well, they pressured from all sides, i.e. journalists, experts, then two months later the president of ukraine, volodymyr zelenskyi, speaks about it, everything is fine, i'm sorry, but those journalists, where are they, where are they, where are they going to stick theirs, these faces in that there were moments that they forbade, censored to go on the air themselves, but these very people who were wrong, they put on the air, carrying out. propaganda, you know, we are still, thank god that we united and did not miss this blow, because i am afraid that kyiv would have already been russian after this, the 22nd year of this temporary compromise, that is , you can show it all on your fingers, so there is no need, on the one hand, on the other hand, it is all hypothetical, let's turn the page from the point of view of these plans, from the point of view of working on mistakes ,

and as it is not necessary to negotiate, i think that this should still be kept in mind somewhere, because it is impossible to negotiate with russia in this way, you can fall into a trap, and what is happening now, again, well, actually negotiating the group has not changed, it is the same, the president did not change the decree, the same group is there, me i see that some of the members of this group go to various themselves. there is a world, well , in particular, oleksandr chaly was there to see india, that is, i don’t understand, this whole story continues in the same context, we have the same approach, how can we keep the same approach and at the same time now call for an invitation of ukraine in nato, the situation must be clarified somehow, i think the time has come to do something even with this decree, it

has, in my opinion, exhausted itself at this moment, because it is very strange that it remains, so whatever please, those who are involved in this, suggest to the president to stop this decree now, because he has already played his role. thank you, thank you, for your valid opinions and your rhetorical questions, including valery chaly, the ambassador of ukraine to the united states of america in 2015-2019 was with us. to my connection and we already have one more guest, this is igor semivolos, director of the center for middle eastern studies, mr. igor, good evening, good evening, congratulations, colleagues, congratulations, well, you know, there was a deadline for the last chinese warning, and now my impression is that there is a deadline for the last american warning to china, well , by and large the last chinese warning, and here we see the united states secretary of state in beijing is speaking quite harshly if the chinese do not create

real opportunities to end military-technical cooperation with by the russian federation, then washington himself will do it, a serious conversation, at the same time the defense ministers of the russian federation of the people's republic of china meet in the ustanny absolutely confidently press each other single-handedly, talking about a strategic partnership, talking about military ties between the two countries, there's not even a hint that xizen ping is going to listen to blinken, because i think we understand that... "if that's the case, it's obvious , that china would not go to the extent that, at the same time as the us secretary of state was in beijing, the minister of defense of china would shake shaig's hand in the vastan, well, at least two considerations, the first consideration is that the words have been said, now washington has to answer for them, i i think blinken is enough an important figure in the american hierarchy, which means. accordingly, we must now watch

our hands and understand what steps the united states of america can take in order to prevent such a development of events. i can of course imagine they'll say it didn't happen, or at least deny it, or at least drag it out, meaning the fact is also known and you can make a good mine out of a bad game, but...well, that would blow it, seriously will undermine american positions, europe is closely watching blinken's words, according to the americans, europe has its own interests in china, well , take the same macron, and therefore it is obvious that they cannot simply respond to these statements and these desires, yes washington. eh, this is the first, the second, the chinese, in

turn, also announced that if the united states of america crosses the red lines, then there will be ay-yy-yy, and this is... more like this 101 chinese warning, but again- after all, no one drew these red lines, no one knows the specific red lines and what they consist of, well, obviously they are already specific steps that will be directed against chinese banks, the chinese payment system or something like that, well, as an option you can consider, of course the strait of malacca, at one time the americans in the early 2000s. conducted such an experiment, when the strait of malacca could be blocked, and essentially all chinese exports stop in the china, south china sea. so, there may be a lot of debate around this, but the words have been said, i think now we have to watch

the actions of washington and beijing. i would like to you to talk about the next so-called stage of relations between russia and iran. a new level of relations, the official representatives of these two states said, talking about the actual deepening of military cooperation, what could it be and how does it threaten our state? well, first of all, of course, everyone is concerned about the delivery of planes, yes, that is, we understand that the story with the delivery of these planes dragged on for at least a year. rumor has it that one of the key reasons why the russians pulled from the posture. planes, although this arrangement was and it seems that the money was allocated for this, the fact is that there are agreements between russia and israel and, accordingly, this parity, which provides for the non-supply of offensive weapons,

su-35, of course, this is an offensive weapon, to iran, accordingly, israel does not support ukraine , if this story somehow... changes, we will also see in the near future, because now there is a lot of information on this topic, and the erans will definitely tell about it, that is , they will not keep it a secret, so accordingly they have the relationship between by israel and russia, should change, or maybe not, that is, in this case , they can refer to another agreement that the russians are closing. eyes on the passage of israeli planes into the territory of syria, that is , when they strike the positions of the iranians or the positions of hezbollah or other iranian corps groups on the territory of this country, that is, in this case, regarding the very

