we are transitioning to such values ​​of the civilized world, which require a completely different attitude to human life, to solidarity, to mutual understanding, to respect for the state and for the state's respect for the person, and now we have again, it is logical, after the beginning of this great war, moved to the value of survival, as far as it affects human rights in general and the perspective of the general perception of the government by the citizens themselves. this affects a lot, because war is poison, war is poison not only for ukrainian society, for any society, at one time, while studying at tenfer university, i specially took a course on wars and on international settlement in order to understand these patterns and be ready for what awaits us, both during the war and after it, how the war ends, however it ends. and it is quite difficult to maintain

this framework of freedom and democracy, human rights, when survival instincts come to the fore, and this is understandable, this is not some kind of fault, it is simply a context in which a responsible person has even more to rely on self-reflection, and just every day, with a thousand decisions, to remember what we're fighting for, it's difficult, but what makes me optimistic is that when you open any research over all these years with regard to ukrainians and values, in the hierarchy of values, ukrainians always put freedom in the first place, the perception of freedom generally implies a duty, but right here it is important to understand that freedom is a tool for building a civilized society. is

freedom as an element for the anarchic the perception of oneself and the state and oneself in the state is a very correct question, because freedom and will, you know, it is so obvious, and different categories, it is the same as someone told me that we were all on the maidan, but everyone stood on the maidan for their own , that is, for my own idea, and it's true, it's true, it needs an even deeper study, because for me freedom is the opportunity to take responsibility. for my actions, that is, for me, responsibility and freedom are equivalent concepts, that is, i do not transfer responsibility for my life to someone else, i myself am able, i have the freedom to take responsibility for it, then for someone, freedom, for example, is often used to explain to western societies the problems that are already happening in them, i say, it is the opportunity to choose between different cheeses in supermarket, this is freedom, freedom of choice, i just went to the supermarket, chose... different cheeses, i am a free person,

i can choose cheeses for myself, and this is how i see it, well , this is how freedom was perceived in soviet society, there were not several types of cheese, and those who have access to products, obviously, and now western societies, which absolutely do not know what it is like not to have a choice of cheese, see freedom, that's how it is as a demand for the state to secure their comfort zone, and that's why it's so difficult to explain now, this is me again linking to our the situation that if ukraine does not stop russia, then russia will go further and they will be forced to leave their comfort zone, and all this help that we receive, and for which we are certainly grateful, because nothing is guaranteed, in the world, nobody not obliged to provide this assistance, but it's not just help, it's an investment in their own security, well, here it's also important for us to understand how to prevent degradation like this... understanding freedom in society, because

you know, i remember very well the russian society of the 90s there , and by and large, at least in the big cities that were the centers of the country there, such as moscow or st. petersburg, the level of this freedom and responsibility for many people was much higher than in ukrainian society, then we saw hundreds of thousands of rallies there on the protection of free lithuania there, or people even demonstrated against the war in chechnya, and... there was a huge number of people who voted for liberal political forces, it wasn't a majority, maybe, but it was millions of people all over the country, and now those people are simply gone , we even now see there from sociological surveys that the majority of russians in general would like the country to be communist, their number is increasing every year, sympathy for stalin is growing every year, that is, from the society that i observed as a society that, as if weighs to freedom, left. only memories, it

is possible to write memoirs, but also the poor rights defenders, by the way, now remember, who in fact devoted their whole lives to making this society the way it was... they dreamed of it, made compromises with the authorities, remember like lyudmila aleksieva, nothing came of it, just nothing at all. this is a very important point for me, how can we prevent such opportunities in our country? i don't have a simple answer, but i will try to tell my vision, so really society can become rigid very quickly, because what i i see and observe in russian society, this is a rapid barbarization, that is the whole thin layer of culture. in the form of dostoevsky's ballet and so on, it, it simply overlaps with these patterns of behavior that we see on the ukrainian territory, which were forcibly brought here by the russian military, if for someone russian culture is a conventional tchaikovsky, perhaps with its ukrainian

roots, then for me it is bucha, this is russian culture, this is what we saw there, these dead bodies of people lying on the streets, and with hands often tied behind their backs until... the moment of their release, this is russian culture for me, well, how german culture during the second world war was auschwitz and babeniar, absolutely, and there is a difference between german and russian culture, but your question was not about that, so i will answer it first: the responsibility lies with the people who understand the threat, with the ukrainian intelligentsia, with the ukrainian civil society, because the minority determines the vector in which it will move and develop. country, and therefore it is important for this minority to be organized, for them to articulate their messages and for them to speak in different languages ​​about the same thing, that even in a genocidal war of extermination, we must remember that we are fighting to remain a free society, and

