hello, yes, olasya, hello, good evening, svitlana anatolyivna, good, my name is olesya, i am a journalist, i have one question for you, tell me why you organized the removal of ukrainian children to the territory of russia, you see, the question is incorrect. you can ask a more correct question, why and which children, i did not organize anything, i am not authorized to do such an organization, look, for example, the group of the 31st child, in which philip was the leader, the group of the 31st child, in which philip was the main thing is to make a request and we will help you we will answer everything officially, the children were handed over to ukraine only to legal representatives and parents, we did not take them anywhere to ukraine.

no, no, i am asking you about the territory of russia, specifically ukrainian children, the territory of russia, on the territory of russia? yes yes. make an official request, we will give you all the information. but wait. yes, yes, i hear you. well, i know what you suggested at the hospital. we found out that... from the list, all of them were under the care of russian families, all of them residents of the moscow region. we found that the children were mostly given to families who already had them foster children according to russian media , bohdan yermokhin, a boy from mariupol, got into a family at the age of 11. children, his adoptive mother

iryna rudnytska is a former volunteer of the chechen war. after several months , bohdan tried to escape from rudnytska's family to his relatives in ukraine. he was detained at the belarusian border and returned to russia. those children who returned and we managed to interrogate them, we can say for sure that the children were brought up in the spirit of love for the russian world, they were told that ukraine as a state was destroyed. we carried out military-patriotic education, they were given weapons, not from this group, but we know that there were cases when children were physically abused. during more than a year of the war, the ukrainian authorities were able to identify almost 20,000 children who were deported by the russians to their territory. as of the beginning of 2023, most of them were from the donetsk region. since the beginning of the full-scale war, volunteers and the ukrainian authorities have returned about 400

children. the real number of deportees is probably much higher. russia does not transfer to ukraine lists of children they deported. thousands, thousands of children who were abducted, snatched from life. for those separated from their relatives and illegally deported to the territory of russia. we don't know the exact number, it's true, unfortunately, and so far, how many of our children there are, but we know, we know that we have to return all of them, we know that we have to restore the rights and safety of all our ukrainian children. the international criminal court issued arrest warrants for putin and lviv and bilov. they are suspected

of deporting children to the territory of russia. ukraine can demand their arrest if they cross the border with countries that recognize the decision of the international criminal court. ukraine retains certain rights over these children as a state-citizenship. therefore , the option that these children were deported to the territory of the russian federation, and they remain there in the territory of the russian federation forever, simply does not exist. gender does not exist in international humanitarian law. which allows the occupying power to take children, take them out and leave them permanently.

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and just for people who appreciate a non-committed view of football, football format, every monday at 22:00 on the espresso tv channel. big. vasyl winter's broadcast, two hours of air time, two hours of your time, two hours to learn about the war and what the world is like, two hours to keep up with economic news and sports news, two hours in the company of favorite presenters, presenters that many became like relatives, as well as honored guests of the studio, events of the day in two hours, vasyl zima's big broadcast, a project for smart and caring people, in the evening at espresso. taking the wounded from the battlefield in time means saving his life. bc pick-up, boys' pick-up, atv - this is the way from zero to our life. at this stage of the war,

an atv is the best solution for evacuating wounded soldiers. we invite everyone to join us in collecting from zero to life on atvs for the 93rd brigade kholodny yar in the direction. you left your home, fathers, mothers, and devoted yourself entirely to one great cause, good for you. honor and the duty to win freedom for ukraine. may the lord god bless the holy work. christ is risen. ukraine will rise. greetings, friends. vitaly portnikov is with you. our interlocutor is oleksandra matviychuk, human rights defender, head of the organization center for civil liberties , which was awarded the nobel peace prize, and laureate of the vasyl stus prize. greetings, ladies, good evening. let us start with

the report of the state department of the united states, which is dedicated precisely to human rights in ukraine, there are a lot of serious remarks on addressed to russia, which could have been foreseen, but there are also remarks addressed to ukraine, but it seems to me that these remarks need to be analyzed, which is the most important thing there, how should we do this, if you want to work on mistakes, because this is just a statement facts obviously, and we have to do this work on mistakes, understanding the context. we are trapped between two logics, the logic of war and the logic of democratization, and it is difficult to balance between these logics, so the facts presented in the report should not be viewed as just criticism as something that needs to be fixed. for example, considerable attention is devoted to the topic of freedom of speech, and it is clear that freedom of speech is not absolute. right, it can be limited in time of war for security reasons, but it can only be limited

