that's why we believe that some kind of falsification of documents continues, because it's not normal when the court sits in a private room for at least a week, and at the same time gives the decision to my client in the car and hands it over, that's why this is the situation, we started calling the police at night, recording , that the person actually disappeared, that he was supposed to be released, but didn't come out, on monday morning around 11:00, we received this court decision that he automatically remains in custody for another two months, and the court adjourned... meeting on may 25, may, person under for more than a month, the meeting was postponed for unknown reasons, and since that time, we are now, firstly, appealing this court decision, now an appeal hearing on this decision is scheduled for april 30, and secondly, we declare all these illegal actions to the relevant authorities, the state bureau of investigation and the supreme council of justice. can you explain to our viewers to what extent this is...

allowed, er, what is the point of the case, what is the evidence base of the prosecution? look, in my opinion, i don't see any evidence base for the prosecution at all. the only thing that was done, it was the side of the prosecution artificially created two military examinations. how was it done? in his report, the sbu employee writes: one of the servicemen reported the presence of servicemen at the kanatove airfield. and techniques, the investigator rewrites all this in his decision on the appointment of an expert examination, and the experts take it as a fact that yes, someone reported, there is no evidence for this, no person, no witness, no document testifies that at least someone reported that at that moment on there will be equipment at the airfield, there will be military personnel at the airfield, all the more concentrated in one place in order to shoot down a russian plane, no, it's all a fiction, it's all based on the conviction of my client, i support his opinion. falsification of documents, and all the other

evidence, in my opinion, points precisely in the direction of the defense, because the witnesses who were questioned during the pre-trial investigation in court are roman's direct management, this is his commander and the commander of the unit in which roman was on duty ties, they noted that roman did not acted arbitrarily, roman reported on this situation, constantly made reports on this operation. and this information was later brought to the attention of the commander-in-chief. during the trial, we will consider all these details in detail, again interrogate these witnesses, establish all these circumstances. as it was stated in your story, yes, why did the sbu attack, first of all, arbitrary actions? no, the actions were not arbitrary, moreover, roman's commander, major general, he gave an interview, even about what roman agreed with him all these actions, and all these actions agreed further. there was no arbitrariness, regarding the sbu,

it is worth noting separately that in the case of the sbu, which took part in this operation and initiated it, well, it cannot be that the sbu is investigating its own operation, well , this cannot be, we are one of the first sessions , they said that the investigation was violated, the investigator in this case interrogated, including the former head of the sbu, and he interrogated him not in the premises of the sbu, but on the territory. the place where this person works now is somehow privileged the attitude towards the witness in the case, when the witness is not interrogated like all ordinary witnesses, in his own office, the investigator interrogated other sbu management, deputy heads of departments, and as a witness, as an investigator who is a subordinate of these people, can objectively interrogate them , no way, and we repeatedly drew attention to this, that such a situation should be corrected and this case should... be transferred

to another body, but unfortunately, this was not done, and we will question all the evidence precisely in connection, including with this one, because the sbu could not to carry out a proper, proper pre-trial investigation of this case. is it correct, i understand that one of the main witnesses in this case is valery zaluzhnyi? well, yes, you understand correctly, and we asked the investigation to question. him, since one of our witnesses indicates that he made a report to mr. zaluzhnyi on this situation, and accordingly received permission for all these actions, therefore, but mr. valery zaluzhnyi has not yet been interrogated, no, moreover, i will say, we received the decision of the court, by which the investigator was obliged to consider such a request of ours, i.e in fact, today we are talking about the non-implementation of the court decision by the investigator, the investigator never carried out these actions, although we repeatedly wrote with... an appeal, moreover, i will tell you that in

the case, which has already been given to us in full, there is not even a single summons sent the relevant witness. ms. lyudmila, are you considering, in view of everything that has just been announced, the possibility of filing a statement or appeal to the european court of human rights. this is what my colleagues are doing, there are enough of us in the case, well, i am not alone, and my colleagues are doing this, they directly submit such complaints, several complaints have already been submitted, we have not received any decisions yet, as soon as we receive them, we will definitely inform the society about them. tell me, please, do his colleagues from the service, the security service of ukraine, support roman cherovinsky in one way or another? it is rather difficult to talk about the security service of ukraine, because during the pre-trial

