even more important topics, even more top guests: foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion on the bad day with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and tune in, verdict with serhii rudenko, every weekday from 20 to 22 at espresso. so, as i promised, oleg shamshur, diplomat, ambassador of ukraine to the united states from the 5th to 10th years, ambassador of ukraine to france from the 14th to the 20th years, appears before me, before you. thank you, mr. oleg, for finding it for us time on saturday i have such a first question for you, i would say speculative. and i

absolutely understand that the answer will be speculative, because none of us took part in the negotiations between ukraine and the united states in kyiv with mr. blinken, but if you listen to the so-called good russians, they thinly or thickly hint that behind the west is exerting some pressure, this is not today, these stories have been going on for months, or even years, to ukraine. in order to bring ukraine and russia to the negotiating table, to start some negotiations, peaceful, and so on, and the like, you believe, i am already here, since i agreed with you to speculate, we cannot know, we can believe it or not, whether you see the signs of it or not, how much such and such a state of affairs, please, mr. oleg, i would say in this way, as a completely theoretical ... the possibility

that such ideas are roaming in the west and are even in the heads of a certain part of western politicians, so did blinken come with this from by this, well obviously i could be wrong because like you rightly said, we haven't sat at the negotiating table, i honestly don't think so, and this idea, as for the pressure, it already has a certain history, and as you can see, it is revived every time the situation on the front escalates, so it in order to take advantage of this situation and spread messages and narratives that are acceptable to the russians, but basically we have to carefully follow...

what we hear and what we see and what ideas are going around in the west, but now, i think blinkin didn't come with this, the main thing, but with what we saw in the public plane that it is to express solidarity with ukraine and to assure that they will be with us as long as it takes, although i personally do not like this formation, we also heard from him. uh , some details about the agreement on security cooperation, i didn't see any surprises here either, in principle, none of the agreements that are concluded or discussed, they do not go beyond the scope of uh, last year's statement of the g7 in vilnius, uh, we have to also pay attention to what he said about corruption, but that is already, as they say, separate conversation, and i hope that there was also a discussion of the issue. related to military

aid, at least that's what we heard. mr. ambassador, continuing the same topic, but you understand, yes, i agree with you that it is necessary to keep a close watch, but what i think sometimes, and obviously this is also speculation on my part, that if the front line is for months, and then and for years the same as now, that is, there is no promotion of non-ukraine. troops on the russian position, non -russian troops on the ukrainian position, sooner or later these questions will arise, west he just asks, well, well, it’s a draw, it’s in this form now, we give you weapons, you don’t like it, which is not enough, but we don’t have any more, we give you money, well, nothing happens, so if can't be solved by military means, let's try diplomatic ones then. some kind of peace negotiations and

so on and the like, just whether it is worth preparing for this, that a problem may arise someday, very difficult, very... well, no, no , i am grateful to explain to my own population and explain to the west and explain clarify in themselves the americans to the ukrainians and the french to the germans, that so-and-so grief has happened and we will now live like north and south korea, two ukraines, or like the gdr and the frg. please, mr. oleg. i will try to give such a multi-layered answer. first. any aggravation and deterioration of the main situation, not even just the status quo, for ukraine, of course, it is such a negative catalyst that er contributes to the intensification of these conversations, this is, firstly, secondly,

theoretically, what you said that it is impossible to exclude, that is, all possibilities must be excluded consider. and i heard more than once from my former colleagues and from experts that we will support ukraine until the end, but they say, at the same time, we do not know how this war will end, to some extent this is the answer to your question. the third point, i.e., it is necessary to calculate it, but it is also necessary to understand, and i hope that our partners understand. if the russian military machine is not destroyed, if russia is not deprived of the opportunity to terrorize ukraine, its neighbors, europe and the world, then this is a direct path to war again a pan-european institution, and this will