fact of deepening cooperation, well, it is obvious that this was also quite predicted, taking into account the fact that the rapprochement of... iran and russia is inevitable against the background of russia's war in ukraine and against the background of essentially a hybrid war between israel and iran. and in this case, it can be said for sure that there are only small things left in order for these two countries to conclude an appropriate pact that could mark the new year. relations, in principle, if we talk about these relations at the level of resistance to the west, we can say that there is such tripartite coordination at the level of iran, china and russia, because there are joint military exercises, but joint political coordination is at the level

tehran, beijing, moscow? i think it exists, and maybe it is not, well, not recorded, obviously, obviously, that is, so that we can already talk about a real propact. but coordination exists without a doubt, well, at least at the level of e-e, at the level of consultations, it can be definitely said that such consultations are taking place. what is happening now in the turkish-american third, recently rajebrdogan met with ismail haniyeh, the leader of hamas, it is absolutely such a demonstration meeting, i would say, and he did not go to the united states with tsingdogan, there is no official explanations for this, but they say that this is an attempt to oppose... at least from a public point of view, against the vote of the american congress on the allocation of aid to israel, we are here focused on aid to ukraine, but we understand that aid to israel is also a very important political factor . yes, without a doubt. i think that, well, at least that's how

the turkish press interprets his trip, in the arab press, that is, they emphasize that one of the key reasons is... the vote, the vote for aid to israel and the veto on palestine, on the creation of a state in... everything in the security council, that is, we can actually state that turkey is now de facto, if it took the side of those states that are currently fighting with israel, in this case, what is the place of turkey do you see for the next time, or is it just some kind of political demonstration? no, turkey is not fighting israel, that is an exaggeration. turkey is demonstrating its position, this position has remained the same for a long

time, essentially all the time, let's say the government netanyahu, or most of the netanyahu government, we have seen exactly this turkish position, but the deterioration of relations happened, you know, a long time ago, that is, back in the zero years, when the israelis... attacked a turkish ship, so there is nothing new here, yes, this is a position, the position is accepted by the majority of the turkish population, and actually erdogan is quite comfortable with this position, the fact that other partners, well, let's say there, are not ready to accept this position, erdogan does not avoid it, that is, he... in principle, he can normally demonstrate his independent,

the most independent position on this issue, since there is no clear and unambiguous position on palestine, including among nato countries and either among this war or among the west as a whole. but on the other hand, we see a situation where erdogan now has to justify himself to the more radical islamic public in turkey. for the fact that he, criticizing israel, does nothing economically to weaken it? yes, without a doubt, well, this is a politically internal political struggle, we know that this is a new party of bla blahodenstviya, which, in fact, is recruiting now points and gains votes, and in the first place bites off these votes because of the act against this, it is clear that they want to make their political capital on this. and that is why it is obvious that their policy, their strategy is to

raise this issue in society and criticize the current government precisely for turkey's unwillingness to directly influence this conflict in any way, and that is why i think that certain demonstrations of such and such a position on the part of not least under the influence of ertogan. the rise of these islamist radicals. two weeks today in fact, it has been since iran attacked israel. mr. igor, in your opinion, what is the further development of these events, is there a possibility of escalation in the near future, or will everything calm down and remain in the positions that are, as they are now. well, yes, we here can spend many dates calling there. three weeks of israel attacking the consulate, two weeks of iran attacking israel, one and a half weeks of

israel attacking iran and so on. so, now there is a certain strategic pause, because at least iran has to resolve the issue with its air defenses and aircraft, that is, it is absolutely necessary for him, and without this they are not ready to further escalate the situation, and, accordingly, to gather with their allies, as far as these allies are ready to go with him to the end, or at least to the logical conclusion of this conflict, it will be political, political support, whether it will be military support, or it will be some other, it is combined support, that is, for iran it is very important because they do not feel confident, including even in support russia and china, yes, on the one hand, without a doubt, political consultations took place. and it seems that they actively support iran in words, but we

understand that china has much more interests, and china invests, it is much more interesting for him to invest money in saudi arabia than the same iran, well, russia , accordingly, also has problems and a war on two fronts , in this case probably not exactly. the best option for russia, and making israel an enemy is also probably not a very good prospect for moscow, so everyone hesitates, and the iranians... the israelis too there are a lot of different opinions , there is a radical wing in the government, there are ultra-nationalists who demand an end, well, a victorious one, of course, an end to the war in

