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espresso in the evening. the verdict with serhii rudenko is now in a new two-hour format, with even more analytics, even more important topics, and even more top guests. foreign experts, inclusion from abroad. about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and feedback. you can express your opinion at the expense of the day using a telephone survey. turn on and turn on. verdict with serhii rudenko. every day on weekdays from 20 to 20. for espresso. he who saves one life saves the whole world. may 14 is the day of remembrance of ukrainians who saved jews during the second world war. dear

friends, we are coming back, as we promised, now we will talk about those ukrainians who risked their lives during the second world war to save jews from the nazis, today, may 14, ukraine honors the memory of such ukrainians, we will talk about them, how many there are, who these people are and what their contribution is. let's first remind ourselves how it was and who defended the jews who were persecuted by the nazis? from 5 to 6 million, that is how many jews, according to various estimates , died during the second world war, only on the territory of ukraine during the german occupation of 1941-1944, more than 1.5 million jews were killed. since 1963, israel has awarded those who saved jews in those years. honorary title righteous man for... the people of the world. this

award is given by a special commission consisting of historians, lawyers and survivors victims of the holocaust. the righteous people of the world are given a name medal, a certificate and the right to inscribe their name on the wall of honor in the garden of the righteous in jerusalem. they will also receive honorary israeli citizenship, and in the event of their death, memorial citizenship. for the first time , ukrainians received this title in 1991. according to the righteous people of the world, our country ranks fourth after poland, the netherlands and france. according to the israeli embassy, ​​january. in 2021, 2,673 citizens of ukraine have such a distinction, but these numbers, as the director of the ukrainian the ihor shchupak institute for the study of the holocaust does not reflect the real picture of the salvation of the jews. stavenyar is one of the main symbols of the holocaust and a mass grave for many jews. in two days, on september 29 and 30 , the germans killed almost 34,000 jews who lived in kyiv. it was impossible to leave the city, so all that remained was to hide. the fighting continued for two years, until the soviet union.

the army did not start moving towards kyiv. over 100,000 people, including jews, roma, ukrainian nationalists, and soviet military the german administration, on pain of death, forbade helping jews in any way, but these prohibitions did not stop ukrainians. they saved jews from the nazis, hid them or passed them off as their relatives, provided temporary shelter, clothing, medicine and food, while at the same time risking not only their own lives, but the lives of their relatives. in order not to forget those whose names are still unknown, a day of remembrance of ukrainians who saved jews during the second world war was introduced in ukraine. for a medal, which the righteous will receive, a phrase from the talmud is written: he who saves one life saves the whole world. ema stetnyk, espresso tv channel. and now we will talk about these people with yosif zisels, public figure, dissident, co-president of vaat of ukraine, executive vice-president of the congress of national communities of ukraine. mr. yosif, welcome to our airwaves. congratulations, mr.

yosif, until the end of the country, ukraine and not only ukraine, knows all those ukrainians who during the second world war. did everything possible to save the life of the jew or chi roma, because not only the jews were persecuted, but the jews to a greater extent, we now see all these stories, when - they are, so to speak, illustrated more, and we have some kind of greater connection with them during this great russian war, when we hear the testimonies of people, how they were there, for example, in some sofas, ukrainian soldiers were taken away. or ukrainian, pro- ukrainian activists who were persecuted by the occupiers, or how people passed off other people as their relatives, and in this way also risked passing through checkpoints, and now we understand what our predecessors could have experienced during the second world war, do

we know all of them now, well , it is impossible to know all of them, because it came... a long time has passed, in soviet times this was not only unpopular, but no one encouraged it, and the state, the security forces of that soviet state, they prevented us from studying this topic, such as the rescue of jews by ukrainians during the second world war. it is unlikely that we will ever be able to get to the bottom of every such person, but... we must do our best to make the most of what perhaps we know the names of the righteous, you named the number, correctly, and this is the number of righteous people from ukraine, it is the fourth in the world,

that is, it says a lot about the people who, even in such conditions, saved a large number. jews, if few people know that, for example, those countries in which jews were also saved, such as france, holland, poland, in france and holland those who tried to save jews were not killed, in ukraine and in poland they were killed, that is, here it was much more difficult, much more risky to save jews than in western europe countries, about this... it should also be remembered that what were the psychological and moral barriers on the way to saving such a family. also, very few ordinary citizens know about those ukrainians who tried to guard the jews and died together with their families and together with