be repeated in two or three years, or in 12, it seems, the russian counted this cycle, that is, here, and we have already talked about it, strategic determination from the united states and our partners, it is still not there. oh, this is my next question then, you see, excuse me, i myself do not like when one thing leads to another, and then the whole agenda of my program today is simply destroyed, but you tell an interesting story, mr. ambassador, but here you are telling it there is no such understanding, and there may be some... the proposed efforts so that this understanding appears, so that ukraine does not go to war once every two, 3.4 years, or once every 10-12 years, then it is necessary to simply not stop this sanctions pressure, simply see, my version is this, to make russia poor and incapable of any aggression, simply

leave all these sanctions, everything that is happening now can be strengthened somewhere, and just then in russia. will not be able to start their aggression again, this is an absolutely essential point, that is, it is necessary, well, unfortunately, with all the scope and depth of sanctions, really they are to a certain extent unprecedented, compared to those that were applied before, in principle, all the same, the sanctions remind me of the one known to all of us from the soviet union. times swiss cheese or dutch cheese with holes, that is, there are too many exceptions, there are too many opportunities to circumvent these sanctions, and until the moment that these sanctions really are, as to some extent

, it is such a devil's press that will be with every time to make the situation in the russian economy worse and worse. it will remain so swiss cheese with holes, will allow russia to stay afloat, but we also have to be realistic here, because as long as russia is supported by china, the russian economy has every chance to stay afloat and circumvent sanctions with the help of china and our strategic partners such as turkey and turkey and others, okay, then, then. let's move on to another topic, this is already a purely diplomatic topic, the european union and the united states are somehow not satisfied, to put it mildly, with the fact that macron invited the russians to the anniversary of the landing in normandy in the 44th year at the beginning

it happened in june, all educated people know about it, then i have a question: the level of the delegation, i am absolutely convinced that putin himself will not... come, because he is afraid, he, he did not even dare to go to turkey to fly, but then who can come, the prime minister, that is, what is the diplomatic... ranking here, who can come, who can be invited, is this such an arbitrary invitation, send anyone, we will accept anyone, or there it is written, only without these and these, and the rest of these are possible, please, i would say in this way that the level delegation, i am concerned that the least, the most important thing is that, in fact, i believe that the invitation of russia to normandy by... macron is a serious mistake, one might even say a political mistake. we thought that after the statements in

february, he abandoned the idea of ​​france as a force, equilibrium, balance, which talks to everyone, and realized that you can't talk to russia, you have to act hard with it, and again we see this french swing. which i have, this decision was made and now france, frankly, the french leadership regrets that it is this invitation sent, but already, as you understand, it is difficult to unscrew, and i think, knowing macron, that it was his personal decision, and this, but this decision is completely wrong, no matter who comes from russia, russia has absolutely nothing to do in normal

this version of systemic uncertainty, always uncertainty - this was a characteristic of russia, and now, as if macron has taken over from russia, he is starting to act in the same way as russia. on the one hand, we will send troops to ukraine, we will defend nato with nuclear weapons, but to normandy you can come, and this determination is neither left nor right nor from above nor from the valley, it can just spoil. putin's understanding of what is happening in that europe? your version?

you will forgive me for such an undiplomatic expression, but i think that such logic is complete nonsense, because if we talk about strategic uncertainty in the sense that macron understands it, then all the cards should be on the table and russia should be shaking out of fear that... that the west could use anything, including, as he said, force military units, but, as i have already said, it is too late, it should have been dealt with in the following days after a large-scale aggression. now putin has heard too many things that assure him that nato troops will never be on the territory of... ukraine and ukraine will fight alone, so it's too late.

thank you very much, just the opposite. your point of view has been heard, we will move forward. oleg shamshur was with us, a diplomat, the ambassador of ukraine to the united states and the ambassador of ukraine to france at the beginning of this year century now there will be an advertisement, then we will talk about... the caucasus, but now a four-minute advertisement still greets you. when you sleep on an uneven surface, the spine takes the wrong position, because you cannot feel energetic in the morning and productive in the afternoon. and with toper matryk, you will forget that you are sleeping on an imperfect surface. order topper matryk for comfortable sleep at an affordable price. more and more ukrainian. which comes in a convenient packaging that is easy enough to remove.

