotov cocktails from all sides in windows, something hits, something... is reflected, you are somehow protected, and you are offered to simply open the walls altogether, destroy, leave the glass walls, give away everything you had in your hands, you are sitting with your family, and then they tell you, come to this window, yes, come on, take off your pants, hand it over to us, no, i don't want to, no, no, no, take it off, take it off, now i'll break the glass, then they'll approach, and come on, and on, that's all, that's what russia is trying to achieve... . control over ukraine, that otherwise, no right, no, none, but from the moment of such

agreements, everything is immediately removed, and the sanctions are removed, and the process is reversed, that is, it is a trap, it is obvious that it's a trap, and the fact that they insert all kinds of moments there every time, well, it really proves that i once again confirm that this one of the tools, well, maybe a wide one... there was already such an information and psychological operation, is this now part of such a wide operation, we will see if additional agents should rise in europe or ukraine, it should be promoted from the point of view, well, look , well, there was an opportunity, we missed it, and now we must not miss it, that is why ukrainian sons and daughters will continue to die, this will now be epso, this is pure epso, which does not lead to anything in practice, because at the same time. the russians do something completely different, absolutely other things, well, i just, i just remembered how

in 2004, a long time ago, so to speak, when there was yanukovych's election campaign and also, they confidently led him to victory there, then in his moscow headquarters at a meeting the then vice- the speaker of the state duma lyubov slyska was told that how are we helping him, he is not doing anything pleasant for us, let's write in his program that he should declare russian the state language in... ukraine, and they, as you remember , they did, he made the following statement, that is, 20 years pass, 20 years, and they have the impression that they are some kind of androids, nothing changes, they are with them all the time. the same tape scrolls, mr. vitaly, unfortunately, it sits deep, i, i would say, i faced it myself, it surprised me, when even in negotiations with the russians, they could easily lie, could set you up , i was convinced of this a long time ago, they have their own style, well

, this style dates back to soviet times, and in principle, in contrast to... ukrainian diplomacy there, the practice of negotiation is this soviet -russian myth is still tolerated, well, not only, that is, in principle, i will tell you one more thing, they themselves sometimes cannot react correctly, that is, putin has already reminded several times about this ee, well, you cannot name it contract, the project can... the document there is an agreement about it, about neutrality, security guarantees, that's what it's called, that's what he's already shown it several times, that is, he 's muddled by this situation, i think that he's in at one time, apparently the appetite was high, big, he even medinsky, who was from the russian side, was not immediately received in the office, and he

was very disappointed, because he went there, walked, thought, he was doing a great mission, and this, by the way, is evidence that it was just... one of the maneuvers, he thought about it, even medinsky himself did not understand this, and it was clear then, immediately after the negotiations, after already around april 15, when, by the way, the negotiations continued, and this is also strange, because they continued after buchi already, and they continued, what were the ukrainian negotiators counting on sides, what do they count on, that russia will suddenly change, putin will stand together... there with patrushev or with piskov, they will directly become angels, what can you count on, i don’t understand this, here you need to strengthen your position as much as possible, at the expense of partners, at the expense of weapons, arms production, that is, it must be done, well, that is the official position in our country, in fact, it is already official now, but i will remind you again, first, this is an example for us, first,

a normal discussion should take place in the country as well, so that putin did not take advantage of this opportunity. on the distribution should be a discussion, and i remember when it was there at that time in march, everyone who expressed some kind of criticism was simply pressured from all sides, that is, journalists, experts, then two months later the president of ukraine, volodymyr, spoke about it zelensky, everything is fine, i'm sorry, but those journalists, where are they, where are they, where are they going to put their ugly faces. at the time that they were forbidding, censoring themselves from going on the air, but these very people who were wrong, they put on the air, carrying out propaganda, you know, we are still, thank god, that we united and did not miss this blow, because i am afraid that kyiv would then already be russian after this, the 22nd year of this

temporary compromise, that is, you can do it on your fingers ... to show everything, so it’s not necessary, on the one hand, on the other hand, it’s all hypothetical, let’s turn the page from the point of view of these plans, from the point of view of working on mistakes and how we don’t need to negotiate, i think it’s all necessary somewhere - keep in mind, because this is not the way to conduct negotiations with russia, you can fall into a trap, and what is happening now, again, well, the actual negotiating group has not been changed. it is the same, the president did not change the decree, there is the same group, i see that some of the members of this group go to various world summits there, well , in particular, oleksandr chalyi saw india there , that is, i don’t understand, this whole thing continues story in the same context, we have

the same approach, how can we keep it the same. east and at the same time now call for the invitation of ukraine to nato. somehow it is necessary to clarify the situation. i think it's time to do something even with this decree. he , in my opinion, has exhausted himself at this point, because it is very surprising that he remains. so please, those who are involved in this, suggest to the president to stop this decree now, because he has already played his part. thank you thank you for your answers. opinions and your rhetorical questions, including valeriy chaly, the ambassador of ukraine to the united states of america in 2015-2019, were in direct contact with us. and we already have one more guest, this ihor semivolos, director of the center for middle eastern studies. mr. igor,

