therefore, before starting our big conversation, i suggest you watch the video of the consequences of another terrorist attack on kharkiv. in the morning , the occupiers hit three guided air bombs in the kyiv and holodohirskyi districts of the city, as a result of the strikes, unfortunately, one person died, nine more were injured, let's see.

26 years old, he was at his workplace. man, who is standing here. friends, we are working live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are currently watching us live there please subscribe to our pages, take part in our survey. today we ask you about the following: do you support the activities of a public broadcaster independent of the authorities. yes, no, please write your option in the comments under this video. if... you're watching us on

tv, we have phone lines you can call and voice your opinion. if you support the activity regardless of the power of the public broadcaster, well, relatively speaking, the tv channel is public and whether it is public. 0800 211381, no, 0800 211-382, all calls to these numbers are free, vote, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. and we have valentyn nalyvaichenko, people's deputy of ukraine, former head of the security service of ukraine, secretary of the verkhovna rada committee on ukraine's integration with the european union, in contact with us. mr. valentin, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. good evening, glory to ukraine. glory to heroes. mr. valentin, let's start our conversation with the issue of nato, because yesterday nato secretary general jens came to kyiv with an unannounced visit stoltenberg, and judging by the fact that... what

president zelenskyi said as a result of this visit: ukraine will not be able to become a member of the north atlantic alliance until the war against russia is won. let's listen to what the president of ukraine said. in my personal opinion, we will be in nato only when we win. i don't think that in time of war we will be taken into nato, this is... for some, the risk of nato members, for some, some people just have skepticism, because of this, the issue of nato, this issue, the secretary general said incorrectly, is the issue of the majority , and the majority is a question political, and for political ukraine to be included in the alliance, victory is needed for this. so, mr. valentin, as far as i understand...

ukraine has nothing to expect from the nato jubilee summit in july, or formally ukraine can receive this invitation, but this invitation will be delayed until our victory in the war with russia. i would immediately clarify a very important issue, that in fact ukraine's membership in nato and the main engine and locomotive of our membership are the armed forces of ukraine. time. second, every step that we are now taking together with the nato member countries is for nothing. our military specialists, the best, by the way, are also trained in other matters of cooperation, up to intelligence cooperation, and all this is the gradual integration of ukraine into nato and the north atlantic alliance. i'm talking like a professional, and that's why i want to shoot a little bit like this, you know, maybe someone was disappointed, or i warn you not to fall into a dilemma, because in fact others are too.

countries joined nato precisely in this way, step by step, bringing their military standards, weapons, intelligence and counterintelligence to compliance with nato standards. this is exactly what the armed forces of ukraine do only really during the war. and one more very important thing, how about integration into nato is the training of each combat unit, logistics centers that are currently operating on the territory of which, nato member countries, our neighbors, poland and other countries. and what do they work for? to provide a rhythmic and complete supply of everything that is and will be released by international partners. i was preparing for the jubilee summit of this year in july. nato in order to bring already from ukraine, i think, at the highest level, a concrete plan of action, how we use the weapons that we received from nato, how those units that learned and were trained in nato member countries, and can and will become the basis of our

integration into nato. i think that we will gain membership in nato through specific, military, not political, military steps. and by the way, one more argument, mr. sergey, during the war we were told, i actually work in the committee on integration with the european union, the secretary, everyone told us, well, what kind of integration in the eu, it is now impossible, look here bombing and so on then the whole committee worked day and night, both under bombardment and under sirens with european partners, and think about it, in two years and two months, ukraine received the status of a candidate for joining the european union, fulfilled the association agreement. and already this year, already this summer, we are starting negotiations on full-scale membership in the european union. these are unheard of rates and unheard of results for other countries. therefore, it is the same with nato. the only specificity, i emphasize and repeat, the engine and locomotive