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to pick up a wounded person in time from... for battle, it means saving his life, bc ride, boys ride, quad bike - this is the way from zero to our life. at this stage of the war atv is the best solution for evacuating injured soldiers. we invite everyone to join us in collecting from zero to life on atvs for the 93rd kholodny yar brigade in the direction of chasiv yar. so, the caucasus, you see, the flags are behind my back, there are georgian flags there, and there will also be avermen, azerbaijani, caucasus flags.

volodymyr kobchak, head of the south caucasian branch of the center. of army conversion and disarmament research from tbilisi, greetings, good health, mr. volodymyr, thank you for finding time for us to talk about what is happening in the caucasus, and what would you say, first of all, about georgia, as far as, when i talk to opposition georgians, they say, no, we will win, sooner or later, the nation is behind us, everything is fine, but that's not it.. .less russian laws are adopted and voted on, and the veto can be overcome, to what extent are pro-european forces in georgia today, or are they generally stronger than anti-european forces. please. my greetings, dear viewers,

congratulations, dear colleagues. point one, at the time of our conversation, the confrontation in georgia, in my opinion. is developing as planned, a few minutes ago, maybe an hour or so, the president of georgia soloma zorobishvili vetoed it, this is an absolutely planned process, and you are absolutely right to point out, you pointed out, against the background of protests, this veto will be overcome unequivocally, there are no other options here, but regarding theses of your georgian friends, i agree with them globally, partly not so much, why... globally, because the society is absolutely pro-european, the society has drawn red lines against the authorities in the form of a protest, at least they look like non-acceptance of this russian law, one. so the political forces, the opposition forces that can lead, string on this project, now look very, very insecure in georgia, i emphasize that this

is currently at this stage both the strength and the weakness of the protest, because if it were politicized, if he had been initiated in that state by the opposition forces we have now in georgia, he would not have taken off. the weakness is that sooner or later we have to build a superstructure on the protest, if we we want, these are all conscious georgians in one dimension or another, we want to achieve a normal goal, to prevent georgia from slipping into the ussr 2.0, into the russian swamp and so on, but with this , at the moment, i see that there are problems, the most workable option for confrontation is step by step it will flow into the pre-election logic, for october, let me remind you, scheduled... planned, basic, parliamentary elections, there should be a vote on october 27, that's how i see this process now, well, that's roughly what they say, and i apologize, and

these oppositionists, they say, what will this one be? veto, then another, then some other filing to some, or to the constitutional court or somewhere, and just at the beginning of the election campaign it will all start to develop even more intensively, but then the question, sir? will the people come out, if the people are against it, and we are talking now about hot georgian guys, and if they come out not 10 thousand and not 100 00, but relatively speaking half a million, then the government will not go anywhere, this is the problem of the government then, it won't be a problem of people who just delegated, because the government doesn't listen, well there are no options, then you have to delegate people. to put pressure on the authorities on the street and through the street, and not through some legislation. how willing are people to get out now? exit, exit,

exit, people are ready, and i fully support the logic outlined by you, why? because the georgian authorities, by their actions, actually passed this draft law for the second time, pushed through it, and attempted to intimidate activists. protest, other layers of protest, she did everything with her own hands so that at the time of voting on october 27, she would have to falsify these elections, because they plan to stay in power, who opposed them in the opposition, let's say, superstructure of the protest did not come forward, they will have to falsify these elections, and it is already considered whether someone hopes or not, but it is absolutely real. and the logical development of events, that processes, people are coming out, people are ready is coming out today, and they will come out constantly, people are ready to transform, already, in my

opinion, the mass, let's say, metaphysical, is ready to transform from demands to cancel this process to replace this pro-russian authorities, we here in georgia we are clearly moving towards this, another moment, what will be the political opposition superstructure, you understand, well, even though i have certain, let's say, being indirectly inside the processes, i cannot now formulate what will be, let's say, the opposition wing, as it will look at the moment of confrontation already during the elections, and this is the fundamental difference between the protest, for example, in georgia in 2003 and the ukrainian maidans of the fourth and 13th, 14th years. we have an opposition, despite, let's say, an ambiguous attitude towards different people after it was quite clear, consolidated. especially compared to the georgian realities that the government is offering sweets, you and i were talking about the ax, yes oppression,