gaza, then the war in lebanon, then it will be iran's turn, there is netanyahu, who is... trying to hold back in power, which is being pressured by the ultra-orthodox and, accordingly, the ultra-right, well , there is a society that is a little removed from the shock of october 7 and is trying to ask some questions of the government, so there is also no clear , clear agenda, well, i am already silent about pressure from the united states of america, which gives arms with one hand. money, and squeezes with the other hand. thank you, mr. igor. ihor semivolos, director of the middle eastern studies center, was on our air. now we will break literally for a few minutes, but do not disconnect, we still have an interesting dialogue ahead of us. we hope join the ranks of the 100th separate mechanized brigade of the armed forces of ukraine. protect

yours. the result of their work is our safety. they, the boys from volyn, proved that everyone can be a warrior. the strong in spirit appreciate the ability to stand side by side with brothers until the holy victory. everyone who pilots uavs understands it, prepares, treats, repairs, rolls kilometers of roads, fills piles of documents, significantly strengthens those who cover the enemy with heavy fire and return meter by meter our native land. join the ranks of the 100th separate mechanized brigade of the armed forces of ukraine. let's stick together.

continuing the saturday political club and we 're back after a short break, we have 50 minutes to talk with vitaly portnikov, actually on some of the most important topics of the week. so, sir vitaly, we have already started talking, in principle, with valery chaly, regarding this agreement or agreements

that were published in the newspaper. anyway, i would like to discuss it with you and really understand what it was, it really was, conditionally speaking, some kind of draft project, yes, conditionally speaking, it was some kind of russian throw-in, and whether in principle such a thing was possible in 2002 year, and is it important, maybe in principle now? look, we have to discuss all these projects with you, to understand how russia generally views the former ones soviet republics, how it generally considers the negotiation process between them. russia considers the former soviet republics to be countries with conditional sovereignty, that is, in fact , the territories of russia itself, which for incomprehensible reasons withdrew from russia with the help

of the west, and which sooner or later must be returned back. by the way, i don't know if you watched this series, which was filmed by the anti-corruption fund about the 90s, so there are no chekists in this seminar series, who by and large believed that after the communist party of the soviet union ceased to exist , i apologize for going so far, they have to take over power in the country, and they , by and large, in the period from 1990. the first year to 2001, not only completely took over this power, but also consolidated it, but they never were going to rule only in the russian federation, because they always believed that this was the state security committee of the soviet union, of course these... situations, they believe that they should rule the entire state, the one that was ruled by the communist party of the soviet union, they feel deceived, they had such, such a wonderful

plan, to destroy the communist party apparatus, to come to power, to create a market economy in such a way that they could take all the money for themselves through their avatars, the so-called russian oligarchs, as a result, they only have part of the territory, and also... behind a part of the territory in europe, well, the territory with which it was possible to scare the europeans, make them look like, you know, round eyes, well , by and large, since 2001, notice this, they started a whole cascade of special operations in order to get all this to hand, chain mail, ugh, whatever the story is about the supply of ukrainian weapons to iraq, nothing... was ordered to finally isolate president kuchma, do you remember when even the president of the united states did not want to sit next to him at the table, yanukovych, in order to bring

his agent to the authorities in kyiv, in the fourth year, then in the 10th year, then in the 13th year to disrupt the association agreement, the annexation of crimea, well, we know all this, so what the idea might look like... well, whatever to say, agreements with such a country, it is very simple, you need to prepare such documents, which will lead to destabilization of the situation and will help get rid of the government that does not want to make the necessary compromises. remember how leonid kuchma's rule ended in 2004, when he signed an agreement on a common economic space. with russia, belarus, kazakhstan. in fact, ukraine already had one foot there. it was the final. why did lyanvit kuchmo sign this agreement? because there was a successful

special operation to isolate him in the west. he realized that he would not be able to conduct a pro-western course. yes, by the way, here i absolutely agree with you that the early kuchma is the late one kuchma, these are slightly different things. kuchma in the middle, and very late kuchma. yes, who left russia, went. maneuvered to the west, and then came to the kremlin again, but this is all thanks to special operations from lobyanka, if it were not for the 2004 maidan, i assure you, we would have been like belarus a long time ago. ok, that's just one illustration of the deal. now let's remember the minsk agreements. the minsk agreements were our last such moment of resistance to this attempt by russia to destroy our subjectivity, because in... the country did not sign these agreements, there the same kuchma signed them again, who did not held no positions, with official representatives of russia, there with the ambassador of russia, since