this challenge is twofold, and that this war did not begin in february of the 22nd year, as the world thinks, in february of the 14th, when we first got a chance to do so. to build a society, well , the attitude of the state and society towards this particular person is also very important, you understand, what we are for by and large, they were often not seen even with 200 there in 2014, when it came to forced migrants, even not only from the state, but also from society, do you remember those suspicious views of people who were forced to leave crimea and donbas, because they did not want to live under occupation. well, we as a society need to grow up rapidly, and for me one of the signs of growing up is self-reflection, it's when you don't just feel your emotions and think that you have the right to do whatever you want, because you're traumatized, angry, or something in something, and when you

you try to rationalize them like an adult, and so you have the right to all emotions, but even with all these emotions that we all feel during war, you have to take a measure. decisions that have a positive effect not only in the short term, but in the long term. i never mention it in the international arena, but i always remind it at meetings with the ukrainian audience. the war in syria started a long time ago, and the ukrainians, they too were not the type to fall asleep thinking about the poor syrians and they woke up thinking about the poor syrians, it's me... the same thing, when we talk about the indifference of the world, we have to remember ourselves, and i also remember, since i have been involved in human rights protection since 2007, about the huge scandal when the issue was simply discussed in ukraine to build some kind of shelter for syrian adults, and ukrainians, well, people in this

area said: no, no, no, we don't want anyone, and i will not be surprised that some of these people may also have become refugees and received a warm shelter in other countries. which we once denied to the same people who ran from the war, so self-reflection is a very important ability of adult society, well , you understand, to be honest, not every person is capable of self-reflection, here a lot depends on state policy, to be honest, again on the media, because to demand from each person, for her to engage in self-reflection, or in a period of, you know, survival, when you need a million problems you'. immediately, when money becomes less, and the children have to be fed to school, to drive a man who is in the army to collect help for this man himself to fight or work is also hard to to feed a family in

a changing economic environment, it's about survival again, yes, so we can't tell everyone, you have to, you know, reflect and understand the situation, it depends on how much states and society are able to respond to the call, you know , i... i just do not demand, i remind, and i speak and you and i always act based on the fact that i do not transfer my responsibility to the state, i am not a civil servant, i am not a politician. er, and i have great respect for the work of journalists, i understand the role of the media in free society, but i also know that people have a lot of power, and i appeal to people with a reminder that it must be done, and who is capable of it, even in the conditions of those that have developed, when, when the truth is that society is sick, when society is tired , when we go to bed and... and we don't know what awaits us in the morning, and the first thing we do is check, and what happened during the night, because even

if your city in kyiv was not shelled, yes, that does not mean that other cities were not affected that night, even under such conditions, i remind you that we have before us, no in front of someone, and in front of oneself, this is such a moral, i would say, obligation to reflect on this situation as much as it seems possible to us, well, people always perceive also... protection of human rights and responsibility for crimes against humanity as some also an effective tool, do you remember what was in ukraine, you could say, even joy, when an order was issued for the arrest of vladimir putin, well, it is important, i can explain, it is important not only from the point of view of law, in the long term , if putin will live, yes, he will gaga is waiting, in the sense that authoritarian regimes fall. and their leaders who thought they were untouchable are on trial, we

don't have all, to be honest, not all, but we have examples we have examples of milosevic, whom serbia did not want to hand over to the hague, but serbia had to, i.e. we do not know what the future will be, but with this warrant we are trying to construct the version of the future that we need, but even in the short term, it is super important, and here it is not even the legal consequences, but other consequences that matter, i eat a lot now. in different countries of the world, i meet with presidents, with members of the government, with parliamentarians, journalists, there with different audiences, and i know, and everyone in ukraine knows, that there are politicians, even in the western world, and not only orban, who would like to return to the so-called business as usual with russia, and here is this legal decision, this order for arrest, it puts a barrier for them, because maybe orbán can shake putin's hand in beijing? but already a person who declares his loyalty to democracy and voters

who is being watched for this, well, he already understands that if he shakes hands with the world's biggest kidnapper of children, then he will lose his career in this society, that is, there are still such short-term consequences that are super important for us. and tell me, hatred for putin is an absolutely understandable thing, but in principle, society in one way or another during the war lives in this category of hatred, there is no other way, you yourself mentioned about budcha, what emotions it arouses in people, it arouses hatred for those who did it, to the country, to the citizens of this country, who are able not to notice this, and how to get out of this hatred is also an important thing, do you remember how during the second world war there was a famous article by ilya orenburg, kill a german, ugh, and at the end of the war, even the soviet leadership forces ... there was an attempt to move away from this article and then