of our integration is the armed forces of ukraine. but considering the condition in which the armed forces of ukraine are now, they are absolutely created. and is being created now according to nato standards , and separate battalions have been created for a long time, like the same azov battalion, for a long time, or a regiment already now, they were created according to nato standards and according to all these patterns that exist in other armies of the world, if we take the current ones , the current condition of the armed forces of ukraine and their capabilities, we can be a large part of this large community, where most armies have. there was no such experience, i wanted to say na luck, or maybe there was no such experience, and we could teach many there, including, indeed, combat potential, combat experience, and most importantly, what do you call the combat condition

of the armed forces of ukraine, our units, well , it is clear that in order higher than in other countries, including nato member countries, what we lack, let's be more specific, including in order to become a full member of... us nato, combat aviation in the sky, additional air defense systems, satellite and other communications protected by nato standards, a the main thing is that every fighter has it, in a helmet, you know, a helmet that protects the life of our defender, but even there you need communication and a lot of other information, which on the battlefield makes it possible to fight effectively according to nato standards, and all this each of our defenders, each unit should receive, that's what we're working on. but i emphasize once again who we work with, we work precisely with nato member countries, that is, in essence, as a candidate country for joining nato, as well as with the european union, only in peaceful spheres, i emphasize that this is the most important thing, and for military specialists, for our

general staff, well, it's not a secret either, well , they already work with nato advisers and directly with the commanders of the armed forces of nato member countries, and with the commander, by the way, of the joint... forces of the north atlantic of the alliance, these are already such, you know, not strings, these are already such serious binding processes that not only attract and involve us, ukraine, and our armed forces, but gradually make part of nato part of the defense potential of united europe. special assistant to the president thomas reid of the united states of america says that ukraine will not be accepted into nato either now or in the next few years. this is definitely a difficult aspect, because ukraine is now in the midst of a great war, we can take steps that will improve its defense and security here and now and in the next

few years, so that when that moment comes, when it joins, it will be in a stronger position position mr. valentine, anyway, let's get back to the summit. july nato, can the north atlantic alliance give a clear signal, first of all to putin about the fact that ukraine will be in nato, and maybe, maybe, this... entry, although it will be delayed in time, but the actions of moscow will depend on this signal and the actions of the whole world will depend on it, that is how it should be and will be a signal, remember my words at the anniversary summit in washington, it will be 75 years of nato, but it will not be just a signal, we are up to it, we are currently working with our nato partners. in any case , i am one of those deputies of the verkhovna rada who work in this direction, we are working to ensure that not

only the signal is sounded in july, but that all those achievements that, thanks to the armed forces of ukraine and our defenders, ukraine already has with nato, with each member country of 32 countries, even the last ones who joined, the swedes and sweden, well, we from sweden literally a week ago met the government delegation and from analytical centers that precisely... serve their defense and security sector, every country is a member of nato, it is already our partner, and in the military sphere, before that finland became the 31st member of nato, with finland, remember, there was a president, literally a month ago, was the head of the verkhovna rada council, i participated in these negotiations with the highest leadership of finland, they also handed over 23 packages of defense aid according to nato standards, correctly to ukraine, to the armed forces of ukraine. sergey, that is why i emphasize... so that our tv viewers, dear ones, understand that this is integration into nato, because replacing

parquet summits, champagne and everything else, this, by the way, is not integration into nato, integration into nato - this is combat capability, weapons and armed forces, we also have armed forces, then we really need combat capability and weapons more, and we are working on this both within the framework of ramstein and at the bilateral level, and the key partners for us remain the member states. mr. valentin, yesterday kharkiv was hit by a north korean-made ballistic missile, and there is already evidence of this from the un monitors and sanctions against north korea, and they confirmed that kharkiv was hit by north korean-made missiles, which is a direct violation of the sanctions of the security council, so... who and how should the sanctioned state, because north korea

