now we will show that the state border service published a video today of men who, according to the border guards , planned to cross the state border illegally. they were detained in the chernivtsi region 20 m from the border with romania. the organizer of the scheme, again, according to the border guards, was among the detainees and for his services he received 7 thousand dollars from each man. similar news in ukraine appear literally every day. this is odeshchyna - may 19. border guards report the detention of the 11th. men trying to cross border with moldova. also on may 19, but this is already transcarpathia, border guards report the detention of seven men who were traveling in a minibus in the direction of the ukrainian-romanian border, bypassing checkpoints . they allegedly planned to get to romania. and this is already may 20. border guards detained a man who was planning to cross the tisza. yew is a separate story altogether. we will probably make a separate issue about it. but listen to what the border guards say.

there were also such possibly curious cases when violators, either on their own, or for the assistance of those persons who promised to help them in illegally crossing the border, they equipped themselves with inflatable boats, inflatable circles, inflatable armbands in the form of ducks, or they are equipped with wetsuits, so news about fugitive men, as i have already said, appears in ukraine almost every day. obviously, not everyone is detained, as we can now see on the footage, and many men cross the border like this. for example, according to romanian border police, after the start of a full-scale russian invasion, about 11,000 ukrainian men illegally crossed the border with romania, and this is only romania, and it is an exclusively illegal border crossing, and there are also, so to speak, legal loopholes, well, for example, the road system, through which drivers can leave if they are transporting humanitarian aid or cargo for needs. bzu so, in march, journalists

of ngl media published an article in which they stated that they had found hundreds of public organizations and charitable foundations involved in the escape of more than 2,000 men of pre-winter age who left through the way for permits from lviv ova and did not return. at that time, according to journalists, such a service, so to speak, cost from three to $500 per person on the black market. how many ukrainian men, both legally and illegally, went abroad and did not... return, officially ukraine does not announce such statistics, and in fact it is not known whether the state has such statistics. just a couple of days ago , the advisor of the president's office, mykhailo podolyak, was on our air, and he claimed that there are statistics, but they are not announced. well, according to eurostat, this the official statistical body of the european union, after the full-scale russian invasion, more than 800,000 men, ukrainian men of conscription age left abroad, some of them illegally, probably the absolute majority of men... are running away from the war, they do not

want to fight, this is a bitter fact for the state, which will wage a war for its existence, some are fleeing at the real risk of their lives, the bodies of 31 drowned people were found in the yew tree i mentioned, these are official data, is there a way out of this situation, we want to talk about this today an extremely complex topic, gennadiy druzenko, a lawyer and public activist, co-founder and head of the first voluntary mobile hospital named after mykola pirogov, joins our broadcast. congratulations. good day. gennady, here is such a simple general question. explain to me how it happens that, on the one hand, the army and the armed forces have the highest trust rating in the country. on the other hand, people are running away en masse from the army, from subpoenas, and including fleeing abroad, sometimes even risking their lives. do you have an answer to this question? i think, that these things, on the contrary, are interconnected, that is, this faith in the armed forces, sad or glorious, of course. this

is an attempt to delegate, or shift responsibility onto the shoulders of those who wear uniform today, respectively, let the armed forces protect us, let them heroically fight against the russian aggressors, and i will take advantage of this, sit in the rear, or if there is a danger of getting into the armed forces forces, or shall we say more broadly to the defense forces, because it is fighting not only with the ssu, but also with the nsu, the sbu. the state border service, respectively, then i will try to escape, but here there is something other than an objective one component, because during any wars there were those who were called deserters, evasions, but also, unfortunately, communication and the authorities, first of all the authorities, and certain methods are absolutely legitimate, such, i would say, russian, with which people are taken away to the army, they too...

contribute, the other thing is that the russians are already great masters here, and they help stir up a whole event from each case, so it is obviously very difficult to fight with the first one. if we are not ready to shoot there, although there was already such a case recently, for those who is trying to cross the border, but with the second one , it is that the subordinates are in power, because, i always remember, it is very unfortunate that from a country where there were endless queues at military bases, in two years we have turned into a country where such arrests just happen, almost wild hunts for mobilized or for those who have... to replenish the army, i will say from my experience at the front, all these people who are dragged into the busik by force, well, it is just trouble for any commander, and i don't know why do, that is, you mean that there is a question, how valuable is the warrior who wants