persecution, the police, gas stations, these gas stations and so on and so on, well, i understand, i was in georgia twice during various revolutionary and military circumstances, georgians can take up arms, while they are not engaged, but in... the authorities, well, as i imagine, must have some tricks, yes, we have an ax, we threaten you, but, if you behave well we have candy candy in the form of something, friendship with russia, there will be huge russian investments, no one believes all this anymore, and middle asia, central asia, i'm sorry, and the caucasus, in short, everyone is running away from russia, and here, then, it must be somehow... . to smile in the direction of russia, if the russian law is adopted, please, mr. volodymyr, well, point one, central central asia is not running away from russia, time, point two

- the remnants in the form of the two countries of azerbaijan and armenia are not running away from the russian federation. , no matter how much we would like it, this is a separate topic conversations point three, all the sweets that the current georgian government has for the rebels for the people, they will not be tasty, they are no longer tasty, it is clear, they will not take off, they are now trying to include an element of bargaining, elements of some kind of construction, as with western partners, already you can say in lacs, and with... with society, we are talking about the fact that now, after the veto, we may make some amendments, let's listen, they invited up to 10 leaders of a fundamentally youth protest, without not being able to calculate, let's say, orga organizational core, or having some hints, who is going there, they want to calculate it, then neutralize it, this is what they are doing, but it will not take off, i will give a single example, for example, between the first and

the second ... reading, they did such a thing in tihar point, made a change in this draft law, in relation to which not only natural persons, not only legal entities, but also natural persons should provide their various data. for failure to provide certain data, there is a fine of 5 00 lari - it is 75 00 hryvnias for comparison, so that you understand with georgian salaries and so on, i'm sorry, sir volodymyr, please forgive me. from those who wanted to hear more about armenia, but the situation is such that i, i have no way out, i will talk about georgia, that's right, well, i said at the beginning, i'm diluting my hardware here, that i will talk about armenia and about azerbaijan, well, it didn’t work out that way, less so, you, the picture you paint is a picture of the eve of the civil war, because if

the government doesn’t... make concessions, but the people want, the government has stood its ground, and we, we don’t under all conditions , we will not go anywhere, we will falsify this means that the government is taking big steps towards a civil war, what do you say, i would not thicken the paint before the civil war, after all, i would wait for the political superstructure, but i completely agree with your logic, that the government started this very process , in order to... or to pass against the background of this confrontation and to win, i did not finish my short speech there about some goodies that the authorities can provide to georgia, now there is such a reference topic in georgia that as i, for example, believe that if the authorities will manage to pass this one law, to remain in power after the elections, let's say, society will remain in some stable aggregate state against this background, against the background of protests, there is candy from the russian side.

this is the so-called restoration of the territorial integrity of georgia at the expense of abkhazia and the so-called south ossetia in some confederal or federative format, when the eu and nato refused, and such candies arise , and it seems to be georgian society should perceive it as such a gift and constructively balanced in the current realities. uh, let's say this, the policy of the grizyna dream of restoring territorial integrity, i have my opinion, we understood the logic, yes, it's interesting, yes, yes, we, we, the russians return the territory to you at the confederation stage, and you do not go to europe, of course . volodymyr kobchak, head of the south caucasian branch of the army, conversion and disarmament research center, informed us from tbilisi about what he expects and what

georgia can expect. now. let's make a small one a break, and then we will definitely come back and talk about china first of all. how many percent of oil refining capacity. lost the russian federation due to drone attacks on oil refineries, an attack on a representative of the tsk in dnipropetrovsk oblast , and how our border guards exposed a subversive group of muscovites in vovchansk. the news editors talk about the important things of the day today. annavamelnik is with you. congratulations. five people were injured due to the russian attack on kharkiv, among them two children,