proportionately. and when at the beginning of the full-scale invasion, for example, a number of tv channels were turned off the air and deprived of broadcasting rights, our human rights organizations, the center for civil freedom, the kharkiv right-wing group, and a number of others made a statement that this was disproportionate interference with freedom of speech. therefore, it is not surprising that in this report there is criticism of the telethon, because the decision that was adopted in the 22nd year and could be relevant in that context, well, with the change of context in the 24th year, needs to be revised. well , here it is very important to understand, you know, where decisions are really made, which are justified by the needs of the war, which can also be right, which can be wrong. and where is the solution, where war is used to strengthen the monopoly of power, how to tell the difference? and that

differs not in that we get into the heads of the executors or adopters of these decisions, which is impossible to do, we conduct a test, for example, when we talk about freedom of speech, there is a three-step test that is used in practice, for example, the european court of human rights, he talks about three components, whether there is a legitimate goal, and here they will say, yes, it is... war is a security consideration, are these limitations of the protection of this goal achieved and the last, extremely important and component of this text, are these limitations necessary in a democratic society, and here quite often this is proportionality, which is how the state can pull a blanket over itself, but no more than necessary, even in war conditions, it just fails, here it is very important to realize at... how much in principle we are now already the situation, if you will, of selective law,

and how society perceives it, because by and large we talked about it even before the war, that of course the state can adopt some measures, very often those that do not correspond to the current legislation, the constitution, against people who are not us like, obviously, and it's a very dangerous thing, and i always remind you as a law enforcement officer that even... those people who support it, saying it's a war and we have to use whatever methods, they think they're using these methods against those they call enemies, they do not understand that if you break the rules of the game, then tomorrow these methods will be used against you, so the question arises, how to explain this to a society that is already traumatized by this long war and the realization that, relatively speaking, the dictatorship that is opposite is it very often it happens precisely because she does not care about any right, and she can change the law, change the constitution, do everything that

will be replaced, i would say, patience is necessary, but here i will also add, some, probably, a lot of love for people who will come to you in the comments, who will find you in social networks and start writing to you that you are not in the trenches, that you are a human rights activist, that you are wearing your rose-colored glasses, and that 's the softest thing in fact, i read when i wrote about such violations. which look to me, even during the war, disproportionate and threatening, well, on the other hand, the incidence is understandable, but there is another side. on the medal, which creates such obvious problems for human rights activities, is that the very logic of war, it somehow calls into question our usual norms by which we treat human rights, and here, even if we are not talking about russian - the ukrainian war, and more broadly, we see how human rights organizations are now

condemning the israeli army, israeli security forces for actions in the gas sector, demonstrations to... sermons, demands not to give military support coming from the united states, i can just quote senator bernie sanders saying, "no, we're not against the state of israel, we're not anti-semitic, we're just saying that you're violating human rights, but at the same time, there is a need to destroy terrorism there, to fight against terrorist organizations there, and the very activity of the power structures when they do this, and this also applies to us, when we..." operate, say, there in the de-occupied territories and fight with the occupied territories, she actually undermines the usual us human rights, and what to do with it? it is difficult to speak in broad strokes here, because the approach of human rights protection requires analysis of each specific case, that is, each specific case, to the extent that

both international human rights law and international humanitarian law come into force during the war. it is not right to what extent these two branches, superimposed on this specific example, on this specific context, say there that the actions of this or that state correspond to these norms or not , because unfortunately, during the war people die, civilians die, uh, and this proportionality, it, we just talked about freedom of speech, it is also present here, and it protects the civilian population, and it establishes norms. the rules of waging war and protecting one's legitimate interests, therefore one must go into each case, and not try to dissect it with broad strokes, although i, on the other hand, say this and catch myself thinking that when i talk about the russian federation, i am just using broad strokes , but we have factual confirmation for these broad strokes, we have public ones