run away from the army or something, he is not just worthless, he creates a whole lot of trouble, that is, in addition to this man, there is someone else who is ready to fight, obviously he will be busy first with issuing his... refusal to comply with the combat order, then obviously he will be searched if he zch will go, the so-called arbitrarily abandoning the part, that is, if we are not ready, thank god, not ready to set up blocking units, all these tricks with such violent mobilization, that is, when people are simply physically twisted and thrown, well, it’s naviskamat of course or tsk put tick that they mobi. throw another person, but such a fighter will be more trouble than good, but you yourself remembered the time when, at the beginning of the full-scale invasion, men returned to ukraine, there, it seems, only in the first weeks there were 140 men, but then there were more , and stood up for the defense of the state, now

thousands of men, on the contrary, are fleeing from here, please tell me, and from your point of view, was there any turning point when the situation somehow started? to develop, well, as if a little in the opposite direction, or is it very natural history, and sooner or later we should observe this process anyway? the first turning point was the summer of the 22nd year, when we drove away the invaders from kyiv region, sumy region, chernihiv region, then at the beginning of autumn we expelled them, actually expelled them from karkiv region, and the feeling disappeared that... we came directly to your home, the war is again became far away, somewhere in the south and east, and on the other hand , the turning point was the 23rd year, when our unsuccessful counteroffensive was quite widely covered in the press, as

we paid for literally square meters and sometimes kilometers there, probably thousands wounded, maimed and killed by the hundreds, and this has also left its mark in the information society, i myself, unfortunately, know many stories when people were not prepared at all, they simply threw fifty-year -old children with such a subcentenary weight into the assaults without a bulletproof vest, and this is also a bitter truth, that is, you understand, in addition to the fact that we live in the age of social networks and the internet, when everyone has a mobile phone with them, there is a joker on the radio, every fighter, even who does not have a facebook profile, is '. there are relatives and friends with whom he communicates, and this word-of-mouth radio spreads, that combat commanders do not always use soldiers in the most careful and effective way, and this also had its share, but i repeat, this is not no, well, you are not a bad excuse for dodgers, but advice for

the state on how to improve its policy, well, actually about the state, maybe this is a false assumption, my assumption, but it looks like the state prefers not to see. this problem with fugitives, men are caught, they are fined, they are filmed, their faces are covered, at some point it is even there, sometimes it looks comical when they disguise themselves as women there, but if we talk about some kind of global solution to this problem, and this, and whether there is any solution at all to solve this problem and what it might consist of, well, it can only consist of an agreement, well, or we put it as in the soviet union, which is still wonderful. i remember there the barbed wire and machine gun turrets that just shoot at targets, then of course, then we are not a european state, then it turns out, you know, well, then we become very similar, you asked in what ways, yes, we become very similar to russia, but again, it is unfortunate, but we admit

that there is no forced mobilization in russia now, that is, it works faster than a stick, and on the other hand, with those... we need to negotiate if we want to be, as you said, a european state , we need to negotiate with our western partners, because they accept these fugitives, which means they recognize them as legitimate. illegal crossing of the border, and i do not know of cases when these evaders were returned to ukraine, and this is again a matter of our diplomacy, because you just called figure, how many ukrainian men illegally found themselves in romania, 11,000 crossed the border to romania alone. well, i give my head to the youth that even 10 thousand of them were not extruded back to ukraine. so, this is a question for the authorities, first of all for our ministry of foreign affairs, for diplomacy, and why those who are considered

illegal fugitives in our country, they are considered refugees, or persons who need special protection there in the european union, that is, this issue must be agreed, because some here the puzzles don't fit together, and how to coordinate, i just didn't fully understand, really give requests for extradition, it’s simple, it’s just going to be a huge number of such people... but eurostat says there are about 800 thousand, but it seems that without great britain, without the united states, there are people who left there for the first time, especially during the weeks of the war , well, legally, that is, they crossed the border, that’s all of them together, i’m talking about those who today are completely illegal, that is , who, relatively speaking, do not have passport control, and do you think the state knows them by name, is it possible to track it, no, well, look, of course you can, it's an exchange. data between the border services, the border guards know each other very well, that is, inside and out, and once a month, relatively

speaking, they check the list of those, this is an electronic database, it is not necessary to raise a finger, and we can absolutely see how many people have appeared there in romania, in poland, i don't know, in moldova, and they didn't pass the border control in ukraine, here are those who crossed the border illegally, if they wish, that is, with assistance. our partners, it is done quite simply, that is, especially since again, that is, you appealed according to the data of the romanian law enforcement officers, that 11,000 illegally crossed the border, that is, they know about it, so it is necessary to agree that this illegality is also recognized as illegality, that is, such men are simply put in a bus and returned, transported to the checkpoint and handed over to the ukrainian side, for some reason this ... happens and it naturally encourages people, because there is such a very cynical proverb, there is a way out of prison,