investigation, witnesses who are sbu employees were actually pressured, they were not allowed to come to the court session and... the testimony of how it happened is a witness who directly could report that this operation was initiated in the sbu, and he also received all the necessary permissions from his management to carry out certain actions. so, this witness was not allowed to the court hearings as follows: we will receive a summons from the court to summon him, send it to him, he is immediately sent on a business trip, to some distant city several hundred kilometers away , so that he physically... could not appear before the court, and this happened five times during the pre-trial investigation. in your opinion, which one reason? is the reason that an employee of the sbu will come and say that yes, this is an operation carried out by the sbu, yes from the sbu, from my management, including the highest, i received the appropriate permissions to carry out

all these actions, including the involvement the military, plus the sbu will need to explain how the letter was processed, because there is one thing in the case: among the evidence is a letter signed by mr. zaluzhny in the name of mr. bakanov, in which valery fedorovych asks to second an employee of the sbu to the sso for the purpose of retrieving armed with russian aggression federation, but this letter was directly in this operation, it was connected with this operation, which we paid attention to, and the sbu will have to explain why they dismissed their employee in such a case and in connection with what day. and i think they won't be able to explain it somehow. ms. ludmila, as far as i know, roman chervinskyi is or was involved in two more criminal proceedings, do you know anything about it? i don't know, maybe you can explain to me in more detail, then i can

explain something. it is about a case where he allegedly pretended to be an employee of the border service, and you? demanded money, can you tell me, right? yes, this is a case in which he was really informed of the suspicion, it is in general some kind of absolute nonsense, because the case is completely and completely made up, it appeared at the stage when roman was already in the pre-trial detention center, and the conviction is based on my conviction , the arguments of the defense were so strong that the prosecution was afraid that roman was about to be released from custody, and for this they needed to re... insure themselves so that as soon as he will be released from custody, immediately in principle do the same actions with him and take him into custody again, this is the only purpose of this criminal offense, because he has nothing to do with him at all, none, and this case is currently in pre-trial

investigation, the case materials are open there, but she has very, very strange prospects, what the investigation will do with her in the future is not clear'. because there is no evidence about roman in the materials there. the second case, regarding the alleged desertion of roman chego, is clear. this is also such nonsense in general legal. how did this case appear and in connection with what? after all these events took place at kanatovo, roman was transferred to another position, to another military unit. transferred by whom, i apologize, to the commander-in-chief, valery zaluzhyn, yes, yes, there was a corresponding order and roman was transferred to another position, and this order, this military unit, it was located quite far from the city of kyiv and the kyiv region, this order roman appealed to court because he

wrote a preliminary report about what he has three minor children, and in such a case he has the right to serve in the territory of the region where the family is located, he wrote: he was denied this report, he appealed to the court against the order to transfer him accordingly, this case was won in the first instance, in the appellate instance the decision was annulled. and so, in february of this year, we received a decision of the supreme court, where the supreme court canceled the order on his transfer to that military unit. meanwhile, during this period of time, the sbi opens a criminal case proceedings for the fact that roman did not appear there in the military unit where he was transferred. it is factual, in it, in this proceeding , roman was not informed of the suspicion, the proceeding itself was based on the fact of chervinsky's non-appearance at a certain military unit. after we received the decision of the supreme court, where it was written that this order was accordingly canceled and roman is no longer

required to come anywhere, we sent this order to the state security bureau, and here the most interesting thing began, both the state security bureau and the prosecutor, who, accordingly supervises this proceeding, we were denied closure case, and because roman has nothing to do with this case, he is nobody there, we went to court, appealed this decision, again... and the court obliged to properly consider our petition, we were refused again, again with the same wording that chervinskyi roman has nothing to do with this proceeding, this proceeding is factual based on the fact that the person did not show up to the military unit, that is, the proceeding is actually related to roman, but it is not related to roman, somehow. ms. lyudmila, this whole story is from this court session, with other two court cases. it, well, at least looks like some kind of political or personal

persecution of the colonel, what do you think about this, what does roman chervinsky himself actually say? roman hryhorovych has repeatedly stated that he sees this as political persecution for those things that he announced to the general public at a certain time, for those operations that he conducted and failed, i somehow... this is an unallocated right, i can only convey directly his words in this part, at every court session he talks about it, and other explanations for how it all happens and what i explained to you about other criminal proceedings, how it all is, this course of events, unfortunately, it carries little legal significance. finally, i want to ask you about your... expectations, how this whole story can end? i believe that this story