then there was this protocol with representatives of the occupied territories, but not a single ukrainian official, because it is obvious that president poroshenko was aware of all the consequences of signing with someone there zakharchenko and platnytsky, they did not sign all these documents, it is not as if it were a document about... regulation of relations in ukraine itself with people whose legitimacy ukraine does not recognize. but do you remember the destabilization of the situation after the minsk agreements? yes, in fact, then it was not just destabilization, then they tried to split ukrainian society. and let's remember these protest actions, there were a lot of different kinds of movements that spoke, yes, against, against the minsk agreements, and we must understand that this is also the case in principle. conditionally speaking, it could be provoked by russia itself, from within, from within the country, they did not even need to provoke anyone specifically, they

understood that the very fact would already create a certain instability in the ukrainian government, simply that then the political forces that were after maidan, they did not want to go to a tough confrontation, they simply saved the situation, by and large there could have been something already then that allowed it to advance further. now let's watch. then in 2019, zelensky meets putin in paris, what starts after that? kozak becomes the curator of this ukrainian direction, and kozak tries to drag our country into one trap after another. this, as it was called, the coordination council, with ordlo representatives, which was proposed by kozik and which yaermak agreed to, and this, by the way, is the only document official, where there is a signature of the representative. of the real ukrainian leadership with the representatives of these occupied territories, it happened once, but again there was such sharp resistance that the president's office realized that this was a diplomatic mistake and refused to continue

this process. and he did not leave, but if there was no resistance, or, let's say this, if the resistance was stronger, more serious, if the authorities did not abandon this idea of ​​theirs, tried to defend it, you know, and it would be a clinch, conflict with the patriotic part society, yes, they calmed down, no, they then proposed a military inspection of the ukrainian army with the so -called lpr corps, that is, as if you have an army and they have an army, and it almost... almost passed there at some stage simply because of that they refused, well , by the way, let's remember, including this so-called disarmament, which , by the way, was also offered to ukraine, and even there some things were allegedly implemented before that, not even allegedly, but in some areas they were implemented, and that too in principle there was one of these postulates, so to speak, which you are talking about , of course, now we are looking at the year 2022, the war

is already in... the russian army is already in the north, already in the east, they are advancing, but the ukrainian leadership continues to work and is perceived by the population as a legitimate one that protects the country from the enemy, what needs to be done in order for this to be successful, it is necessary to destroy the leadership and destroy mutual understanding between society and the government and between the government and the military, so we need some document that will help in this, there the entire document is so factual. drawn up so that later it would be possible to say, to see, they gave up ukrainian land, we defended it, blood was spilled, and they gave them crimea, gave it away, agreed that we would not have control over donbas, agreed that russian the language will be state, maybe they came to power specifically for this purpose, to revise all the property of the maidan, that is, they specifically did all this in order

to try to completely destabilize it. situation and in this way it is easier to get to kyiv, do you remember that in the first days of the war, putin turned to the ukrainian military and said, let's get rid of this government, we can come to an agreement much easier with you, that was part of this whole plan, it didn't work out, it didn't work out, and then they were the only , what could be done was to create certain information emissions in order to again and... destabilize the situation, and this is still not the end, but the chinese proposals are also part of this trap, but by the way, we will get to that later, that's all after all, here is a clarifying question, whether it was necessary then to lead even at the, perhaps not very official, level of negotiations with the russian federation, let's talk about those first two months. well, you

understand that if the russian federation was ready for negotiations, and they declared that they were ready to talk and meet, and the ukrainian side would say: "no, you know, we will not talk with them, no matter how it looks in the eyes our allies, who generally believe that any conflict should end with negotiations." after these negotiations took place, after on the west saw that the russians did not want anything constructive. the west could say to itself with a light heart: yes, we have entered into a long-term conflict, we have to... confront russia, we have to help ukraine, we have exhausted all possibilities of settlement, and if we had not exhausted them, what would our neighbors in europe, and the united states, listen, you were offered to negotiate, you didn't even listen to what they wanted, and you were in a good military position when they stretched the front there, they were ready there leave the north, and why didn't you talk to them, whatever we said, so we couldn't not talk, the question is

what to talk about and how to talk. you see, because if you agree to an outcome that makes you a small army there and doesn't give you any security guarantees, you know, demilitarization with neutral status, that's actually a recipe for death, and you remember that at the time an adviser to the president, the office of the president of ukraine, named oristovych, said that the war started in the first place because we have an article about nato in our constitution, but if we didn't have an article about nato, then of course no one would... attack us, because they did not pose any threat to the russian federation, and this was also a political course, which i understand, a huge part of society understood, that maybe we are insulting putin , maybe we somehow don't, we don't take into account his security concerns, so many in the west still say, you who serve russian political interests, and that somehow russia didn't attack finland, after finland...