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we continue the saturday political club on the espressa tv channel. dmytro didora and vitaly portnikov are already in touch with us. our next guest is volodymyr gryzko, diplomat, minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2007-2009, head of the russian research center. mr. volodymyr, good. evening, glory to ukraine, to the heroes of sla, i congratulate you, panetra, i congratulate you, mr. vitaly, congratulations, mr. volodymyr, well, you know, all the colleagues with whom i spoke in the last days after the inauguration of vladimir putin, they keep asking what putin may differ after this, this putin from the previous one, this term from the previous one, but it seems to me that the political periodization of russia does not depend on the elections, agree, well, mr. vitaliy, the first thing i think is... that calling it

an inauguration is a creative exaggeration, i for myself, i call it a coronation to the kingdom, well , another, well, by itself, a self-reinvention, well, if that’s how you can go that far, because in fact, well, those who win and become a legitimate leader are inaugurated, well, there is no way to do that before this. and come up not even possible, lonely, unhappy, uh, uh , abandoned by everyone, frankly speaking, frankly speaking, when i watched this ceremony, this , this, and then, a victory freak, i honestly feel sorry for him, even to a certain extent, well, how much it was possible to live an interesting political life and stay in history, how much it was possible to really

get stuck in... history and stay with the goy even among his own, look, even his boyars and those who are fenced off from him, they cannot approach him, and look what was on this one to this prayer, when one kagibist sang asanna, the second kagibist is very sad, regarding your question, mr. vitaly, will something change, you know, in order for something to change? some factors are needed that would affect the possibility of these changes, and we actually do not see such a thing, inside everything is preserved, there are no movements there yet that would require changes, outside too, unfortunately, uh, well, so what , you know, they push, that is , support on one side, support on the other. so that russia does not

lose, that is why such a shaky balance, and it seems to me that under such circumstances there is no need for putin to change in principle, well , for now... that everything that is around, well, does not require him to make any extremely serious moves in one direction or another. mr. volodymyr, can we predict in putin's new term what will happen to his relations with the west, how they might change, were there any messages to the west in his inauguration? well, the only thing... it would be possible to hear such, well, relatively new, is during this performance of the holy victory frenzy, he somehow woke up such the opinion that they say, well, we also remember

our, well, not ours, but the allies of the ussr in the anti-hitler coalition, we were together, although the truth is that he did not name any country, so we too... would of course be glad if, well, they say everything has turned back, but at the same time, he is already talking about the fact that we are for cooperation and negotiations, but we will not be intimidated and the like, and he is already starting to talk about strategic nuclear weapons, that is, something like that , you know, the feeling that he is not sure and doesn't know what to do put. whether to continue this, as they once said, agaltelian course against the west, or to try to somehow find ways for reconciliation, but i will tell you frankly my opinion, and not only mine, he

really has little time, not in terms of physical survival there, it is there, i think, all this public that is still around... can keep it afloat for a certain period of time, no, no, i mean the possibilities of the russian economy, which even according to er - estimates of er by some economists in russia itself , not to mention those who fled from there a long time ago, speaks of the fact that the current situation, and if the sanctions are even a little... strengthened, then there is actually very little margin of safety, 2-2 years, and then it will be time for putin to choose, or the country will fly into the abyss, and

accordingly, not only the economy will change , but also politics, or well leads to... will have to make a very difficult and very unpopular decision regarding how to get out of this adventure, how it will happen, of course we cannot predict now, but the trend in this context, it seems to me, is for putin clear, clearly not positive. and tell me, mr. volodymyr, do you understand why the french president decided, decided that the ambassador of his country in moscow should be present at this. because i see even in the french press a certain surprise and such questions, well , let's decide anyway, either we send signals that we can send troops to ukraine, by the way, emmanuel macron even talked about this with internet users today, or we we are sending an ambassador to the inauguration, well, it is impossible

to do all this at the same time, well, you know, it was also a certain paradox for me, i thought, well, again but for that. you have to sit in the position of the one who does it, i thought, well, what is for me now, as the president of france, well , the most important thing is this, well, it is important for the image of france, for my own image, and i came to the banal thought that that i, as the french president, would be very happy if the olympic games scheduled for july went off without a hitch. that is, so that, well, there, uh, at least, on the russian side, there was either no dirt at all, or there was as little of it as possible, and i think that, well, i’ll give you this one i will send

