world, trump's second presidency will be terrible. a project for those who care and think. political club. every sunday at 20:10 at espresso. we are back and welcome all the viewers of tv channel so. in our youtube advertisement, we touched on the topic of the russian position forum in the city of lviv. such an oxymoron. eh, not the funeral that took place today. we hesitated for a very long time when we learned this information from the page of the city mayor, a gardener, where he was indignant, saying that he would appeal somewhere, then we learned that almost the only lviv media that was invited to and present at this forum was kanal 24, other lviv media did not get there, there were all-ukrainian media, there were polish media, there were german media, they have already been consulted. we are also with the relevant

services and after that we made such a difficult decision for ourselves, and this interview, i think, will cause a lot of people when it appears on the youtube channel, veliky lviv makes contradictory comments, but we let the person speak, ilya ponomaryev, a person who associates himself with the legion of freedom of russia, why was he chosen, he is ukrainian-speaking, for the project says velikiy lviv, this is a principled position, and no matter how popular a russian opposition figure is in... in the context of youtube, if he does not communicate in ukrainian, on the project in russian, in ukrainian, he only communicates in russian, then on the project velikiy lviv speaks, he does not will come, so ilya ponomarov was with us, it is also worth saying that he received ukrainian citizenship there in 2019, he is quite public in the mass media, he was ready to come and speak, we asked him everything we wanted, he answered it, his answers sometimes, well, that's it so, you know, like the russians, well... they

have their own logic, that's why i even recommend you to watch it so that you can hear it again, now it's a short excerpt, actually, well, everyone is interested in what happened at the freedom forum of the russian position , if there is one, because according to the results of the interview with ponomarov, the answer of the unification definitely does not exist, let's have a short synchronization in the studio of the project, says velikiy lviv to our broadcast ilya ponomalov, well, look, we are trying to unite all the forces that are ready to help armed protest. at the front, well, and killed, of course, by those partisans, who are now at this oil refinery, who are destroying airbases, who were involved in a lot of such high-profile cases behind enemy lines, and of course the situation there is quite difficult, because here even certain people say that there is opposition, and there is opposition, and we are the resistance, we, we are the ops, we are the people who are behind with weapons in our hands, personally, i myself was not

in the terrodefense from the first, when the large-scale offensive began, and i am a ukrainian citizen, well, that is , we are trying to destroy the aggressor and we are trying to destroy in general the russian federation as a state, not as a country, but as the state and completely reboot it so that it is something new, and of course there are many russian oppositionists who are against it, but there are people who are in favor, and here is to unite them and... connect them with these units that are at the front , that was the goal, this is already the second event, the first one took place on march 17 in kyiv, and this is the second event, it was much bigger than the one that was in kyiv, and that's why i think it was very important , and we are very grateful to those lviv residents who helped us. and how difficult it was to organize in general it is in the city of lviv and why the city of lviv, because after all we understand. that even if we take

the geography of our entire state, even at the time of a full-scale invasion, it is precisely in lviv that there is conditionally the most irreconcilable position regarding language, we understand that in many regions of our state there is still this language issue, so i understand that for sure for it is the russian position, well it is not close unequivocally, but why lviv and actually, how did you organize all this here? well, there are two reasons: ah... the first, it is very simple - it is logistics, because it is difficult for russians to enter ukraine, there is also a question of security here, the farther east we are, the more careful we have to be, that is, the dagger flies to kyiv in 5 minutes, and that was important there, there were eight of us plus three minutes, so it was an important question and. and secondly, well, i just think that

it is very symbolic, because there are a lot of speculations about it, but i want to emphasize again that there are many people here in lviv who help us, and we... in this very, very grateful, vitaly made a very interesting analogy portnikov, such, i would say, even somewhat dangerous, although, as i say, vitaly portnikov remembered that in 1930-1935, ukrainian, ukrainian writers of the last century, ukrainian political activists gathered in lviv, because where he ruled , the red empire ruled, it is clear that their mouths were gagged. and he says: but now we can draw a parallel, that there is no more place to talk about some beautiful russia in the future, in which it is difficult to really believe, the russian opposition and oppositionists have no more place than to gather in lviv. well, that's it. mr. stansk, or is there any benefit from them and are they not playing

a double game with their convenient forms. mr. stetsky, what do you think? well, i found out about this forum of the russian opposition in lviv, just when i was going to this program. and in order to understand what it is, it is necessary, at least , to find out what circle of participants, what goals they set for themselves and what theses they publicly promote. ugh. well, regarding ilya ponomarov , for example, i generally have a favorable attitude, since, well, it is generally known that he positions himself as a person who believes that there is no other way than the armed overthrow of putin's regime. and he clearly positions himself as such a political spokesman of the rdk and the legion of freedom. russia, we had the opportunity to talk several times on the topics of the russian-ukrainian war already after the large-scale invasion, and we did not really agree on the issue of the future of russia, he started with the democratization of russia and the replacement

