and constantly involve these people in some kind of actions, that is, we need to start work on building such an international network, if russia builds on money, on propaganda, on some kind of other signal, that now we will take care of those ukrainians who are abroad, maybe it's not a struggle for mobilization for justice, it's just a different, different, different struggle , well, it should have some real mechanism in any case. implementation, it seems that these are different conflicting signals, and it is difficult for me to understand what our public policy is regarding mobilization. again, i'm not a military expert, i can only look at it from a human rights perspective, but going back to your question, it seems to me that despite all that, a huge number of people abroad understand that this is a war for survival and feel their responsibility to ensure that their state...survives, even while

they are safe abroad, they are doing something. in every state, i meet such people who tell me how many charity actions they have done, how they themselves carried something, how they spend some kind of informational work, these people should become more, not less, and this means that they should conduct campaigns to involve other people in this work, and not only rely solely on their own strength. we have already used the word survival several times. in our conversation, and here is an important point, that we had the impression, at least after the maidan of 2013-14, that we are moving from this civilization of survival, which existed on the territory of ukraine, one might say, for the entire 20th, 20th, 20th century to such values ​​of the civilized world, which are absolutely there a different attitude to human life, demand solidarity, mutual understanding, respect for... the state and

respect for the state for the person, and now we again, it is logical, after the beginning of this great war , moved to the value of survival, as far as it generally affects the human rights and on the perspective of general perception of human rights by the citizens themselves as a value? it affects a lot, because war is poison, war is poison not only for ukrainian society, for any society, in my time, studying in tenfer at the university specifically took a course on... us and on international settlement in order to understand these patterns and be prepared for what awaits us, both during the war and after the war ends, however it ends, and it is quite difficult to maintain this framework of freedom and democracy, human rights, when the instincts of survival come to the fore, and this is understandable, this is ... there is no

fault, this, this is just a context in which a responsible person has to rely even more on self-reflection, and just every day, making a thousand decisions, it is difficult to remember what we are fighting for, but what gives me optimism is that when you open any research for all these years regarding ukrainians and values. that is, in the hierarchy of values, ukrainians always put freedom first, the perception of freedom, it generally implies a duty, but right here it is important to understand whether freedom is a tool for building a civilized country, or freedom is an element for an anarchic self-perception and the state and oneself in the state, this is a very correct question, because freedom and will, you know, it's so obvious, and different categories, it's the same as someone told me that... we were all on the maidan, but

everyone stood on the maidan for their own, well, that is, for their own idea, and this the truth, it is the truth, needs an even deeper study, because if for me freedom is the opportunity to take responsibility for my actions, that is , for me, responsibility and freedom are equivalent concepts, that is, i do not transfer responsibility for my life to someone else, i can do it myself, i have the freedom to take responsibility for it, then for someone else freedom i... for example, is often used to explain to western societies the problems that occur in them, i say, it is the ability to choose between different cheeses in the supermarket, that is freedom, freedom of choice, i just went to the supermarket, chose different cheeses, that i'm a free person, i can choose my own cheeses, and that's how i see it, well, that's how freedom was perceived in soviet society, there weren't several types of cheese, and those who have access to products were considered free, obviously, but now western societies, which are absolute.. .

don't know what it's like not to have a choice of cheese, see freedom, that's how it is as a requirement for the state to secure their comfort zone, and that's why it's so difficult now and... the explanation, this is me again linking to our situation, that if ukraine does not stop russia, then russia will go further, and they will forced to step out of their comfort zone, and all this help that we will receive, and for which we are certainly grateful, because nothing is guaranteed in the world, no one is obliged to provide this help, but it is not just help, it is an investment in their own safety, well, it is also important here... for us to understand how to prevent the degradation of this understanding of freedom in society, because you know, i remember very well the russian society of the 90s there , and by and large, at least in the big cities that were the centers of the country there, such as moscow or st. petersburg, the level of this freedom and responsibility for many

people was much higher than in ukrainian society, then we saw hundreds of thousands of rallies there in defense of free lithuania, or people even went to demonstrations against... the war in chechnya, and there was a huge number of people who voted for liberal political forces, it was not the majority, maybe, but it was millions of people all over the country, and now these people are simply gone, we even now see from sociological polls there that the majority of russians would generally like for the country to be communist, their number grows every year, sympathies for stalin grow every year, that is, from the society that i observed as a society that... seems to gravitate towards freedom, only memories remain, it is possible to write memoirs, but and the poor rights activists, by the way, now to mention, who in fact put their whole lives into making this society the way they dreamed of it and made compromises with the authorities,

do you remember lyudmila alexieva, nothing came of it, just nothing at all, this is a very important point for me, how can we prevent such opportunities here, i don’t have a simple answer, but i will try to tell my vision: this is how society can really become rigid very quickly, because what i see and observe in russian society , this is rapid barbarization, then this entire thin layer of culture in the form of dostoevsky's ballet and so on, it, it simply overlaps with these patterns of behavior that we see on the ukrainian territory, which were forcibly brought here by the russian military, if for someone russian culture. this is conditional tchaikovsky, perhaps with his ukrainian roots, then for me it is budcha, this is russian culture, this is what we saw there, these dead bodies, people lying on the streets, with their hands often tied behind their backs, until the moment their liberation, this is russian