but not out of the grave, here we do not even have criminal liability for illegal border crossing, only administrative well, you described the scenario that could happen if other states were to be involved so that they would return the men there, and what can ukraine do, or can it do anything at all, so that the men don't just run away like that... brutal, well, well , realistically, some of them risk their lives, they die in the mountains, they die in the rivers, but they still prefer to take a risk and run away. look, there is, in fact, such a cynical approach, but sometimes cynicism can be considered a healthy pragmatism, these people are paying now from 5,000, but you have sounded the numbers, i i know from my relatives that 5-8 to 10, although the last number after the entry into force of this law on mobilization, as it is called, they say that the numbers increased to 16. well

, listen, well, a person who is ready to pay 10 thousand, that's how much 40, 400 thousand, 400 thousand hryvnias we have, well, then it's better for him to pay in the treasury, get there, i don't know, not for a year's delay, for half a year, that is, in the end, at least this money will work for the army, because we know that, again, from official information, now even ukraine. the military-industrial complex produces three to four times more weapons and munitions than the state can buy. and these people, believe me, who are ready to die in a fight, but you won't make a fighter out of them. you can make meat cannons out of it, if you set it up as a grand detachment, as the wagnerites did, say, during the bahamud operation, but then what are we fighting for if we are ready to become like them? and tell me, please, well, it's really useless to hope , i don't really believe in it, but it's possible. i am mistaken, that there is a certain part of ukrainians there, or a larger part of ukrainians will come back willingly.

by the way, we even track this by the number of people who download the reserve plus mobile application abroad, it seems that there were 1,700 downloads in poland as of yesterday, something like 1,300 in germany, but again, to global solutions, and what can be a global solution, there is a war going on in ukraine, ukraine needs the military, ukrainians themselves are fleeing from ukraine, i don’t know, it is possible to change the migration legislation and, relatively speaking, give away citizenship for the opportunity to be drafted into army, is this also not a solution, in fact, this question has long been answered in the united states. a country where 330 million, i.e. 10 times more than in ukraine, during the afghan and iraq war also lacked people who were ready to sign contracts and go fight for the united states somewhere over the ocean, and that in iraq and afghanistan at a certain stage, more so-called

mercenaries fought, or they call them contractors, it is time to legalize private military campaigns, and here... you have many advantages, i.e. pension payment, recruitment, education, it is no longer the state's concern, it is the concern of those who do business on it, i will give you an example, i myself met, and we treated, rescued, there are quite a lot of colombians fighting in the lebanese direction, believe me, they do not have any love across ukraine to ukraine, for them it is simply a decent salary, and these fighters know what they are fighting for, they fight well, despite the fact that they do not know a single word of ukrainian or even english, that is... here you go the answer, that is, why nepalis fight for russia, because they need them money, unfortunately, if we do not want to advance in the direction of autocracy, yes, the chinese regime, or especially the north korean one there, can mobilize millions and millions of citizens, in ukraine we obviously need to look for other philosophical approaches, because i repeat, i saw people who were caught on the street, in straw, there they conducted

the vvk, brought them and then the commander refused them, they kept them like that in a circle. drove a bus until he found someone who needed it, well, if only there were those who did not care about their soldiers, so you have to look for those who want to fight, in ukraine has obviously run out of them, it is necessary to face this truth, because to put a single point in the information that a person is already mobilized, we need, not the one who will die on the front, but the one who will kill the invaders as effectively as possible, defend our land, or vacate your land. and here we need to reconsider our attitude to the pmc, at least another answer from the world experience, i don’t know, in ukraine they are ready to take this step, well , maybe from what you see and hear, actually, i am the president of the pdmsha of ukraine, yes , well you you communicate with the military, maybe with the military leadership, now i will tell you an example, now we are discussing with

the military and political leadership, because the pdsma already in terms of the number of patients, in terms of the number of motor vehicles... long ago it outgrew the size or scope of the volunteer initiative and became a private military - a medical company, that is, we do not carry weapons, and i am now trying to convince our generals, well , a patient with us is three times cheaper than in the armed forces, we have better equipment, if we have, well, there is not a single deserter, but we are not ready to say, on alas, this is so soviet consciousness that a soldier... it should be someone whose life and health are at the complete disposal of the commander. if you are not ready to talk about the medical unit, which a priori cannot create any problems, then obviously, although we say that we are going west, but i gave you the example of our main strategic partner, the united states, that is, we remain much more similar mentally to russians with

