and constantly involve these people in some actions, that is, we need to start work on building such an international network, if russia builds on money, on propaganda, on some corrupt connections or on political influence, then we need to build it on values ​​and on such very basic things as human solidarity and empathy and a sense of personal responsibility for everything from... so after this story with the termination of consular services for military service men, will there not be cracks in the diaspora itself? obviously, that will go, it seems to me that, in general, this is a question of mobilization, it is very complicated, and different parts of ukrainian society have different interests in this regard, and here the ukrainian state looks like this to me from the side, it takes mutually contradictory steps, on the one hand. on the one hand, it seems to emasculate this

draft law, not until and unless the norms demanded by that part of society, which is fighting against this law, disappear, on the other hand, a completely different signal that we will now take care of those ukrainians who are abroad, maybe it's not a fight mobilization for justice, this is a different , different, different struggle, well, it should have some real mechanisms in any case. implementation, so it looks like these are different conflicting signals and it 's hard for me to understand what our public policy is on mobilization, again, i'm not a military expert, i can only look at it from a human rights perspective, but back to your question , it seems to me that despite all this, a huge part of people abroad understand that this is a war for survival, and feel their responsibility to ensure that their state... survives, even

while they are safe abroad, they do something. in every state, i meet such people who tell me how many charity actions they have done, how they have carried something themselves, how they carry out some kind of information work, there should be more of these people, not fewer, which means that they should conduct campaigns on involving other people in this work, and not just relying solely on one's own strength. we have already used the word survival several times. in our conversation, and here is an important point, that we had the impression, at least after the maidan of 2013-14, that from this civilization of survival, which existed on the territory of ukraine, we can say the whole 20, 20, 20 century, we are moving to such the values ​​of the civilized world, which there require a completely different attitude to human life , to solidarity, to mutual understanding, to respect for... the state and the state's respect for

the person, and now we have again, it is logical, after the beginning of this great war, moved to the value of survival , as far as it is concerned in general on human rights and on the perspective of general perception of human rights by the citizens themselves as a value? it affects a lot, because war is poison, war is poison not only for ukrainian society, for any society, at one time, when i was studying at tenfer university , i specially took a course in poetry. us and about international settlement in order to understand these patterns and be prepared for what awaits us, both during the war and after the war ends, however it ends, and it is quite difficult to refrain this framework of freedom and democracy, human rights, when survival instincts come to the fore, and it's understandable, it's... there's some

guilt, it's just a context in which a responsible person has to rely even more on self-reflection, and just every day , making a thousand decisions, it is difficult to remember what we are fighting for, but what gives me optimism is that when you open any research for all these years regarding ukrainians and values. that is, in the hierarchy of values, ukrainians always put freedom in the first place, perception freedom, it generally implies a duty, but right away it is important to understand whether freedom is a tool for building a civilized country, or freedom is an element for an anarchic perception of oneself and the state and oneself in the state, this is a very correct question, because freedom and the will, you know, it's so obvious, and different categories, it's the same as someone told me that... everyone was on the maidan, but everyone stood on

the maidan for their own, well, that is, for their idea, and it's true, it truth needs even more in-depth research because if for me freedom... is the ability to take responsibility for one's actions, that is, for me, responsibility and freedom are equivalent concepts, that is, i do not transfer responsibility for my life to someone else, i myself am able, i have the freedom to take responsibility for it, for someone , freedom, for example, is often used to explain to western societies the problems that occur in them, i say, it is the ability to choose between different cheeses in the supermarket, that is freedom. freedom of choice, just went to the supermarket, chose different ones cheeses, i am a free person, i can choose my own cheeses, and this is how i see it, well, this is how freedom was perceived in soviet society, there were not several types of cheese, and those who have access to products were considered free, obviously, and now western societies, which they absolutely do not

know what it is not to have a choice of cheese, they see freedom, this is how it is, as a requirement for the state to secure their comfort zone, and that is why it is so difficult now and... explanation, this is me again linking to our situation, what if ukraine does not stop russia, then russia will go further and they will be forced out of the zone comfort, and all this help that we will receive, and for which we are certainly grateful, because nothing is guaranteed in the world, no one is obliged to provide this help, but it is not just help, it is an investment in their own safety, well here it is also important... for us to understand how to prevent the degradation of this understanding of freedom in society, because you know, i remember very well the russian society there for 90 years, and by and large, at least in the big cities that were the centers of the country there , such as moscow or st. petersburg, level this freedom and responsibility among many