of power, and he was clearly against the self-determination of indigenous peoples, further he's moved on a bit, and he's the only character that's kind of likeable, he... says completely different things, than, for example, says khodorkovsky or the same kasparov, not to mention other people, well, there is another analogue, ilya panomarov was at one time the founder of the congress of russian people's deputies of various levels, which was held in warsaw, and where did he go now, i don't know, uh, russian, well, this will also be discussed in the interview, they explain it in an interesting way, we asked about it, where did the legitimacy of these deputies come from, well, they gathered some deputies, for whom some russians voted in different years, they somehow... summed it up, well, that's it pseudo-legitimacy is dubious, but the russian liberal opposition gathers in different platforms and says different things, and it differs, for example, from the forum of the free peoples of russia, where representatives of the nations that are part of

the russian federation and which set themselves the goal of leaving the composition are gathered of the russian federation, these are tatars, bashkirs, chechens, these are other peoples, and these... it is much better for us to have a conversation with them, so the marker of the relationship to such forums is one thing: they, their answer is not only to the question of whose crimea, this is kaspar very it is easy to get out of this question, he says: putin is a criminal, crimea is ukrainian, war is criminal, period. no. ugh. the marker of our attitude to such forums and to any figure of the russian opposition, liberal or illiberal, is their answer to the question as they see it. the future of russia, if it is the termination of the existence of russia as an empire, its de-imperialization, that is, its disintegration, or at least some form of refederalization with the right of those autonomous entities that want to leave, leave and form their own states, this is one

history, if this is what fairy tales tell us about the democratization of russia, but the preservation of the great russia, then sorry, we should not deceive ourselves and play along with such actors and such forces, in this case, we ukrainians should be, well, not that , it doesn’t matter, we should put aside the fact that the idea of ​​de-imperialization of russia, namely its division, is currently not approved by our western partners, well, it is not approved now, so what, but it is beneficial for ukraine, and it ultimately is profitable for the westerner world, and we have to impose this narrative and we have to deal with those figures of the russian opposition who stand on... on the same point of view as us, and those who do not stand, then it is not that not good russians, they are even useless russians, and we are very, so i don’t know that they gathered in lviv, that’s an honest word, i don’t know, so half-conspiratorial, well, in the west, when they gather, they widely advertise their

events, they trumpet at all intersections, on all internet resources, well, the last munich conference, they behaved, well they simply wanted to be an order of magnitude more active than the ukrainian delegation, they were afraid, probably, well... and the gardener, podolyak is present, who the hell was there, what were they talking about , what were they talking about, well, all of this, well, let's put it this way, i have three question marks , at least ms. zhivko and magda, well actually, i want to mention. that it wasn't so secret, because a few days ago journalists dropped me a link to the accreditation, and i frankly thought that it was some kind of fake, that it wouldn't happen, what they were talking about, of course, we can't know, and about ilya, i am with him i often talk on your broadcasts, and i have repeatedly told him that for me good russians are only dead russians, he has a strong endurance, and i, too, always want to understand for myself what his goal is, why he moved to ukraine. why does he fight for his such russia, but switched to another language, i.e. why

does he seem to have principles here, no, well, what they talked about, it’s hard to say, we weren’t present there, the only thing i know for sure is that the rdk is passing very strict control, they are constantly checked, and most importantly the intelligence department, the security service allowed them to defend the homeland, the guys who participated in the battles with them say that they fight very professionally, that is, i will talk only about this topic, so it has the right to exist , our people who provide security in this country have made it possible for them to fight, and so they benefit, i think, for the reasons that they have information, they have knowledge of the territory to others, but really, what was said, it's already difficult here to say, on the banner of this gathering was it was written on may 21-23, so they were several days, that is, it all lasted for three days, it was all discussed, yes, don't you think so? it is strange that in lviv on heroes' day it becomes known about the forum of the russian opposition. well, i'm just

a little interested in the question, i'll say that the russians are very actively playing reflexive management, and i had the feeling that this information was thrown in so that, no, the caring lviv residents would understand in which in the room it is located, and accordingly... brought constructive criticism into the course the discussions of those who are, by the way, representatives of the russian imperial opposition, because there were no representatives of the enslaved peoples of russia, this is, let's say, a completely different political party, absolutely, mr. batenko, you know, i think that we are too we pay a lot of attention to this so-called russian opposition, you know, i think that this is a kind of struggle for masses under the sun of those people. who ended up outside the borders of the russian federation as a result of historical circumstances, because