my ambassador to your pseudo-inaugural festival, he will be there in the 25th row, but everyone will celebrate it, and you will think that i am still on... as aggressive as i really am, and the fact that the position macron has not changed, you are absolutely right, mr. vitaly, when you say that... actually today he repeated the same position, he does not want to fight, but, well, we know that all that is said before but, there is no makes no sense, reads the second part of this phrase, so i think that there are purely such technological, tactical things that actually, well, can be just a kind of, well, a bargaining chip, if you like, so that... at this moment, until the end of the olympic games, the russian

special services, preserved agents, agents of influence and so on, sat quietly and did not spoil, well, the olympic holiday. mr. volodymyr, in addition to france, there were also hungary, slovakia, greece, malta and cyprus, why do the states of the european union still want to be present at... such an inauguration, is it possible to keep everything under control, is it possible that they want to keep communication channels with the kremlin? well, about two the first, hungary and slovakia, i think we have no doubt here why this is happening, i think we have already discussed it many times and understand the political, so to speak, underpinning of this, this, this position, relative to... on the three mediterranean countries, i think, each of them has its own reasons, but the reasons

are mainly economic, for greece, it’s er, it’s a merchant fleet that continues to make money by carrying russian cargo, and it’s not for anyone not a secret neither in the eu nor outside the eu, for malta from it golden visas. also, most of which , by the way, they sell to russians, it’s also not, it’s a big secret, although the trend there now is to stop this gold business, but at least until this moment , her mother earned a lot on this visa business, regarding cyprus, i also think that here... mainly on the one hand economic, on the other hand also political

aspects, because look, i don't know whether you have been to cyprus and whether you have seen what is happening there, sometimes it seems to me , that once upon a time in the ussr they said that there was such a don't quote politically correct proverbs, no, no, i... i'm talking about a bird, not a bird, but bulgaria is not abroad, well, i told you, don't quote politically incorrect ones, well, that's it, that's it, i'm talking about the soviet union, mr. vitaly, so it's us, we're going back to the chats, and here's the feeling that at some point there are more russians than local residents, that is , unfortunately, there are a lot of russian influences there, both political and... unfortunately, also economic , because russia entered there quite intensively, so every government is like that

of the situation is trying to find a middle ground somewhere, all the more so, under the guise of the fact that each european country can make a sovereign decision in this regard, it is not necessary to unite and look brussels in the mouth, so i think that these things are unpleasant, but not strategic vladimir putin will go to beijing this month, and it is interesting that on the eve of this visit, the people's republic of china published another such peace plan, which is actually a plan to freeze russia's war with ukraine, perhaps even a joint one initiative, how to counter this with ukrainian diplomacy, because we can imagine that during the negotiations sidzimpin and putin will both try to present themselves as peacemakers. you know, i think you... are right that this is far from a chinese plan, well, let's think out loud, you and

i are ideological allies, the truth is that i am in a very bad situation, when, well, i am taxed from all sides, i in isolation, but you want to help me, what do i do in such a situation, i'm just asking you , mr. vitaly, please, from on my behalf, but please start my plan, well, maybe add a couple more flowers there for the sake of beauty, oh, but let's push it through, but hey... because of you, you, you are great, you are beautiful, you can influence the neighbors and so on and so forth, i am very much indebted to your compliment, but what do i get in the end if i present your plan, yes, and we get mutual support and help, because we are alone without one is clearly weaker than we are together, and

this, by the way, seems to me to be deep beijing's interest in russia not losing, and russia is needed... which is half alive, half, excuse me, dead, with a completely, uh, china-oriented economy, which is very, very good for him, so that he begins to dictate his conditions, and putin has nowhere to go, because the only, the only source of income, the yuan is, this is china, well, how, as a foreign currency, which, which is still circulating, and that's all, that is, that's why it mutual... interest in keeping this message of evil, and the main line is right between beijing and moscow, so i think that during the visit to beijing it will be made public, or rather it will be said there that russia very much

supports this plan, well, if it does not support its own plan, and that we are interested in a peaceful start. negotiations to ensure that no one suffers anymore, and all this talk that we have known and heard about for a long time, and why it is beneficial, ee china, well , the key issue of security is removed from the agenda, ibid. there is not a single word in what has been made public. about territorial integrity, about international law, about the fact that it is not it is possible to violate and so on and so on, that is , in fact, this is to take the case in a completely different direction, and pretend to be peacekeepers, i think that we need, we really need to keep