culture for me, well, german culture during the second world war was auschwitz and babeniar, absolutely, and here there is a difference between german and russian culture, but your question was not about that, so i will answer it first.. i will answer: the responsibility lies with the people who understand the threat, with the ukrainian intelligentsia, with the ukrainian civil society, because the minority determines the vector in which the country will move and develop, and therefore it is important that this minority be organized so that it articulates its message and for it to speak in different languages ​​about the same thing, that even in a genocidal war of extermination, we... we have to remember that we are fighting to remain a free society, and that is a two-fold challenge, and that this the war did not start in february 22nd, as the world thinks, in february 14th, when we first got a chance to build such a free society, well, at the same time

, the attitude of the state and society towards this particular person is also very important, you understand, something we haven't seen very often by and large, even with 200 there 14 year, when it came to forced resettlement. even not only from the side of the state, but also from the side of society, do you remember those suspicious views of people who were forced to leave crimea and donbas because they did not want to live under occupation, well, we as a society need to grow up rapidly, and for me, one of the signs of growing up is self-reflection, it's when you don't just feel your emotions and think that you have the right to do whatever you want because you're lost... in anger or something, but when you try them rationalize like an adult, and so do you you have a right to all emotions, but even with all these emotions that we all feel during war, you have to make balanced decisions that have a positive effect not only in

the short term, but in the long term. i never mention it in the international arena, but i always remind it at meetings with the ukrainian audience. the war in syria started a long time ago, and the ukrainians, they too, were not the type to fall asleep thinking about the poor syrians. woke up with the thought of productive syrians, it's me besides, when we talk about indifference world, then you have to remember yourself, and i also remember, since i have been involved in human rights protection since 2007, about a huge scandal, when the question of building a shelter for syrian adults was simply discussed in ukraine, and the ukrainians, well, the people in this area said: no- no, no, we don't want anyone, eh, and i won't be surprised that some of these people may also become refugees. and received a warm shelter in other countries, which we once refused to the same people who fled

from war. therefore, self-reflection is a very important ability of adult society. you you see, frankly, not every person is capable of self-reflection, a lot of it depends on public policy, frankly, again, and on the media, because asking every person to engage in self-reflection, or in a period of, you know, survival. when you need to solve a million problems at once, when money becomes less, and children need to be fed to school, to drive, to a husband who is in the army, to collect help for this husband himself to fight or work too hard to feed the family in the changing economic conditions , that's it again about survival, yes, that's why we won't be able to tell everyone, you have to, you know, reflect, understand the situation, it depends on how much the state... society is able to respond to the challenge, you know, i'm just not demanding, i'm reminding, and i speak and act and

always act based on the fact that i do not transfer my responsibility to the state, i am not a civil servant, i am not a politician, and i have great respect for the work of journalists, i understand the role of the media in a free society, but i also know that people have a lot of power and i appeal to people with a reminder that this... must be done and who is capable of it, even in the conditions of those that have developed, when, when the truth is that society is sick, when society is tired, when we go to bed and do not know, what awaits us in the morning, and the first thing we do is check, and what happened during the night, because even if your city in kyiv was not shelled, yes, this does not mean that other cities were not affected that night, even in such i will remind you of the conditions. that we have in front of ourselves, not in front of anyone, but in front of ourselves,

this is such a moral, i would say, obligation to reflect on this situation as much as it seems possible to us, well, people always perceive the protection of human rights and responsibility for crimes against humanity as some kind of effective tool, do you remember the one that was in ukraine, one might say, even rejoiced when an order was issued for... well, this is important, i can explain, it is important not only from the point of view of law, in the long term, if putin lives, yes, then the hague awaits him in the sense, that authoritarian regimes fall and their self-styled leaders inviolable, end up in court, we have, not all, but not all, but we have examples, we have examples of milosevic, whom serbia did not want to hand over to the hague, but serbia was forced to, that is... we don't know what the future will be, but with this warrant we are trying to construct the version of the future that

we need, but even in the short term it is super important, and here it is not even legal consequences, but other consequences that matter. i travel a lot now to different countries of the world, i meet with presidents and members government, with parliamentarians, journalists, there with different audiences, and i know and everyone in ukraine knows that there are politicians, even in the western world and... not only orban, who would like to return to the so-called business as usual with russia , and here is this legal decision, this order for arrest, it puts a barrier for them, because maybe orbán can shake putin's hand in beijing, but already a person who declares his commitment to democracy and whose voters follow this, well, he already understands that if he will shake hands with the largest in the world's child abductor, well... he will lose his career in this society, that is, there are still such short-term consequences that are