those whom they tried to save. there is such a researcher as zhan kovba, who has been working on this topic for a long time, we have already published it. the book "humanity in the abyss of hell" was republished twice, specifically about such ukrainians. we try to do everything possible. there are organizations, for example, the jewish the confederation of ukraine, which initiated the naming of streets after ukrainian righteous people. it worked in some cities, but not all city councils are on board with such an initiative. this still needs to be done. perhaps it will also be necessary in time, of course, when this damn war is over, to think about making some bas-reliefs, busts, monuments to these people, because this humanitarian component in the life of every nation, it is one of the most important , it must

be passed on to the next generations, because it multiplies goodness, multiplies peace, multiplies humanity in any part of the globe, there... there are such trials, and there are people who, despite threats to life, go and fulfill their human duty. recently, the world celebrated, honored, rather, it is more correct to say, the memory of those who died in the second world war, and russia just celebrated may 9, as the day of victory over nazism, and here... you mentioned that in the soviet union in those times , the soviet authorities did everything in order not to talk about those ukrainians who saved the jews, it sounds strange, because the soviet union allegedly conquered nazism, conquered nazis who exterminated jews, that is, they should , on the contrary, have supported such people, why, why

were the names of these people silenced, why was their feat hushed up? well, there is... perhaps a simple answer, although it means little to many: we belong to different civilizations. as pathetic as it sounds, we belong to different people. with russia of civilization, we have been trying to break away from russia for more than 30 years, well, we dissidents tried to do it even earlier, but ukraine has been formally independent since 1991. so that's why we pull away because we feel it's too much toxic eurasian civilization that brings death, abuse, torture to many peoples around it. and we, since we are trying to realize our european choice, it means that we are trying to live in

a different civilization, where humanity means much more, where it is one of the basic values, one of the cornerstones of that civilization, we will never build with russia in one civilization, i am sure of it, we will do everything possible, and our fighters at the front are doing their best every day taking risks so that ukraine does not return to that terrible civilization that brings death to people, this civilization, in addition to russia, includes north korea, china, iran, that is, those countries that today support russia, help russia in this military conflict, that is, we are the first in history , as i claim , have been in the conditions of an intercivilizational conflict for several years, when an anti-democratic... civilization is fighting a democratic civilization, this is the first time in the world, even

the second world war could not be marked precisely so, because the soviet union was not part of a democratic civilization. thus, i believe that this division between civilizations is forever, we will never be together with the russians. as for the russians, well, when i say russians, i mean it. about the soviet government, soviet times, how much they contributed to making it clear that between ukrainians and jews, the difficult history of relations, there were various, various episodes, but how much the soviet regime contributed to somehow demonizing ukrainians in the eyes of jews, who lived on the territory of ukraine and somehow quarrel, well, this is one of the principles of the seat. divide and rule any empire, of course, the empire sets the peoples

living on its territory to conflict between them, then it is easier for them to rule these peoples, and the russian empire did it, and the soviet union did it, it was not an exception to rules thus, we can say that the soviet union did everything possible so that various representatives of various... ethnic groups on the territory of the empire did not understand each other, did not unite in their common struggle against of the soviet union, and we dissidents felt it well, but despite all the attempts of the soviet union to destroy such natural peace and cooperation between representatives of different dissidents, of different ethnic and religious perceptions, it still worked, because it is an organism. it is in human nature to find like-minded people and unite with them

for a common task, and we in the camps and in prisons felt it well and united for the sake of the struggle of the soviet authorities, of course our forces were small, but still after all, it showed us, indicated the way, that only a combination would give us all freedom and independence, and we lived up to that expectation. did everything they could to make this day come. it came in the 91st year, and, unfortunately, not all of our brothers lived to these days, but many did, i am glad that we still lived to the day when ukraine became independent, became democratic, and already then, national cultures, religions began to develop, all opportunities for self-realization at the ethnic, religious... level were realized, not yet fully realized, but initiated, and the state

did not prevent them from initiating and cultivating them, and we knew it well, and it was from these years that the revival of all national cultures and religious trends began, and work with the righteous people of the people's peace began immediately after the moment of ukraine's independence. we work with... we helped, we worked with our organization, since it was created almost a year before the independence of ukraine, we worked with an american foundation, it was called the jewish fund for... saviors who gave money, and we every three months helped the families of the righteous people of the world, financially, well, you are young, you do not know what difficult years those were financially, economically, but it was difficult to survive then, in this way the jews thanked those families who saved other jews during the second world war, this is a very

good example of how israel decided to perpetuate. these people, i think that in every war there should be a moment when the immortalization of those who were against the war, against the destruction and saved other families at the risk of their lives, eh my peers, i see now how they, for example, who are of jewish origin , ukrainians are from jewish roots, they are only now beginning to talk about it out loud somehow without being ashamed, for example, i read recently. the story of a ukrainian woman who is from the west of ukraine, who had the surname nemtseva, and she found out that this surname was actually invented by her grandparents, and she says that it is such an irony, because it seems that the nazis destroyed them as representatives of the jewish people , and they took a german surname, but what is interesting, they