a common line with our strategic partners, because this is the most important moment, well now many people are starting to talk about... about the fact that we need to drop everything now and go to the countries of the south and convince them, well, we will convince them, they will vote at the next session of the general assembly, another resolution, which it is a great pity, there is no binding force. i i think that we should not spend time and effort on this right now, we should maintain a common front with our western partners. receive as many weapons and financial aid as possible and only in this way form the agenda of any subsequent peace conference, everything else and yet, why china first after, after the inauguration, why putin will go to the leader, the head of china,

it is such the challenge is steep, you can say whether the leader of the people's republic of china wants to share with... he came back from europe, you know, the overlord with the vassal in this way he does not communicate, i think that putin simply has nowhere else to go, and wherever he can go, he can go to the civilized world, well, fortunately not anymore, as actually his boyars have not been able to go for a long time and and and and.. . actually forever, i think, because the door to the civilized world is already closed to them, so china remains, north korea remains, iran remains, well , with a few fighter jets on the sides, you can still fly to one of the arab countries, well

but you know, given that our drones now already fly for 1,500 km, then this story can be quite... dangerous. thank you, thank you, mr. volodymyr, volodymyr hrytska, former minister of foreign affairs of ukraine, head of the russian research center, was in touch with us. let's continue this topic, which, by the way, is related to china, with a conversation with maria oleksya, a journalist, editor-in-chief on one of the french television channels. congratulations, mrs. maria. congratulations. well, let's be able to summarize these results of sidzempin's visit to france. it was like that an important visit, they were preparing for it. macron even invited sidzempin to his house, his grandparents, yes in the pyrenees, it was clear that it was important for the president of france, for the president of the people's republic of china and... what was the result? the result is very half-hearted and i think that macron just still over-relies on his personal ability to convince someone

with his own charm or some of these personal details, like for example the invitation to the pyrenees, which was very surreal, where yodimpin was even given a blanket with pyrenean wool, and many more gifts, and before that, let me remind you that at the elysée palace at the official dinner... there was sophie marceau, a very famous actress in china, there was luc besson, there was even salma hayak with her husband, who owns a number of luxury brands in france, that is, this red carpet was rolled out to the maximum, and it looked a little surreal, and reminded, you know, how macron received putin in bregançon in august 2019, this is the official summer residence of the french presidents, where they invite very a narrow circle of friends. politicians, it was in august during macron's vacation, and this visit by sijin pin reminded me very much of some such déjà vu, absolutely unhealthy, this visit of putin, and there was another one, by the way, in 2017 in

versailles, when macron showed putin paintings, there are several photos where they are walking along these corridors, and macron still believes that he can somehow charm, convince with these some personal details, personal approach of people of such a type as putin. and history repeats itself once again with ding pin. macron does not seem to learn from his own mistakes and thinks that by applying the same technique, the same methods, he can achieve some result, but he does not understand that with these leaders of these world poles it does not work like that, maybe with european or american leaders it works, with the chinese leader it does not, and the result is that we have very half-hearted promises, we have a truce during the olympic games that will take place in... this summer, again, how this will be controlled, how exactly in practice this truce will take place, no one is saying, and very - the rejection statement was very disappointing

china was very disappointed by russia's aid through dual purpose goods, because firstly, these words were not even said by xi jinping himself, it was already at the press conference that macron thanked him for his commitment not to help russia. but in practice it is completely unrealistic, because we know that if russia were to import high-precision machines, optics, well, that is, there the import figures have increased, it seems, by 70% in the last two years, these are just, well, surreal figures, and macron basically does nothing achieved with this visit, so what? we can generally talk about the tour of the leader of the people's republic of china, not only to france with... what kind of mood he went there, because we saw that in some countries, for example, in serbia , he was received very well, that they interrupted the broadcasts on all televisions and broadcast

only when the leader of china arrived, what are the goals pursued by the leader of the prc, you know, the goal is very simple, it is approximately what the states did after the second world war, it is the strengthening of influence in europe, it is the strengthening of economic ties, which is so great. .. very strong, and it is essentially friendship with the countries that, as a matter of priority, are already demonstrating a desire to renounce american dominance in the world, this is hungary, this is serbia, and this is france, because macron, for his part, has also repeatedly said that europe should be autonomous, that europe should not depend on the united states and build their own strategy. unlike hungary and sterbiy, france, however, believes that in this process it can take... the leadership and act as such, let's say, such a very important pole on a par with china, the states or russia, that it is unclear whether it is realistic, given that