good evening. good evening, congratulations, colleagues. congratulations well, so, you know, there was a deadline for the last chinese warning, and now i have the impression that there is a deadline for the last american warning to china, well, by and large, the last chinese warning. and here we see, the secretary of state of the united states in beijing says rather harshly that if the chinese. will not create real opportunities for ending military-technical cooperation with the russian federation, then washington itself will do it, a serious conversation, at the same time the defense ministers of the russian federation of the people's republic of china are meeting in astana, absolutely confident, shaking hands, talking about strategic partnership, talking about military ties of both countries, there is not even a hint, that xi jinping is going to listen to blinken, because i think we understand that if there was... yes, it is clear that china would not go to the extent that, at the same time as the us secretary of state is in beijing, the secretary of defense

china would shake shaigu's hand in astana. well, at least two considerations: the first consideration is that the words have been said, now washington has to answer for them. i think blinken is quite an important figure in the american hierarchy, and, therefore, accordingly. we must watch our hands now and understand what steps the united states of america can take to prevent such a development . i can certainly imagine that they would say it didn't happen, or at least deny it, or at least be delay, that is, this fact is also known and you can make a good mine with a bad game, but well... this will undermine, seriously undermine the american position, europe is closely watching blinken's words, according to the americans,

europe has its own interests in china, well take the same macron, and therefore it is obvious that they cannot simply not respond to these statements and these desires, and washington is. firstly, secondly, the chinese in turn also declared that if the united states of america crossed the red lines, then accordingly, there will be ay-yy-yy. and this rather resembles all these 101 chinese warnings, but again, no one has drawn these red lines, no one knows the specific red lines and what they consist of. well, obviously, these are already concrete steps that will be directed against chinese banks. the chinese payment system or something similar, well, as an option , of course, the strait of malacca can be considered , at one time, in the early 2000s, the americans

conducted such an experiment, when the strait of molasses could be blocked, and essentially the entire chinese exports stop in the china, south china sea, so there may be a lot of debate around that, but the word is said, i think we have it now. monitor the actions of washington and beijing, i would like to talk with you about the next, so-called stage of relations between russia and iran, a new level of relations, this is what the official representatives of these two states said, talking about the actual deepening of military cooperation, what it can be and how does it threaten our state? well, first of all, of course, everyone is worried summer supply yes, that is, we understand that the story with the delivery of these planes dragged on for at least a year. rumor has it that one of the key reasons why the russians delayed

the delivery of the aircraft, although it was an agreement, and it seems that money was allocated for it. it consists in the fact that there are agreements between russia and israel and, accordingly, this parity, which provides for the non-supply of offensives. weapons, su-35, of course, this is an offensive weapon, iran, accordingly, israel does not support ukraine. if this story changes in any way, we will soon see it too sometimes, because now a lot of information on this topic appears, and the iranians will definitely tell about it, that is, they will not keep it a secret, then the relations between israel and... and russia should change accordingly, from from changing, or maybe they won’t change, that is, in this case, they can refer to another agreement that the russians

close their eyes to... the passage of israeli planes over the territory of syria, that is, when they strike at the positions of the iranians or at the positions of hizballah or others about iranian corps groups on the territory of this country, that is, in this case, and as for the very fact of deepening cooperation, well, it is obvious that this was also quite predicted, taking into account the fact that the rapprochement of... iran and russia is inevitable against the background of the war in russia in ukraine and against the background of the essentially hybrid war between israel and iran. and in this case, it is safe to say that there are only small things left in order for these two countries to conclude an appropriate pact that could establish a new level of relations. in

principle, if we talk about these relationships at the level of resistance to the west, we can say that there is such tripartite coordination at the level of iran, china, russia, because there are joint military exercises, but joint political coordination is at the level of tehran, beijing, moscow? i think there is, and maybe it is not, well, not recorded, obviously, obviously, that is, so that we can already talk about really about the pact, but... coordination without a doubt exists, well, at least at the level, at the level of consultations, you can definitely say , that such consultations are taking place, what is happening now in the turkish-american turk, recently rajeb teypagan met with ismail haniya, the leader of hamas, it was absolutely a demonstration meeting, i would say, and with that avdagan did not go to the united states, there is no official explanation for this, but they say that this is an attempt

to protest against. from a public point of view against the vote of the american congress on allocating aid to israel, we are here focused on aid to ukraine, but we understand that aid to israel is also a very important political factor. yes, without a doubt. i think that, well, at least that's how they interpret it not his trip, in the turkish press, in the arab press, that is, they just emphasize that one of the key reasons is the vote. voting for aid to israel and a veto on palestine for the creation of a state in the security environment, that is , we can actually state that turkey is now de facto, if it took the side of those countries that are currently fighting with israel, in

this case, what is the place so... do you see turkey for the next time, or is this just some kind of political demonstration? no, turkey is not fighting israel, it is exaggeration. turkey demonstrates its position, this position remains unchanged for a long time. essentially the entire time of, say, the netanyahu government, or more. we saw exactly this turkish position, but the deterioration of relations happened, you know, a long time ago, that is, back in the zero years, when the israelis attacked a turkish ship, and therefore, there is nothing new here, yes, this is a position, the position is perceived by the majority of the turkish population, and erdogan himself

is quite comfortable with this position. what others well, let's say, there, the partners are not ready to accept this position, it is erdogan who does not avoid it, that is, he, in principle , can normally demonstrate his independent, independent position on this issue, since there is no clear, unambiguous position on palestine, including among nato countries and or among this war or among... the west as a whole, but on the other hand, we see a situation where erdogan now has to justify himself to the more radical islamic public in turkey, because he, criticizing israel does nothing economically for his glorification? yes, without a doubt, well, this is a political, internal political struggle, we know that...