and so there is a state subject to sanctions, in what way can they still be brought to their senses, apart from the sanctions that are already in place, that is, what should the world do about north korea, well, this should be an example for iran and china, here so much an example, mr. sergey, how much the position of china, which should also join and really, is needed. to implement all international sanctions imposed on north korea, first of all to introduce and control that no military and other goods are supplied to north korea by sea, as well as by rail the equipment that north korea is actually using to make these crippled missiles, but unfortunately they are killing people, and even more unfortunate that russia, a terrorist country , is taking it from north korea and sending it terroristically at the heads of the people of kharkiv. odessans and essentially throughout our country, i think that it is china and its position, but now we

are waiting for very important negotiations and the visit of chinese leader sandenping to france and other european countries, so that after all china joins these sanctions , i believe it will stop, anyway will limit russia's ability to supply components for north korea to make these terrorist weapons of its own. missiles, again, for russia, waging war against us and killing our civilians. mr. valentin, you have already asked about this visit, the planned visit of sidzenpin to france, there will also be an anniversary meeting, or an anniversary date, of 60 years of diplomatic relations between china and france. the day before, president macron said that he is ready to discuss the possibility of involving french nuclear weapons to create a defense system. europe from russia and probably for sure, they will

talk about it with xijin pinyem, because china actively participates in all negotiations related to nuclear weapons, china is a nuclear power. what does macron say? he says in an interview with mediagroup ebra: "i am in favor of opening this debate, which should include anti-missile defense, means of long-range fire, nuclear weapons for those who have them, or who have..." american nuclear weapons on our territory, let's put everything on the table and see what really protects us in a reliable way, at the same time macron recalled that french military doctrine provides that... france can use nuclear weapons if its vital interests are threatened. what, mr. valentine, does this statement by macron mean? macron is constantly now trying to stay ahead of all european leaders and demonstrate his ability to lead europe forward. what does this declaration of nuclear weapons mean for the creation of a system to protect europe

against russia? this means that the french president is indeed in a strong position now. first, second, france is a nuclear power, third, france is one of the largest economic and military powers of both the european union and nato. and now that i'm actually at a high level with my french colleagues, i've been talking about what they really want to discuss behind closed doors during xi jinping's visit to paris. first and foremost, putin has already got everyone, as well as his henchmen with their nuclear weapons. well, the whole world. and china also warned: do not transfer nuclear weapons to belarus, what did russia and the kremlin do? they handed over nuclear missiles, well, the truth is their own control, but nevertheless , russian nuclear weapons spread on the territory of belarus, therefore, even behind closed doors, the french president will clearly say to the chinese leader that look, you influence, you call the aggressor country and its

leadership a partner, friend, but they and he nuclear simply transfers the weapon. and er, and to whom, to the belarusian regime, and for what, who is threatening belarus? no country threatens, on the contrary, belarus is a co-aggressor against ukraine, against us. so france and the french leadership are very strict is going to hold the line and indeed, is conducting negotiations, has already held with germany. after, i think, the visits of the chinese leader, there will be negotiations with the united states of america, in order to enter into collective anti-missile defense. and anti-nuclear shield for all member states of the european union. france can add a nuclear triad here. the triad is submarines, airborne, french air force and land-based missiles. so far , this is exactly what the leader of france, and the leader of germany and other european countries are talking about, and exactly about

president macron spoke of these plans when he indicated that it was necessary to put them in place. table and look at all this. thank you, mr. valentin, for the conversation, it was people's deputy of ukraine, former head of the security service of ukraine valentina nalyvaichenko. friends, we work live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms. for those who are now watching us live there. please join our platforms and also take part in our survey. today we ask you about this, do you support activities of an independent public broadcaster. yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube if you have. your position on public broadcasting in ukraine, please write in the comments below this video. if you're watching us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote. if you support the activities of an independent public service broadcaster. 0800 211-381, no, 0800 211-382. all calls to these numbers are free. next,