it was never translated, i read this article in the orenburg collection published in 1942, after 1945 it was already impossible to see it anywhere. it seems to me that when you are on the battlefield, this thinking is biphasic, that is, which is very common only two the colors are black, white, they are necessary, because you are trying to survive, because in a combat, if you don't quickly figure out where your enemy is, well, they will just kill you, so when you see that a russian soldier is coming at you, you are not you you have the luxury of thinking, or maybe he is fooled by russian propaganda, or maybe he has three children, or maybe he is a good person and an outstanding musician, well, if you think like that, he will kill you, because this is a battlefield, and that this logic, it is justified there, and a lot of things that you... are really on the field battle, it cannot be automatically transferred to the rear, because hatred is a very complex

feeling, like an emotion that needs an outlet, you ask me what to do with it, well, i am not a psychologist, it is difficult for me to answer this professionally , i know only two things, firstly, that the same commander-in-chief of the upa roman shukhevich said that we fight not because we hate those who are in front of us, but because we love those who are behind us, and secondly , that i can already see how this hatred in the rear, how people who cannot reach the russians, they do not on the battlefield, they... begin to pour out on those they can reach, that is, on themselves, and i can already see how this hatred, which is being cultivated, is fragmenting ukrainian society, and it seems to me that we are behind, if we are no longer in the trenches, we need to be kinder to each other, because everyone is sick, everyone is tired, you don't see how the war

was fought with a person, and how your word can hit this person, instead we watch on social networks, well, not just parade of these aggressive comments, but very dangerous trends that can tear apart the social organism, and this, when you look, sometimes, how they attack the last case was the paramedic kateryna na pseudopashka, who survived in azovstal, went through captivity and then they began to reprimand her there. that she doesn't look like what people want her to look like, she wrote a post about her weight, and you just think, god, we don't need putin, what are you doing, get off her, here it is very important to understand how simple this social, i would say, disappointment is in principle

the disappointment of a long war, people simply did not expect it to last this long. they are one way or another disappointed in the fact that they are forced to live with a long war, even if they understand the inevitability of this, as it will be reflected in the post-war part, you said at the beginning of the war that for you victory is not just the restoration of territorial integrity, but also the end democratic transformation of the state, but now there is such an uncomfortable question: will it be possible to do all this, to complete the democratic transformation, to create a real society. people of solidarity in the conditions, if we do not manage to restore this territorial integrity for a long time, then we will be forced to do it in the conditions that exist, because we cannot predict the future, but the future is also not written in advance by anyone, which means that our generation should do everything dependent and carry out these democratic transformations, so that the next

generations, if we do not manage to restore the territorial integrity of the borders of 91, it would be easier to do it. we have to look and play long, build long strategies, and what war does, it narrows this horizon, because we can't plan the next months, we can't plan a week, we, we can't plan for our day, we don't understand what and when will happen, and here is this ambition for a long strategy - it's also a resistance, because we 're saying that no matter what, we know that one day we'll recover it, one day we'll be back in these borders, and now we're taking some intermediate steps. i will give an example so that it does not sound abstract: i am a student of ukrainian dissidents, i have many personal roles evgeny sverstyuk, a philosopher, writer, prisoner of soviet political camps, played the role of fate. i read a lot of memoirs of ukrainian and russian dissidents, and i thought about this issue, because from the point of view of the short-term

perspective, well, they looked like the ones who lost, because... the movement was crushed, some people were killed, some people ended up in soviet gulags , there was no mass support, there was no mass support, fortunes were destroyed, families were divided, so in the short term they lost, but now we, in 2024, we know that we regained our independence in the 90s, only because in the 60s this group of people struggled, so this is the... laying out a long strategy and planting seeds that will sprout, well that's super important, but what does to be in the first place, an efficient state or an efficient society in such a situation, or is it not necessary to distinguish? i think that an effective society is interested in an effective state, well, we can't pay three times, but we can't, but now a lot of things in

the army are still covered by volunteer things, we have powerful volunteer funds have grown up, they are already buying... such weapons, well, they started with mattresses in the 14th year, yes, with some socks, and now they are already buying some unreal, heavy, heavy mechanics, although in reality they should do it an efficient state for our taxes, obviously, that's what i'm getting at, that paying three times is not unreasonable, we 're doing it temporarily now, an efficient society is very interested in the state becoming. effective, so that we start paying once, but already, you know, to be exactly on target. thank you to you, mrs. alexandra, our interlocutor was a human rights defender. thank you to everyone who was with us on this broadcast, which vitaly portnikov conducted for you, i wish you all the best, friends, victory and peace, i congratulate