people was much higher than in ukrainian society, then we saw hundreds of thousands of rallies there in defense of a free lithuania, or people even went to demonstrations against it. the war in chechnya, and there was a huge number of people who voted for liberal political forces, it was not a majority, maybe, but it was millions of people all over the country, and now these people are simply gone, we even now see them there in sociological polls , that the majority of russians would generally like the country was communist, their number grows every year, sympathy for stalin grows every year, that is, from the society that i observed as a society that does not... as if aspire to freedom, only memories remain, it is possible to write memoirs, but and the poor rights activists, by the way, now to mention, who in fact put their whole lives into making this society the way they dreamed of it, made compromises with the authorities, do you remember lyudmila

aleksieva, nothing came of it , just nothing at all, this is very important to me moment, how can we prevent such possibilities in our country, i don’t have a simple answer, but i will try to tell my vision, so society can really become rigid very quickly, because what i see and observe in russian society is a rapid barbarization, then this whole a thin layer of culture in the form of a dostoevsky ballet and so on, it simply overlaps with these patterns of behavior that we see on the ukrainian territory, which were forcibly brought here by the russian military, if for someone russian culture... this is conventional tchaikovsky at least with his ukrainian roots, then for me this is bucha, this is russian culture, this is what we saw there, these dead bodies of people lying on the streets, and with their hands often tied behind their backs, until the moment of their release, this for me, russian culture,

well, like german culture during the second world war, auschwitz and babeniar were absolutely, and there is a difference between german and russian culture, but your question was not about that, so i will answer it first... responsibility on people who understand the threat, in ukrainian intelligentsia, in ukrainian civil society, because the minority determines the vector in which the country will move and develop, and therefore it is important that this minority is organized, that it articulates its messages and that it speaks in different languages ​​about the same thing, which even in a genocidal war of extermination, we must... remember that we are fighting to remain a free society, and that challenge is twofold, and that this war did not begin in february of '22, as the world thinks, in february 14th, when we first got a chance to build such a free society, well

, the attitude of the state and society towards a particular person is also very important, you understand, something that we have not seen very often, even since 200 there in 2014 , when it came to forced resettlement. even not only from the side of the state, but also from the side of society, remember those suspicious views of people who were forced to leave. keep donbas because they did not want to live under occupation. well, we as a society need to grow up rapidly, and for me one of the signs of growing up is self-reflection in 2007, about a huge scandal, when the question of building a shelter for syrian adults was simply discussed in ukraine, and ukrainians, well, people in this area said: no, no, no, we do not want anyone, and i will not be surprised that some of these people maybe they also became refugees. and received a warm shelter in other countries, which we once refused to the same people who fled

from war. therefore, self-reflection is a very important ability of adult society. well, you understand, to be honest, not every person capable of self-reflection, a lot of it depends on public policy, frankly, again, and the media, to require every person to engage in self-reflection, or in a period of, you know, survival. when you need to solve a million problems at once, when money is getting less, and children need to be fed to school, to drive a husband who is in the army, to collect help for this husband himself to fight or work too hard to feed the family in the changing economic conditions, it's about survival again, yes, so we can't all to say, you have to, you know, reflect and understand the situation, it depends on how much the state. society is able to respond to advertising. you know, i'm not just demanding, i'm reminding. and i

always speak, act and act based on the fact that i do not transfer my responsibility to the state. i am not a public servant, i am not a politician, and i have great respect for the work of journalists, i understand the role of the media in a free society, but i also know that people have a lot of power, and i am appealing to people to remind them that this... need to do and who is capable of it, even in the conditions of those that have developed, when, when the truth is that society is sick, when society is tired, when we go to bed and do not know what awaits us in the morning, and the first thing we do is check, and what happened last night, because even if your city in kyiv was not shelled, yes, that does not mean that other cities were not affected that night, even in such conditions, i remind you... that we have before ourselves, not before someone, but before by ourselves,