, let's say, like kara morza, he didn't end up outside the borders, he deliberately went to prison, and he in fact , navalny is now dying in prison, in prison, he did not end up in exile, he deliberately returned, he went to prison, where he eventually ended his life, and these people, they deliberately, ilya yashin, ilya yashin, ilya yashin, who so in prison itself. there are few of them, after all, there are few of them, but these people, there are more of them, they are in the west, you understand, this is a struggle for a meal under the sun, this is a struggle, forgive me, i will say this word for certain financial resources, well, because there are enough of my own, and no, listen, you're new, you don't even imagine to what extent western society, western institutions tolerate this so-called russian opposition, i participate in the pare, well, as a member of the pare. right away, friends, there is no such thing as a meeting of the parye session now that the representatives

of the russian opposition do not come there, moreover, they are given special attention, special, close attention, the secretariat is parried and so on, that is mrs. navalna there and others and so on. let's not list them, that is, it is obvious that this is a struggle for one's place under the sun, the attention of western institutions, these are opportunities to capitalize on oneself, and of course that they no, they are not real. fighters for the overthrow of the regime, well, because these, well, they are largely marginal, with the exception of ilya ponomarov, these are marginal personalities, well, now, because they do not have an opinion and they do not have a serious influence on russian society, none of them, none of them with the exception of the late navalny, the panamanians are a unique personality in general, i don’t know if you know him, he is a nephew, and his uncle is the secretary of the central committee of the cpsu,

and why can’t you unite, well, you for some russia of the future, and what kind democratic, good russia, although good russia, again, and the answer was, well, he says, well, look, well, i can't do your politicians either. everyone else, they do not have this understanding, they continue to play some political games, drag, the answer to this question is simple, they are too marginal, so it is impossible for them to unite, that is the main thing, if they were not so marginal, they would found a common language much more easily, they sit in backyards in europe, but from the point of view of informational noise they really create what noise, well, we should still learn,

this pr is more profitable for them than for us, that's for sure, and of course, we once believed that they... would be able to go out on the streets and overthrow putin, but that didn't happen, and by the way, we asked him about it too, why can't the russians unite like this, he says, well, can you imagine if they all went out to the street for navalny's funeral, there are cameras, there are cameras, they would be fired from their jobs, well, that is, well, how can they not be fired in the elections, thousands of people could not be fired from their jobs, that is, they went to the elections, and in germany, well, in the fourth we remember that the students were also intimidated that they would be expelled from the universities, well, if they took part in the orange revolution, how did it end, well , many thousands of rallies, when no one could say a word against those students, well , that's the difference, well they are okay, yes, mr. magda, we know that we have to let you go, that's why we don't want to talk about the negotiations so little, today president zelenskyi

said that russia will do everything possible to disrupt the negotiations in switzerland, what about her? can do to disrupt these negotiations, therefore that we understand that the result of those negotiations is so declarative, and what is the importance of this summit in general, what do we expect from it, what can happen there, maybe something will be offered to ukraine? it is not the first day that i urge you not to have exaggerated expectations about this summit. first, there will be arithmetic, that is, 160 states and international organizations have been invited there, this is the position of the organizers. i'm almost done. that not only swiss and ukrainian diplomacy are working on the organization of the summit, as formal co-organizers, but also the americans, the british, maybe the french, well, i’m just based on the real possibilities of our diplomacy, for example, in africa, well, who can we seriously invite there, yes by and large, although, by the way, we have a strong

argument that ukrainian grain went to sea corridor there, and we, for example, with china... "give me a word, we have and can trump what we have, we relieve tensions, regarding food security in africa. let's not think that the summit in switzerland will be a hearing of ten, sorry , not 10 commandments, but 10 points of the peace plan volodymyr zelenskyi, if only because it was made public." years ago, and during this time there may already be certain people in it, well, it is not the 22nd congress of the cpsu, when volodymyr zelenskyi will come to the podium, read, and everyone , i'm just sorry, i lost my mind, if there are less than 100 countries there in switzerland, and different representatives will be counted, and presidents, and speakers

of the parliament, and ministers of foreign affairs, and special representatives, and ambassadors, if there are 100, ugh. well, that is, a little more than half, ukraine has the right to say, more than half the world community is ready to support the peace plan, to discuss the peace plan of volodymyr zelenskyi, but in any case it will not be a triumphal procession of 10 points, and this is evidenced by the position of the president of ukraine himself, who chose three points, which are: freedom of navigation, radiation and nuclear security and the exchange of captives, the return of ukrainian children, well, these are the points that obviously cause the least reservations, well, it is difficult to resist the release of ukrainian children, well, to anyone, even allies of russia or from the minions of russia, this is a topic that needs to be, well