such a bug-like attitude towards soldiers, unfortunately, this is the bitter truth, and therefore again... will to drown in the tide, the corrupt will receive, the corrupt and scoundrels will receive tens of thousands, but if there were millions of dollars even there, if this money were put into the budget and mercenaries were hired for it, there are many poor countries in the world for which 2-300 dollars is a lot of money, let's think in this direction, because an unmotivated fighter is a bad fighter, by the way, this thesis was also voiced by our colleague on the air. journalist stanislav osieev, who also joined the army, and he said that when you are in the trenches unmotivated fighters, even if there are a lot of them, it is a tragedy because you cannot rely on them, yes, that is why i repeat, again, the state was so generous, it was obviously also preparing for a short war, that now those 15 million, which must be paid

to the deceased, led to the fact that there is obviously a lack of money in the treasury, that is, there is a careless ... instruction to keep the deceased in the status of missing persons as much as possible, so this is another way out, because you agreed with the pmc, and this is further insurance, payment, non-payment, this is all the problem of your contractor, because this contractual relations, to what extent, how to control them, this is a good question, and prigozhin's rebellion says that sometimes the pmcs get out of control, but i repeat, if the americans succeeded, and we hope ... still, that we will become western, obviously it is necessary to control the size and those key weapons, for example, hymers or there tanks, just do not hand over the planes to the pmk, because there is a lot of other work. and i am not a military person, that is, again, but i think that the military and, in particular, our strategic partners, the americans, have enormous experience and even a ready-made legal regulation, it

is called, if i am not mistaken, it is the first edition of 99, the current edition of 2003, it is called contractors on the battlefield manual such, that is, an instruction that determines the treatment of mercenaries or contractors, as they sound in english later we will have the opportunity to ask the people's deputy from the relevant committee about this, i will put three points here, but here is another question for you, you said that there are fewer and fewer motivated people in ukraine, they have run out are there running out of people who are ready to join the army, please tell me, but according to your feelings, or maybe according to your information, and in the highest government offices, in the political and military leadership, they are aware of this bitter truth? no, actually i have... the impression that the higher military and political leadership is increasingly detached from reality, that is, and this, well, this is the problem of any power concentrated in one hand, it is not

a disease of ukraine only, because a person has only 24 hours and 7 days a day, she has time, well , that is, the psyche is so arranged, to listen a limited number of axes, and then they involuntarily push all the extra information away from themselves, trying to save their psyche, and therefore, unfortunately, this is not a claim against zelensky, specifically, it is a claim against the system of power that he built, it is simply , you know how a small stream does not withstand, does not provide feedback to the front, unfortunately, this is another tragedy that weighs on ukraine, would not allow us to be as effective as we could be, but here is such a question, it is, of course , very, very hypothetical, but let's imagine that ukraine opened the border during the war. what would happen? mass exodus of people, again, i repeat, well, especially men, well, you see who, who knows a little about this history, but as

border guards, we saved thousands of their lives at the front, well, this is such a constant phenomenon, just a pandemic, when mothers take their children abroad at the age of 17, so that they can officially take them out, or rather take them out, because the border closes at 18. i think, well , we lost at least 10 percent of men for ukraine within a month, maybe a week, further, maybe more than 10%, it is very difficult to guess here, but to lose a tangible part is a fact, but you said, you just said, that the political leadership, if i understood you correctly, is detached from reality, but the day before we discussed, just as the material appeared in the pages of the economist, and there, there, however, the authors quoted their interlocutors, they did not state so independently, but they said that volodymyr zelenskyi is in a warm bath, and his

generals do not always report to him everything that what is happening at the front, do you agree with such conclusions, i will tell you more, the generals do not always know what is happening, how is it possible, well , elementary, because generals, well, generals, presidents, prime ministers, do not like them. bad news, that is, if this is a real commander, let's say, like a radish in azov, yes, he has already become typical, then he will tell the truth, if this is a commander who wants to make a career, get a faster rank and go somewhere in warmly visited the academy, he will report what the management wants to hear, well, the example with defensive structures, you, oh, you correctly show exactly how you guessed, how they were lying by the road. in the vovchansk district in the kharkiv region, and the president told us three days later that everything was going according to plan and that all of them had been laid. thank god, we live in the age