the viewers of the tv channel, my name is kateryna galko and this is our exclusive conversation with panix. a full-scale invasion began in ukraine, so how do you remember the mood towards moldova at that time and did you see a threat to moldova then as well? of course, we believed from the very beginning that this russian invasion of ukraine was a flagrant violation of international rights we supported ukraine from the first day, we knew about the intelligence, we knew the information

that the war could start, so we prepared in case of unforeseen circumstances. but at the same time, until the last minute, we did not think that such a big full-scale war, the biggest in europe after the world war. therefore, of course, we mobilized the entire society in support of ukraine, first of all we helped the influx of refugees, but then, of course, through humanitarian support, support for green belts for ukrainian goods, etc. also. of course we had to focus on minimizing the impact of war on our citizens, even though we do not have an actual war, we are engaged in a hybrid war. we observed rather tragic

economic consequences, therefore, at the same time as helping the ukrainian people, we were also focused on helping moldova. how the attitude and scale of aid changed for... first of all, let me mention people-to-people contacts, because i think that's the most important thing. i think that there were many ukrainians who discovered moldovans for themselves, and many moldovans who discovered ukrainians, and i know very beautiful stories about how people get closer, about how people start cooperation, be it mayors, local authorities or businessmen. i know that the ukrainians started here. started a new life, and i think we saw a high appreciation of how moldovan society responded to the refugee crisis, you know, before the war in the unhcr,

the high commissioner for refugees, you know, thought that we could take a maximum of 25 thousand people , but as the whole society mobilized and we saw how people are taking people into their homes, we have seen a lot... thanks to this, we were able to take in 125,000 refugees at the height of the crisis, which is five times more than our total estimated capacity. and you know, we've seen a lot of these human stories. of course, this affects society as a whole. you know, i think a lot of people are starting to wonder about our real risks. in addition, our

security strategy, for example, was updated for the first time. the threat from russia was mentioned in an official document of this kind. and we saw, we saw how people, for example, began to doubt ours. they are still less than 50% because neutrality has long been used as a concept that will help us get rid of russian troops, but of course now we see that it doesn't work that way. so, we are observing profound changes, as in contacts between people. moldova and ukraine simultaneously began their journey to the european union. how difficult is this path. was for

your country, and what are the biggest challenges now? i believe that this was a natural path, both for ukraine and for moldova. you know, we have there is a majority in the parliament, and if you look at the electoral program, we said that we will apply to join the eu by the end of the mandate in 2024, actually the 25th year. so, you know, we thought that the submissions. and we have always talked with the eu about the fact that our neighbors should not mean our exclusion from the status of a potential candidate. now we have seen that the war in ukraine has brought us very close to our european partners, and this

applies to the architecture of the entire european... such a project, that is why it is important for europe that ukraine wins, so we didn't see it as a difficult path, we didn't see it as a change of course, and we are grateful that our european partners saw, saw our point of view, and when i say our point of view, i mean both ukraine and moldova. the russian federation still... has a significant influence on life in moldova, how can its influence be reduced? so, one thing that i would like everyone to understand is that, you know, it's like 2014 in ukraine, you know, we need time to change some of these situations, and you know, i was talking about the attitude of society, but we see great instability now. we

we see steps in one direction and then steps back, so we are still i mentioned a little bit about hybrid warfare, because we still see a lot of disinformation, propaganda, hybrid means, cyber attacks, so what, and we know, and our people know, what russian propaganda is, how it works, makes people disillusioned with democracy and how democracy works. or to be disillusioned with the speed of european integration or to be disillusioned with, for example, the speed of economic growth or the speed of front-line advancement. we still need to to combat it, and we only began to build our resilience and our tools to combat this disinformation after the full-scale invasion of ukraine in 2022

. we should have started in 2014, unfortunately we didn't have the political will then, so now we are working on the resilience of our army in terms of non-lethal weapons, or better procedures, better communication, better service delivery, better communication, we are also. we are also working on our disinformation tools to combat these hybrid approaches and hybrid by war so, we look forward to continuing our partnership in this. the regions of transnistria and gagauzia remain a major unsolved problem. how do you assess such a threat and what are the ways of development?

action, yes, of course, we have had this frozen conflict since '92, and i mentioned to you that we were very insistent on neutrality, because we wanted the russian troops out. in 1992, at the osce summit in istanbul, russia undertook to withdraw its troops, but it never did. now we see a very interesting one a kind of balance, because now you know ... there is a very small russian contingent in transnistria, and you know, now we see that the border is closed. the transnistrian region is very dependent on trade with the eu, because now the majority of their trade is also with

the european union. the power of the dcfta