organizations have a database in which we have documented 70,000 episodes of war crimes in just two years. throughout the territory of ukraine, and i can definitely say, using these facts, in broad strokes, that it is a conscious policy of the russian state to use war crimes, that these are not some excesses of specific actors or some army unit, that this is a method by which russia is trying to win this war by inflicting pain on civilians and breaking their resistance. well , russia itself, when you talk to your foreign colleagues, you don't think that she went... on this palestinian path, relatively speaking, when she replaces the aggressor and the victims, says that ukraine is committing crimes against the civilian population there, the ukrainian army is being conducted in this way and that way, and we see how the suffering of the people in belgorodsk is shown there oblast, as if it was just by chance that they got into this situation,

because ukraine wants to destroy the peaceful territory of russia there, as was the case with donbas before. yes, with this meme, what did you do for 8 years, when ukraine bombed donbas, it is not only in russia itself sounded, it was always discussed in the right-wing environment as well. i just came back from a very long trip to the united states of america, and i saw how widespread the narrative is that ukraine is persecuting christians, that's a good example, and to be honest, that statement by meijer was not accidental, it was not accidental, and unfortunately, she... not only she thinks so, many are convinced that ukraine persecutes christians, and you know, there is a special cynicism in that, because we have been documenting war crimes for 10 years, of course, a full-scale war is a completely different size, intensity, but the trend has been clear since 2014, russia

considers freedom of religion an exclusive collective category, there should be only one church or loyal churches, for example, this is the transformation and taking control of the muftiate on the crimean peninsula, and all other churches , denominations, religious organizations, both their leadership and their believers, they are being persecuted, and that's all that we recorded, during these 10 years, i heard all this, as if ukraine is doing it, kidnapping, killing, and torturing priests on occupied territories, and i, when i... heard this, i simply told about these cases that i personally documented, for example, i said that the protestant pastor oleksandr khomchenko told me, i mentioned about the kidnapping of the mass. therefore, stepan podolchak from the village of kalanchak, kherson region, but frankly speaking, i really think about what to do with this, because our votes, they are single, and russia

used a powerful machine, hired lobbyists, in the same washington, they bypassed all the congressmen and told how ukraine persecutes, and what is meant by ukrainian the orthodox church of the moscow patriarchate , first of all, as an organization that is being persecuted, it is meant that... when you speak as an average american, they do not make a distinction, for them they are christians, and they do not know whether it is the moscow church or some other, and about these christians being persecuted by russia, and how they package it for specific congressmen, that is a question to which i do not know the answer, well, in the united states there is an american orthodox church, which is recognized by the russian orthodox church as autocephalous, the truth is that no one else recognizes it, practically in world orthodoxy, but this is a whole organization, which again, its representatives can go to congressmen, to representatives of local legislative bodies,

talk about all these sufferings, this is a whole church, but the situation, the situation is more complicated , even the evangelical churches that are being persecuted by russia in the occupied territories, they believe that ukraine is persecuting christians, and something must be done about it, because this is the narrative that is being actively promoted and... is used, including, not to give ukraine the support we expect from the united states of america. and in general, how do you feel that public opinion has changed during this time? i felt that people, and this is quite typical and natural, are already thinking about other things than the russian war in ukraine. and i felt, and it was, by the way, a surprise for me, because i was on such an invitational tour. seven american universities, that is, in different parts of the country, that we still have a huge reserve of empathy, because wherever i spoke, it was always a very warm welcome,

people responded to what i was telling, well , actually human pain, it has no borders, these are very understandable stories, and i came to the conclusion that if someone in america constantly had a focus on this, then it would be much easier for us, because people, they are not without... strength, they are just busy with a thousand other things that are happening in the world at the same time. how in principle, what do we have to do to maintain this interest, primarily in the united states, but in european countries, because, well, what you say, empathy is understandable, but the level interest, it is also very important, we see it in the columns of the world media, the middle east has been in the center of events for 200 days in a row, and it is a strategic region for the united states. this is not the only part of the world where a tragedy is taking place, where people are suffering, that is, there is a lot going on in syria, which also appeared in