super important for us. and tell me, hatred for putin is absolutely understandable, but in principle, one way or another , during the war, society lives in this category of hatred, there is no other way. you yourself mentioned about buja, what kind of emotions it arouses in people, it arouses hatred for those who did it, for the country, for the citizens of this country who are capable of this. not to notice, and here's how to get out of it hatred, this is also an important thing, do you remember how during the second world war there was a famous article by ilya orenburg, kill a german, ugh, and... at the end of the war, even the soviet leadership forced them to try to move away from this article and then never republished, i read this article in the orenburg collection published in 1942, after 1945 it was already impossible to see it anywhere. it seems to me that when you are on the battlefield, this

thinking is biphasic, that is, which... very much has only two colors, black and white, it is necessary, because you are trying to survive, because on polyboy, if you don't quickly figure out where your enemy is, well, they'll just kill you, so when you see that a russian soldier is coming at you, you're not you, you don't have the luxury of thinking, maybe he's fooled by russian propaganda, or maybe he has three children, or maybe he is a good person and an outstanding musician, well, if you think so, then he will kill you, because this is a battlefield, and this logic is there... justified, and a lot of things that are justified on battlefield, it cannot be automatically transferred to the rear, because hatred is a very complex feeling, like an emotion that needs an outlet, you ask me what to do with it, well, i am not a psychologist, it is difficult for me to answer this professionally, i know only two things,

the first is that the same commander-in-chief of the upa, roman shukhevych said that we fight... not because we hate those who are in front of us, but because we love those who are behind us, and the second thing is that i already see how this hatred is in the rear, how people who cannot reach the russians, they are not on the battlefield, they begin to vent to those they can reach, that is, to themselves, and i i can already see how this hatred, which is being cultivated, is fragmenting ukrainian society, and it seems to me that we are in the rear, if we are not in the trenches, we need to treat each other more gently, because everyone is sick, everyone is tired, you are not you see how the war was fought with a person, and how your word can hit that person, instead we watch in social networks, well, not just a parade of these aggressive comments, but very dangerous trends that can tear apart

the social organism, and this, when you look sometimes , as on... fall on the last one the case was the paramedic kateryna na pseudo-bird, who survived in azovstalia, went through captivity and then they began to scold her there that she did not look like what people wanted her to look like, she wrote a post that she was scolded for her weight, and you just think, lord, we don't need putin either, what are you doing, get rid of them. at the same time, it is very important to understand how fundamentally this is social, i would say, disappointment, just disappointment in a long war, people simply did not expect that it would last so long, they somehow are disappointed that they are forced to live with a long war, even if they understand

its inevitability, how it will be reflected in the post-war period, you said at the beginning of the war that... for you, victory is not just the restoration of territorial integrity, but also the completion of democratic transformation state, but now there is such an uncomfortable question: will it be possible to do all this, to complete the democratic transformation, to create a real society of united people in the conditions, if we do not succeed for a long time to restore this territorial integrity, so we will be forced to do it in the conditions that exist, because we cannot predict the future, but the future is also nobody's. not written in advance, it means that our generation must do everything dependent and carry out these democratic transformations, so that the next generation, if we do not succeed in restoring the territorial integrity of the borders of 91, it will be easier to do it, we must look and play for the long term, to build long strategies, and what war does, it narrows that horizon, that's why

that we can't plan the next months, we can't plan the week, we can't plan for our day, we don't understand. what will happen and when, and this ambition for a long strategy is also a resistance, because we say that whatever happens, we know that one day we will restore it, one day we will return to these borders, and now we are taking certain intermediate steps , i will give an example so that it does not sound abstract: i am a pupil of ukrainian dissidents, yevgeny sverstyuk played many of my personal roles in fate, he is a philosopher, writer, prisoner of soviet political camps. i read a lot of memoirs of ukrainian and russian dissidents, and thought about this question, because from the point of view of the short-term perspective, well, they looked. like those who lost, because the movement was crushed, some people were killed, some people ended up in the soviets, there was no mass

support, there was no mass support, fortunes were destroyed, families were divided, so in the short term they lost, but now we, in 2024, we know that we regained our independence in the 90s only because in the 60s this group of people fought therefore, this is laying down a long strategy and sowing seeds that will germinate, well , this is super important, but what should come first, an efficient state or an efficient society in such a situation, or is it not necessary to distinguish? i think that an effective society is interested in an effective state, well, we can’t pay three times, but we can’t, but now a lot of things in the army are still covered by volunteer things, we have grown up with...

heavy heavy mechanics, although in fact it would have make an efficient state for our taxes, and now they are already buying some obviously unrealistic ones, so what am i leading to, that paying three times is not unreasonable, we are now doing it temporarily, an effective society. is very interested in the fact that the state becomes efficient, so that we start paying once, but already, you know, to be exactly on target. thank you, mrs. oleksandra, our interlocutor was human rights activist oleksandra matviychuk. thank you to everyone who was with us on this broadcast, which vitaly portnikov conducted for you, i wish you all the best, friends, victory and peace. join the ranks of the hundredth separate mechanized unit armed forces brigades. protect yours. the result of their work is our safety. they, the boys

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people were arrested because of this. all strata of the ukrainian population, from the scientific and creative intelligentsia to the peasants, were terrorized, a huge number of them were shot, we honor their memory with a minute of silence.