will end with a vindication for roman. i am sure of this, because all the evidence of the prosecution is already open to us, and we have collected quite a lot of our evidence over the course of a year, which clearly indicate his innocence in these actions, and i will end with what i started: none of the ukrainian military is guilty, defending the motherland , that the russian federation is shelling, including... military objects, so i believe that no ukrainian a military man who acted lawfully, who defended his homeland cannot be accused of the actions of russia. ms. ludmila, i thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us, and like our viewers, i hope for a fair court decision. the espresso tv channel is on the air, stay with us. and so we return to

conversations after the rather difficult story with colonel chervinsky, because even in the days of the regionals , the judicial branch of government did not see such chaos at times, we will get to one more difficult topic, because our guest is the head of the ukrainian association in poland, myroslav skirka, mr. myroslav. we are happy to welcome you, good day, glory to ukraine, glory to us, we will talk about the vistula operation at your place, young viewers can google it, or maybe they have already learned something at school, it is said that this is a very difficult story between the poles and by ukrainians, it corresponds to the times when there was soviet power in poland, which in the polish soviet power, accordingly , a mass crime was committed to uproot

ukrainians and their ethnic native lands in the west and east of poland and were thrown to the west and to the northern lands, and these stories have always been difficult, because this story is often political, i mean that politicians quite often use it in current real politics, historical memory with different interpretations. but when the war started, these topics and volyn, and the vistula actions, they disappeared from that political discourse, and we were very surprised. until recently, when it arose again, and it was said that there was nothing terrible there, it was due to the state interests of the security of poland, this is how the prosecutor's office added fuel to the fire, which seemed to have already died out and passed into the hands of historians, why this happened, paradoxical

the action has entered, this action is tragic, but the person of this action is quite simple. why, because we are dealing with the biggest deportation, the biggest crime that happened in poland in the post-war period in relation to the citizens of poland, which is true of ukrainian nationality, but they were all citizens of poland, let me remind you that in 1947 the communist authorities deported 153 thousand people from the territory of south-eastern poland and scattered these people with the aim of their complete assimilation on the territory of northern and western poland, that is, to those territories that were annexed, annexed to poland from germany, er, and there were, er, after 1990 , when it was possible to start talking about such complex issues, questions shares of vistula was quite unambiguous, because

already in 1990 the senate of polish poland approved the decision. a decision that this action was a crime, but the sejm, i.e. the second house or the first main house of the polish parliament, did not accept it, and only this decision remained. we remember later that in 1997, in 1997, a monument was opened on the territory of the yavozhno concentration camp, where almost 4,000 people were detained during the vistula campaign, including almost 170 people who died. died a tragic death there, people who were there, sat, did not want, did not want, did not want to remember, in fact, those people are no longer alive, but it was so tragic, such a cruel test that people did not want to return with the memory of what was there was taking place, so the vistula action was then condemned in that, at that moment, in those

events of the opening of the monument in yavozhna , president kvashnetsky and president kuchma were present, and it seemed... that there was a fairly clear understanding on the part of the two states , it was a crime, it was a crime aimed at bringing about the assimilation of people, uprooting of the ukrainian population in the territory of poland and, as we said, the final solution of the ukrainian question of the territory of poland is somewhat similar to what the germans wanted to do with the jewish question, but they did the holocaust, the poles had to do it, or the communist authorities wanted to build a monoethnic state, which live only one polish nation, it later turned out that the issue is not so obvious, because our or ukrainian expectations of ukrainians in poland regarding the fact that the vistula campaign and history in general are poles, ukrainians in poland to start telling, was accepted by the polish side as an insult to polish honor and dignity, and why not as a story about history,

but what is it that offends mr. miroslava, and explain why, because these are crimes of the commune. government, why suddenly modern polish politicians began to perceive it at this level? this is a rather difficult question, because in the polish mind, this is a model of perception of history, where the poles are heroes, and all the others are victims, i think, in ukrainian history we also have some such analogues, but in polish history it is this enough spread out that is, it was difficult to admit that poland, regardless of whether it was communist or non-communist, had committed such a crime or allowed such a crime, which is even more so if you look at those documents and the public perception of what was happening in the year 47 , then it must be said that the polish population, i would say, looked favorably on this process, that is, they approved of the fact that