we will be in touch with mykhailo samus, military expert, director of new geopolitics research network. mr. mykhailo, i congratulate you, thank you for joining our broadcast. i congratulate you. well, first of all, mr. mykhailo, let's talk about the situation that is developing around the time gap, because this is the city that the russians are now trying to enter, as our leaders of the armed forces of ukraine and the state have repeatedly said, that by may 9 or may 7 , when the so-called inauguration of the so-called president putin will take place, that the russians want to enter this city. the spokesman of the operational-strategic group of troops, khortytsia, nazar voloshyn, told to our broadcast that the russians continue to put pressure on the ivars, for this the occupiers do not spare either personnel or equipment. however, there is no enemy army in the city yet, the defense forces control the situation.

let's listen to what nazar voloshyn said. for for his admiration for. i'm talking about chasivyar, the russian army is trying to bypass it on the flanks through bohdanivka and ivanovske, there they are trying to storm these villages in order to take, let's say, chasivyar, but they are unable to do this, the enemy is conducting assaults, these are mobile fire groups, which you may have already seen on video, on the internet, many such videos, on golf carts, motorcycles, cross-country motorcycles, assault actions continue around the clock, but in... nothing succeeds there, mr. mykhailo, so far that the enemy is not succeeding, but obviously he is striving for it, how do you assess the situation that is currently developing around the temporal ravine, and what gives... the russians the capture of this city, well, actually , the russians are attacking not only in the direction of the temporal ravine, they are trying to act on several directions at the same time, we have already several times

spoke in and in the programs, and analyzing the situation, the fact that, in principle, the russians will try to use may as efficiently as possible, because they understand that the window of opportunity is closing, and ukraine will have more opportunities, primarily more ammunition, more possibility of using artillery fire in order to prevent a breakthrough at various angles, but now, while ukraine mainly uses fpv drones, they are trying to use, including their so-called cleverness, to improve armored vehicles so that precisely with fpv drones it is not possible to ... destroy their means of delivery, let's say, personnel to the assault areas, and

since there is a limited amount of artillery, since there is a limited amount of anti-tank weapons, the russians are trying to use this very moment , as only ukraine, the armed forces of ukraine will have enough artillery ammunition, enough anti-tank weapons and plus also fivi-drones, i ... think that this will be the end of their offensive, but again, that's all depends on the pace of delivery of the promised aid, because president bayten signed the decision, now the bureaucracy is involved, logistics are involved, and here we understand that there may be a certain time lag, which russia is trying to use, and i emphasize, not only in the rush of time. after the official announcement by washington of the decision to provide long-range ataka missiles to ukraine. berlin continues to refuse the supply of taurus missiles and, as polish foreign minister radislaw

sikorski says in an interview with a group of german publications, washington's transfer of atakams missiles to ukraine should persuade berlin to transfer taurus missiles to kyiv. let's hear what radislav sikovsky said. i hope that the events of the last few days... will have a positive effect on the chancellor, and in particular, the us providing ukraine with long-range missiles, famous for attacks with a range of 300 km, and i hope that the chancellor understands that this is in response to a sharp escalation by of russia well, mr. mikhail, what can you say about this intransigence or fear of germany, so that their rockets fly. towards the temporarily occupied territories of russia, i i understand that this is the biggest problem and the biggest, biggest fear of scholz, that these

missiles will fly to crimea, and then russia will accuse germany of entering the war on the side of ukraine, and accordingly expect some kind of answer from putin. no longer blamed germany. is one of our biggest friends and partners in terms of aid, and i would like to draw your attention to the fact that germany just now still found the opportunity to hand over the first patriot, the first battery complex to us, when ukraine, president zelenskyi began to speak about seven patriots, which we need as a minimum in order to stop these attacks on ukrainian infrastructure, civil, energy. these are for other military and civilian objects, and germany is precisely the leader of this process, so in principle, if germany leads the anti-missile and anti-aircraft