also took this surname with a russian ending, that is, they did not just want to... as if under the germans, but still under the russians, in fact. it is clear that her grandparents are not the jews who lived in the west of ukraine, because those jews were exterminated here, they are the jews who came after the soviet troops entered the west of ukraine, but no less, jews did not live easily and simply during the soviet union, and it was not possible then. the voice should say: i am of jewish origin, well, no one had a good life, except for officials and the party elite in the soviet union, and i want to say that since the 19th century the process of assimilation, there is artificial assimilation, when the government suppresses any activity, and there is natural assimilation, it is mixed marriages, and

where jews, ukrainians lived next to each other, of course ... mixed marriages, because, as you rightly said, some start to search for his roots, to find them, and he is no longer ashamed of this, and he admits that he has such roots, it is just an interesting combination of different genes, different ethnic cultures, and it means a lot for ukraine, it indirectly reflects that situation, that in ukraine today... are minimal manifestations of anti-semitism, such as now, in the last decades, there has never been such a thing in ukraine, that there were so few manifestations of anti-semitism, this is another factor that shows that independence is right, ukraine needs it, and we cannot avoid it stand back, we can't deny it, we can't cross it out, that's why

so many people today are devoted to this independence, this freedom, and freedom is the main basic... ation of european civilization, and some countries were surprised to see that when this terrible war began , well, the extended phase in the 22nd year, many ukrainians, risking their lives, voluntarily went to war, and this, in my opinion, helped the post office, for the first three months we had no help, because the western countries thought, so what will ukraine do? what will she do, how will she resist, and when they saw that many ukrainians are sacrificing themselves, they felt a certain kinship, i am not talking about economic, other, other factors, there are all these, but for me this is what is important, this sense of kinship , that freedom is important for ukrainians, no less than for europeans,

that is why i have been saying for a long time that i would like, i believe that the future ukraine... will be a country of descendants, righteous people, peoples of the world, and not descendants of those who took part in the destruction of the jews, and such were, we know, we do not turn a blind eye to it, but those who saved the jews are more important to us, and we believe that this is a symbol of today's ukraine. you know, i, by the way, talking about that, you are talking about that, about this very low level of anti-semitism in ukraine, which these lands have probably never seen. obviously, these are common places now talking about our president and so on, i'm talking about something else, if you've watched eurovision, if you have time for such entertainment. i don't have time for that, absolutely, but i was there, but there was a performer from israel there for me, and for me, for me , it is interesting from a professional point of view, because

it is, after all, a very important moment of such an intersection, such a public, of global public relations, and how ukraine, the place we got, it's again, it's a vote of people from all over the world, and there's another country that got a much lower score from the jury for these anal, than there is such a voting system, than from ordinary people who sent sms with the support of this or that performer, this is israel, and the father, so for me this is an interesting vote, an important vote, because we see that today and ukraine and israel look like an outpost, relatively speaking, of western civilization and democracy in the fight against those authoritarian tendencies. in the world, which are used for and for ukraine, by the way, this was a difficult case, because the performer was, performed in the crimea and grew up in russia, yes,

but, but when we could hear, for example, whistling during her speech, about those palestinian or i don't know what to call these people, her speech, then i, for example, felt some kind of pain, as if it was about and of the ukrainian speech, that is... this, this, this, this, this is some new settings, well, this is a long conversation, yes, and on the day when we celebrate the memory of the righteous, i don't think we can go into detail about all topic, if you are interested in the topic of how there has been a very big transformation in international anti-semitism in the last 20 years, please, i am ready for this, but i can point out... that the european vision is not a litmus test of the civilization of certain countries, it is a very small sample of peoples, which

cannot possibly characterize them as a whole, there are many other markers that show the development of these peoples and their settings, i indirectly know about the performance of the israeli singer. i know something, because my youngest daughter is very enthusiastic, she was a big fan of our ukrainian performers and she tells me about it, so this is a very serious conversation, but i want to note that if in some words that in the last 20 years since the beginning of the century, a certain fate has occurred in the world, those forces that were once about

against the jews, against the roma, on the contrary, they become pro, it must be studied, because it is a worldwide phenomenon, few people see it, except for specialists, but it is very interesting, why the world has changed so much, we see it in the united states as well, the speaker congress, johnson initiated an investigation into anti-semitism on college campuses, formerly conservatives, i wouldn't...no, i wouldn't understand if a conservative in the 20th century would have said that the initiative, it got mixed up, the left, the right, these are completely irrelevant concepts, something new

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