this is such a moral, i would say, obligation to reflect on this situation as far as we are concerned it seems possible, well, people always perceive the protection of human rights and responsibility for crimes against humanity as some kind of effective tool, remember the one that was in ukraine, you can say, even joy, when an arrest warrant was issued. vladimir putin, well, this is important, i can explain, it is important not only from the point of view of law, in the long term, if putin lives, yes, then he will be in trouble, in the sense that authoritarian regimes fall, and their leaders who considered themselves untouchable , turn out to be before the court, we have, not all, but not all, but we have examples, we have examples of milosevic, whom serbia did not want to hand over to the hague, but serbia was forced, that is, we... we do not know what the future will be , but with this order we are trying to construct the version of the future that we need, but even in

the short term it is super important, and here it is not even legal consequences, but other consequences that matter. i travel a lot now to different countries of the world, i meet with presidents, with members of the government, with parliamentarians, journalists, there with various audiences, and i know, and everyone in ukraine knows, that there are politicians even in the western world and... not only orban, who would like to return to the so-called business as usual with russia, and here is this legal decision, this arrest warrant , he sets up a barrier for them, because maybe orbán can shake putin's hand in beijing, but already a person who declares his commitment to democracy and whose voters follow this, well, he already understands that if he shakes the hand of the biggest person in the world a kidnapper of children, well... he will get rid of his career in this society, that is, here there are still such short-term consequences that are

super important for us. and tell me, hatred for putin is absolutely understandable, but in principle, one way or another , during the war, society lives in this category of hatred, there is no other way. you yourself mentioned about buja, what kind of emotions it arouses in people, it arouses hatred for those who did it, for the country, for the citizens of this country who are capable of this. not to notice, and how to get out of this hatred is also an important thing, do you remember how during the second world war there was ilya orenburg's famous article, kill a german, huh. during the war, even the soviet leadership forced to try to move away from this article and then it was never republished, i read this article in the orenburg collection published in 1942, after 1945 it was already impossible to see it anywhere. it seems to me that when you are on

the battlefield, this thinking is two-phase, that is , which is very... well, it has only two colors, black and white, it is necessary, because you are trying to survive, because on the battlefield, if you do not quickly understand, where is your enemy, well, they will just kill you, so when you look, what on a russian soldier is coming for you, you don't have the luxury of thinking, maybe he is fooled by russian propaganda, or maybe he has three children, or maybe he is a beautiful person and an outstanding musician, well, if you think like that, he will kill you, because it's a battlefield, and that 's the logic, it's there...justified, and a lot of things that are justified on the battlefield can't be automatically transferred to the rear, because hatred is a very complex feeling, like an emotion that needs a way out, you ask me what to do with her, well, i am not a psychologist, i am me it is difficult to answer this professionally, i know only two things, the first is that the same

commander-in-chief of the upa, roman shukhevich, said that we fight: not because we hate those who are in front of us, but because we love those who are in behind us, and the second thing i already see is how this hatred is in the rear, how people who cannot reach the russians, they are not on the battlefield, they begin to pour out on those whom they can reach, that is, on themselves myself, and i already see how this hatred, which is being cultivated, fragments ukrainian society, and it seems to me that we are in the rear, if we are already... in the trenches, we need to be kinder to each other, because everyone is sick, everyone is tired, you do not see how the war was fought with a person, and how your word can hit that person instead, we observe in social networks, well, not just a parade of these aggressive comments, but very dangerous trends that can tear apart the social

organism, and this is when you sometimes look at how... , who survived in azovstalia, went through captivity and then they started scolding her there that she doesn't look the way people would like her to look, she wrote a post that she was scolded for her weight, and you just think, my god, we don't need putin, what are you doing, get away from her. at the same time, it is very important to understand how in principle this is social, i would say, disappointment, just disappointment in a long war, people simply did not expect that it would be so long, they are somehow disappointed in the fact that they are forced to live for a long time war, even if understand its inevitability, how it