coalition, i think that this is a fairly effective use of those funds, large funds, by the way, there are about 7 billions of dollars germany promised to spend on ukrainian aid this year, it is also quite effective. regarding taurus, there are several points, besides in the principle of psychological and political complexes of the chancellor himself, there are a few more technical points, that is, specialists claim that the taurus, unlike stormshadow and scalp, is not so easy to adapt to soviet aircraft, that is, this process is difficult, expensive and long, that is , of course, if a year ago it could have been started, then now in any case we would have these missiles in our arsenal, but once you get out... so that germany still does not want to do it, i think that if it concentrates on anti-missile aid, this will be good, but if indeed the united

states... again, we are now talking more about what is published in the press, we do not know for sure whether, for example, the united states will give us enough, atakams exactly 300 km. i would say that ballistic missiles are a pretty good addition to those missiles that we have the shadow sculptor, plus ukrainian neptunes, it would be possible to create a complex threat to, for example, a group of russian forces of occupation. them in the occupied crimea, and this would have its effect from the point of view precisely the preparation of operations for the deoccupation of crimea, even without the tauros, that is, after all, resources are limited, and now it is necessary to provide as efficiently as possible, as quickly as possible help, that is , if the atakams can be quickly delivered to ukraine, i would still bet on the atakams, plus tom shadow and scalp, since they are already adapted to our aircraft, then

germany after all... which concentrates on patriot, on iriste, and possibly other systems, including, for example, short -range, because we are constantly talking about yes, medium-range systems, we mean the patriot iriste, but those systems that could help us fight against russian drones, and not only strike drones, but also reconnaissance ones, which now pose a huge threat, because they fly over other... depth and 100 or more kilometers behind the front line, they also create problems in the front-line areas, in odessa and so on, they are the ones who conduct reconnaissance and conduct strikes with iskanders, strikes with daggers and other means, air-based cruise missiles, and this is a huge problem, and you may have seen how i50, how 55 is used, but from the point of view of more

effective anti-aircraft on... anti-missile shield we need, including, for example, german anti-aircraft means already short range, it would be good. mr. mykhailo, but well, taking into account the fact that, after all, our western partners give us help, regularly, but not enough to create parity of forces on the russian-ukrainian front, what and how can this parity create what now ... what our western partners have done so far do not add, and are they able to give enough weapons to ukraine in order to equalize, that is , the parity that i am talking about at the front, when the ukrainians will not look weaker in terms of weapons, it is clear that the motivation of the ukrainian troops is much higher than that of the russians, but

there is still not a lot of weapons, what is lacking, so... western partners do not dare to give them to ukraine yet, and we really need them? well, in principle, politically, in fact, almost all systems are already allowed, but precisely because the united states did not give, did not approve for six months decision, they were engaged in their political processes, there was a gap, a rather powerful gap in ammunition, and in artillery, and not only in atakams, but in any long-range means. anti-tank means, i.e. , in principle, we have lost quite a lot of elements, and it is too early to talk about parity now, that is, i would say, first, it is ammunition, i.e., the basic element is artillery, ukrainian artillery must carry out russian infantry and artillery to a depth sufficient for so that the russians could not even plan their assaults, offensives and so on then, of course, this cannot be done now,

the main means remain: the means of countering assaults, the russian assault remains fdroprons, this is clearly not enough, we do not need to leave, if we could reach parity with russia in artillery, it would already be a huge relief for the ukrainian troops , well, we are talking about the same fresh atakamsya and f-16, of course, which were supposed to neutralize the russian dominance in the air, but if we have these three elements, well, and a plus, of course, we could say: anti-tank means to really already to guarantee the destruction of any armored vehicles that appear in the field of view of ukrainian soldiers, it would be generally good, now in all the mentioned areas we are very far from parity, we have a huge deficit, i hope that the decision is political after all adoption of the decision by the united states, it gave the necessary impetus, but even at the meeting with the general.