europe, and france in particular, does not have its own military production, this country is not autonomous in terms of energy resources, that is, what autonomy and what strong position can we talk about, but france is added to this, to this number of countries, and the chinese leader is simply taking advantage of this, of course. he chose the date, by the way, not by chance: this year marks the 60th anniversary of diplomatic relations with france, 75 years of diplomatic relations with hungary, as well as the 25th anniversary of the bombing of side of nato, the chinese embassy in belgrade, that is , you see very symbolic moments have been chosen, and this trip is absolutely strategic, it is the building and strengthening of influence in europe, it is economic ties, it is strengthening. tour process, also one belt, one road, which hungary has already joined, and, for example, china has invested 2 billion euros to connect the capitals

of hungary and serbia speed. by train, that is, there are economic interests coming from all sides, in fact, and well, somewhere china is pulling the covers over itself, let's say so, and it's not a fact that he even plays into the hands of russia, or does it, well, if, let's say, in some such tandem together with russia, these are purely chinese interests, absolutely economic interests of a country for which economic development is a priority, and tell me, mrs. maria, this conversation constantly about, the chances that french troops can get into ukraine, macron continues this conversation, we already talked about it in our program today, he said it today, explaining it to ordinary internet users in such direct answers, that we certainly don't want to fight, but we have to intervene if ukrainian sovereignty may be in danger, how much politics there are and how

many real intentions the security forces have. a lot of politics, because in the same interview at the end he said: "i sincerely i hope that we will not have to fight, well, that is , the president, as usual, here he is, if there were swings, right to left, roller coasters, it’s already something like that, well, the french media are already used to it, it’s already the fourth month of these conversations, which are not what does not lead, there this statement of fake news from a supposed american official caused a bit of a stir, and also that it seems to be already there. french troops are in ukraine, although they later denied it all. i think macron is partially confused, i have such a theory, you know. because too often he returns to these words and too often they sound in the exact opposite way, then he says: we must be ready for everything, for everything, and if there, for example, the front line or some defense lines of ukraine move, then will have to go, and then in

that's why... in his interview he says: i hope we never have to do this, and we have to understand exactly the context, when this red line does come, again we go back to the red lines, that is, somehow it swings, you know, in different directions, and i don't see it yet in this sequence, i think he has this opinion unequivocally, but he has no support and he cannot follow this well-trodden path, because he has no support for it. and how does french society feel about sending troops to the territory of ukraine, what do ordinary people think people talking? they have a negative attitude, they have a negative attitude, the last polls, it seems, there were no fresh polls, the last polls i saw were about a month ago, and there two/thirds of the french said that no, we are not at war with russia, until thing, this phrase is very often returned in the discourse, we are not at war with russia, although they are talking about

cyber war, everyone is here. interestingly, they admit that russia and france are in a state of such a cyber war, because there are a lot of attacks on french servers and official websites, and the war is already going on, but physically, there should not be a physical war on the ground against russia, against the russians, and france has nothing to do with it, so sending troops in general does not suit the french at all, well, according to the latest polls, at least this idea was not supported, just as it is not supported by other political forces except, perhaps, the conservative right and centrists, who now simply, well, let's say, trivially follow macron in almost everything, because they have such a political consensus, but there is no left or more radical right at all consensus on sending troops, although it will be necessary to watch what is happening now in kharkiv oblast, yes, this is exactly where it will be, probably a test just for emmanuel macron, because he said about... a certain offensive

or a breakthrough of some lines, if it will happen, then it will be worth following his reaction, to what extent, in principle , can we now talk about the fact that france really captures such a leadership in europe, when we talk about supporting ukraine, do you see signs of this? you know, these signs are probably in the words, because it is, after all, macron - this is one of the those leaders who speak about... ukraine in almost, almost every speech, it is very, very symbolic, after all, because france, french presidents, usually when they address their people, if you follow it like this, and sarkozy, hollande and so on, very rarely any information appears in these appeals, about which appeared historically, about international politics, of course, here the context has completely changed, there is a war on the jews.