will be reflected in the post-war period, you said at the beginning of the war that for... for you , victory is not just the restoration of territorial integrity, but also the completion of the democratic transformation of the state, but now there is such an uncomfortable question, is it possible will do all this, complete the democratic transformation, create a real society of united people in the conditions, if we do not manage to restore this territorial integrity for a long time, then we will be forced to do it in the conditions that exist, because we cannot predict the future, but the future is also no one's... written in advance, it means that our generation must do everything dependent and carry out these democratic transformations, so that the next generation, if we fail to do this, restore the territorial integrity of the borders of 91- th year, it was easier to do it, we have to look and play long, build long strategies, and what war does, it narrows that horizon,

because we can't plan the next months, we can't plan the week, we, we on our we cannot plan the day, we do not understand. what will happen and when, and this ambition for a long strategy is also a resistance, because we say that whatever happens, we know that one day we will restore it, one day we will return to these borders, and now we are taking certain intermediate steps , i will give an example so that it does not sound abstract: i am a pupil of ukrainian dissidents, yevgeny sverstyuk played many of my personal roles in fate, he is a philosopher, writer, prisoner of soviet political camps. i read a lot of memoirs of ukrainian and russian dissidents, and thought about it question, because from the point of view of the short-term perspective, well, they looked. like those who lost, because the movement was crushed, some people were killed, some people ended up in the soviets, there was no mass

support, there was no mass support, fortunes were destroyed, families were divided, so in the short term they lost, but now we, in 2024, we know that we regained our independence in the 90s only because in the 60s this group of people fought. therefore, this is laying down a long strategy and sowing seeds that will germinate, well this is super important, but what should come first, an efficient state or an efficient society in such a situation, or should it not be distinguished? i think that an effective society is interested in an effective state, well, we can't pay three times, but we can't, but now a lot of things in the army are still covered by volunteer things, we have grown in strength. volunteer funds, they are already buying such weapons, well, they started with mattresses in the 14th year, yes, with some socks, and now they are already buying some

unrealistic, difficult, difficult mechanics, although in fact it should be done by an efficient state for our taxes, obviously, what i am leading to is that paying three times is not unreasonable, we are doing it now temporarily, an efficient society. is very interested in the fact that the state becomes efficient, so that we start paying once, but already, you know, to be exactly on target. thank you, ms. oleksandra, our interlocutor was human rights activist oleksandra matviychuk, thank you to everyone who was with us on this broadcast, which was conducted for you by vitaly portnikov, i wish you all the best to you, friends, victory and peace. thinking about a new mattress, but here's what's stopping you.

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on may 8, wednesday, the espresso tv channel will broadcast a special project dedicated to the day of remembrance and victory over nazism. about the role of ukrainians in the second world war, about 10 years of the european tradition of commemorating the day of remembrance, about the red poppy and the first minute of peace, about the rejection of may 9 with parades and immortal regiments. about 10 years of decolonization, breaking away from the scoop and how it helped our resilience in modern warfare, commemoration day about the second world war through the prism of history, sociology, politics, culture in our special broadcast. your favorite presenters, extremely interesting guests, respected and respected experts, during the day on espresso. a new model of memory, a new symbolism, a new us.

may 8, special... act espresso to the day of remembrance and victory over nazism. poppies of memory. 10 years. taking the wounded from the battlefield in time means saving his life. picked up bc, picked up the boys. a scooter is a way from zero to our life. on this stage of the war, the atv is the best solution for evacuating the wounded from scratch. we encourage everyone to donate to the collection from zero to life for atvs for the 90th third brigade of kholodny yara in the direction of chasiv.

for your attention, the news broadcast on the espresso tv channel, in the studio of iryna koval, i will tell you about the most important events right now. they returned home, another 11 children were managed to be taken out of the temporarily occupied kherson region. this was announced by the head of the region oleksandr prokudin. we are talking about two orphan girls aged 10 and 13, as well as four boys and five girls age. from the river to the 16th. currently, children in a safe city receive the necessary medical and psychological assistance. the draft law on the mobilization of convicts was adopted in the verkhovna rada. people's deputies informed about it. the relevant decision was supported by 279 people's elected representatives. therefore, the document allows prisoners to be released for military service under a contract.