there would be no more ukrainians in poland, and this was one of the achievements of the communist government in po yace. kuron believed that the vistula action spoke about what it is that the vistula action is such a family silver of the polish polish state, which it inherited after communism, so that it was good that this happened, and such and such an axiom essentially functioned in public perception, although polish historians have conducted very thorough studies of the very history, factography itself, also all those aspects of history. we have a number of polish historians who wrote very carefully about it and clearly condemned it, for us it was a case, we knew that the polish authorities. it's a little awkward to admit what happened because not everyone was aware of what could be the legal consequences of admitting that the polish state had committed

a crime against humanity against its own citizens, because such a legal qualification would have been attached to this crime if the crime was communist in poland there is another second category of crime , as a communist crime, then a crime committed by the polish authorities against the citizens of their own... state, who did not obey or were an opponent of the communist ideology, and we hoped that this would happen, although it was difficult from the institute of national remembrance to achieve a final decision, i want to remind you that the decision we are talking about here is not the decision of the polish prosecutor's office, but the decision of the prosecutor's office, that is , an element of the institution of national memory, well, it is quite difficult . and they, on behalf of the institute of national remembrance, discovered, admitted or clarified that they did not see the nature of the crime in what happened in

1947, which caused a gigantic storm in poland in the ukrainian community, and among polish researchers, polish experts, and i would told people who are a little more interested in polish-ukrainian relations, everyone admitted that this is a grenade thrown. on polish-ukrainian relations by the government, which is ending its own period of power, because it was a decision made on 20, essentially signed on november 24, made public on november 27 of last year, even when the minister of justice was zbigny zzobro, that is, the minister of justice of the previous government, and we remember the last months of the month, mr. myroslav 77. actually passes since the beginning of this operation, it was precisely april 28, why we are talking about this today, in 1947 they started this operation, almost 150,000 ukrainians

living in their ethnic lands suffered, became victims of this operation, is there any such analysis now to see a section of their descendants, maybe in percentage or approximately , how many of them assimilated? how many adapted to life in a new region, keeping their own way of life, habits, and declaring belonging to the ukrainian culture, and is it possible that there are also categories that still cannot be defined, that is, despite the fact that several generations have passed, and people do not fully understand who they are, almost 150 thousand have been resettled. people or as others say 153 00 people, because if you take into account that resettlement started in 1947 in april but essentially ended in 1950, that is

to count all these people who were resettled considering that they are or ukrainians, or sympathize with ukrainians, or have mixed origins, but in fact the main reason for their expulsion was their ukraine. now, what happened to them: the first period of stay on the island deportations, the communist authorities quite consistently carried out a policy of assimilation, that is, the destruction of all possible institutions that could preserve or help people preserve their identity. mr. myroslav, i apologize, we literally have a little more than a minute left, i would like to ask for more, to the point, so that we can understand, so we, we are talking in poland at that minute according to... according to the results of the 2011 population census , there was in poland, there are 32 people who declared that they are ukrainians, these are mainly people who

are the descendants of an activist, interestingly, in 1421 , 82,00 people submitted such and such an identity, that is, the number of people increased, some of these people are people who received polish citizenship, they are citizens of ukraine, but we see that in the last period there are, i would say a little ... the renaissance of life, the reflection of ukrainian consciousness in communities, this is also caused by the fact that ukraine today sees, or we see ukraine today , in a slightly different perspective, no longer as a state that is somewhere too far away, but as such a quiet hero of europe, and it begins to be an element which stimulates ukrainians in poland to become more connected or more connected to their identity, this does not always mean that they participate in... everything, all events or, say, in the institutional life of the public, or in religious public life, but they support, they

declare that they understand, they want. skirka was with us, the head of the association we have to interrupt this interesting conversation, myroslav ukrainians in poland and we say goodbye quickly, have a peaceful, safe day and stay with espresso! thinking about... a mattress, but here's what stops you. have you ever thought about what you sleep on? old mattresses accumulate not only dust, but also moisture that a person releases during sleep. a new mattress pad or bed linen can only improve the mattress aesthetically. choose a camel orthopedic mattress and your sleep will become noticeably better. take advantage of the super offer for half the price. call now and order a

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and to your attention the news release on the espresso tv channel. in the studio of iryna koval. greetings to all viewers. in the zaporizhzhia circus , two minor artists fell while performing an acrobatic act. they are a 15-year-old boy and a 12-year-old girl, the regional police said. the incident happened the day before. teenagers broke off from the three-meter.