the world press, in sudan, in iran, well, that is, there are various points that needed respect, and our the question is how to ensure our interests despite this change of focus, because it is difficult to fight with such a powerful military force, as russia without borders. public assistance, and if the west tells us that you are fighting not only for yourself, then, accordingly, we would like it to be confirmed not just with words, but with concrete actions. therefore, i have a simple answer to your difficult question: it seems to me that if russia enters the stage of a long, exhausting war, then we should move to a long-term strategy, we need to build communities in these countries, and this is what we have. to start, we have 7.5 or i don't know how many million ukrainians now refugees, we have a super-active diaspora that became more active after the 22nd year, we have

caring artistic circles and right-wing circles, we need to expand these communities so that they are not purely ukrainians or people of ukrainian origin, and constantly involve these people in some actions . that is, we need to start work on building such an international network, if russia builds on money, on propaganda, on some corrupt connections or on political influence, then we need to build it on values ​​and on such very basic things like human solidarity and empathy and a sense of personal responsibility for everything that happens in the world. after this story, with the termination of consular services, military servicemen faced. won't there be cracks in the diaspora itself? it is obvious that they will go, it seems to me that, in general, this question of mobilization is very complicated, and...

different parts of ukrainian society have different interests in this regard, and here the ukrainian state looks like this to me from the outside, it takes mutually contradictory steps, on the one hand, it seems to emasculate this one the draft law, not before and not, and these norms, which were demanded by the part of society that is fighting against this law, are disappearing, on the other hand , it is a completely different signal that here we are now... we will take care of those ukrainians who are abroad, maybe this is a struggle not for mobilization for justice, it's just a different, different , different struggle, well, in any case, it should have some real mechanisms of implementation, and it looks like these are different mutually contradictory signals, and it 's difficult for me to understand what our state policy is regarding mobilization, again i not a military expert, i can only look at it from a human rights point of view, but going back to your question, it seems to me

that despite all this, a huge number of people abroad understand that this is a war for survival and feel a responsibility to ensure that their the state survived, even when they are safe abroad, they do something, i meet such people in every state who tell me how many charity actions they have done, how they themselves transported something, how they conduct some informational work, these people should become. more, not less, which means they have to campaign to get other people involved in this work, and not just rely solely on themselves. we have already used the word survival several times in our conversation, and here is an important point that we had the impression, at least after the maidan of 2013-14, that from this civilization of survival, which was on the territory of ukraine, we can say,

the entire 20 20, 20th century. we pass to such values ​​of the civilized world as there are a completely different attitude to human life is required for solidarity, for mutual understanding, for respect for the state and for the respect of the state for the person, and now we have again, it is logical, after the beginning of this great war , moved to the value of survival, as far as it affects human rights in general and in the perspective of the general perception of human rights as a value by the citizens themselves, this is very ... beginning, because war is poison, war is poison not only for ukrainian society, for any society, in my time, studying in tenfer university, specifically took a course on wars and on international settlement, in order to understand these patterns and be ready for what awaits us, both during the war and after the war ends, however it ends, and quite hard to hold this

framework of freedom and democracy, human rights, when survival instincts come to the fore, and this is understandable, this is not some kind of fault, this is simply a context in which a responsible person must rely even more on self-reflection, and simply every day, accepting a thousand decisions remember what we are fighting for. it is difficult, but what gives me optimism is that when you open any research for all these years regarding ukrainians and values, ukrainians always put freedom in the first place in the hierarchy of values. and the perception of freedom, it generally implies a duty, but right here it is important to understand whether freedom is a tool for building a civilized country,

or freedom is an element for... an anarchic perception of oneself and the state and oneself in the state, this is very correct question, because freedom and will, you know, it's obvious, and different categories, it's the same as someone told me that we were all on the maidan, but everyone stood on the maidan for their own, well, that is, for their own idea, and eh, it's true, it's true, needs an even deeper study, because if for me freedom is the opportunity to take responsibility for my actions, that is, it is for... for me, responsibility and freedom are equivalent concepts, that is, i do not transfer responsibility for my life to someone else, i myself able, i have the freedom to take responsibility for it, then for someone's freedom, i, for example, is often used to explain the problems that are already happening in western society, i say, it is the ability to choose between different cheeses in the supermarket, this is freedom, freedom of choice, i just went to the supermarket, chose...