of the internet and in the age of social networks, when you can simply see with your own eyes that i do not think that the president wanted to deceive his people, he was simply informed by those who do not want to answer for their own, well, at the front, it would called about, say , punctures, so, unfortunately, again, the system feedback. well, very, very ineffective, and this was once again shown by the kharkiv operation, by the way, today the verkhovna rada announced that a temporary investigative commission on fortifications will be created, including, you are monitoring this, you expect some results from the work this one, i am absolutely not interested in the activities of the verkhovna rada, since today it is such a wonderful expression in english rubber stab, i.e. a completely deobjectified body, and... why are you interested in the hand that writes or the seal that beat up? that is, i am interested in the hand that writes the story, it is on bankova street, not on hrushevsky street. and what

else would you show? showed the attack on kharkiv oblast, but in addition to the fact that there were no high-quality fortifications, if i understood you correctly, although , of course, i would like to wait, including the conclusions, the conclusions of the tsk, whatever they were, whatever they were, he would allow front, i.e. well, the deputies themselves almost smuggle themselves there, i.e. completely different people rule there, the times when the deputy crust meant something are in the past, on it's a pity, they made a hara-kiri with their own hands at the beginning of zelenskyi's term, so... i don't expect any investigations, it's easier for me to get into the trenches than for the deputies, and what else did they show, well, they showed that everyone seemed to warn about this and when the offensive began, then again simple movements were recorded, clearings were mined, there was not enough power, that is, and on the other hand it showed that we really have very skillful and heroic units that

are ready... you know, when fire alarm was not at home, we have excellent firefighters who know how to put out fires, but it would be better if there were an alarm system and automatic fire extinguishing, then fewer of our heroes would die, that is , heroism is always where the system does not work, and we do not lack heroism, unfortunately, the system is slipping, let's see what will happen in the near future in sumy oblast, and what do you expect there, a repetition of the kharkiv, kharkiv events , well... i don't expect that, that is, i have access to certain confidential information, that is , i expect, well it is clear that the russians have taken the direction of the stretching of the ukrainian front, so that our most combat-capable units could be urgently transferred from the donetsk front and the south, especially from the donetsk front, that is, from the east to the north, which is exactly what happened in the kharkiv region, when even the commander of

the ukrainian armed forces there or... was changed urgently order, that's why i'm afraid, you see, the russians will learn their lessons better than us, it's not a shame to admit it, after the defeat in the kharkiv region in the 22nd year, they built the suravikin line, and it was for this that the bakhmut operation continued, which took away all our forces and means that we in fact, well, we were able to advance 18 km at such a price that it would be better if we didn't go there, just so that the whole world would be convinced that the russians had learned to... hold back the ukrainians, and you see, they learned their lessons, because the density of the mine barriers and fortifications buildings, well, it does not resemble what happened in kharkiv region, unfortunately, not in our favor, but we have deviated a little from the topic with which we started, but it seems to me that this is also important, now you are talking about kharkiv region, well , of course, it is connected, yes, that is, they run, because when you fight with proper weapons, in...

shelters prepared in advance, well concreted, you have a much better chance of survival, and those who were ready to die for ukraine without a covenant, well, they just ran out, there are very few such people in any society , especially in non-totalitarian societies, and in totalitarian societies nazi germany, the soviet union, north korea, that is, there are quite a lot of fanatics, because they are brainwashed by propaganda, in a democratic society, which ukraine still remains, such people, passionate people. very few, and unfortunately, there are almost none left. then i have, i agree with you, but i want to, i introduced to the question, a couple of days ago we had maryana bezugla on the air, well, not the last person in the verkhovna rada, the deputy head of the defense, defense and intelligence committee , and here she made a very loud statement there, first to herself in social networks, then she repeated it to us here and she said that the commander-in-chief of the armed forces

of ukraine appoints incompetent generals. who should be judged, not appointed to the positions, she said that the commander of the largest strategic group of the armed forces, a criminal, that's what she said about yuriy sodol, by the way, we sent him a request, we are waiting for a reaction, and this is a rather loud accusation, and as for me, quite there was a quiet reaction, i did not see any reaction at all, tell me, please, but what can you say about such an accusation, does it have even the slightest basis? i don't know, i haven't met the generals for a long time, that is, my level of communication is that of the cambrigs, the kambats, among them there are a lot of decent, heroic people, but there are outright criminals, that is, especially, well , our direct visas, of course, brigades and battalions, there are brigades and battalions, again, i repeat, well, when we have a defense force of more than a million people, this is the growth of society, well, we met from people who. ..