, promoted, ugh, that is, in my understanding , ukraine’s calculation is that... in the process of discussion, some working groups will be formed that will be able to convey the vision of this summit to russia, but i’m not quite i understand whether moscow will want to, in its usual boorish manner, with whom, well, that is, the fact that they do not want to talk with ukraine, it has already been said more than once, it is clear why we decided that they would want to talk with someone else, but.. at the same time, it will be determined at the summit, well, naturally, no by the decision of the summit, and by the behavior of the representatives of these countries, the list of states that... want to be mediators between russia and ukraine, we can already say that it is most likely, for example, the vatican, well, this is its function, uh,

i don't know , well, the ecumenical patriarchate should be invited in theory, and it would be logical, well, in any case, because this is a war, by the way, between two countries with the largest orthodox communities in europe, obviously it will be turkey, it is a very active country, well because... dogan after winning a year ago on presidential elections, it has become largely pyrrhic for him, there are economic problems, there are political ones, he needs to play more actively in the international arena. most likely it will be austria, well, it has already been reported that cyril ramofosa will not come, then there will be no couples. for us, by the way, indian prime minister mr. modi unexpectedly played a positive role, saying that india will participate in... summits, if a chinese representative does not come there, then india will be the voice of the global south. i am not sure that china is ready for this. i predict sooner

after all, a chinese representative will come to switzerland, well, at least to see with his own eyes, draw conclusions, remind about the existence of the chinese 12 points, which are very similar to the russian position, and accordingly work in this way, but to expect that... what on june 15-16, switzerland will gather and decide the fate, and after that the war will stop, this, unfortunately, is unrealistic. mr. stetskiv? well, i, i would like to draw attention to the fact that the basis of the angle should not be a political forecast, emotions, russia's point of view, but rather principles of international law, the un court, and the fact that russia has committed a world crime, and for sure that it would be correct to initiate ukraine,

ukraine should be a pioneer in that topic, and rule-making proposals, because today the legislation that exists, it screwed up somewhere in 60 years, it must be recognized, as well as international conventions and so on, but these... challenges, they force us to be the initiators of rule-making activity, and i would say that here we must definitely use, as mr. maybe there will be platforms, there will be appropriate groups, we we must reach the emotions of the participants, and ukraine must ask the number one question, which is the formation of an anti-putin coalition, because today the whole... world already hated putin, saw his lies, saw his manipulations, saw the horrors of war, its consequences, and the world

understands that it must be stopped, i would not be here in a minor such a way, i was convinced in a major way, that is why the anti-putin coalition is the number one issue, and the second, i... here i explained something and tried to explain and on the panels, and on this one summit, that russia, when it heard that certain world leaders said that no, no nato military would fight on the side of ukraine, it was fas team for putin, putin, when he sees that his scarecrows are working, he then acts , but... but there is, i would remind also about the decision of the un general assembly, which recognized that russia committed a world crime, and it raised the issue of stopping aggression,

withdrawing troops from ukraine, it cannot be said that there are 10 points here will not work, i am convinced that we must strive, we must put, if they do not exist, do not act principles of law, then there is no law as such. and if we pass, we will move on to some other points there, it will be wrong, and this is where i believe that it is necessary to seek the implementation of the decision of the un general assembly, because there is the seventh chapter of the un charter, which provides for how to act in the event that the aggressor country does not submit to the decision of the general assembly, and there is a lot of work there, i would also like to pay attention to something else, you should pay attention to what kind of manipulation is going on... on the side of the un. the un indicates that 15,000 civilians died in our country . one of us died in mariupol behind 100,000 people. and i ask a question. our

government, and where are your eyes, why don’t you tell this, russia, remember me, will then talk about the fact that this is all fiction, that they themselves destroyed the people, that they, they are inventing, such a thing did not happen, because they did not was never raised, and we did not raise it at the un, we did not raise it in any information space, therefore all these questions must be asked, the mutilation must also be shown there, the destroyed ones must be shown. cities, because the world is basically indifferent, we see how everything is happens if they are not touched by the trouble, they are indifferent to the problem, but in the presence of such fervor that it causes this evil, causes the gathering of so many countries, i think that there is a need to work very, very convincingly, then with botenko’s remarks, i stand to

the swiss peace forum, as to the initially correct... diplomatic plan of the ukrainian authorities, the purpose of which, the purpose of the plan was to gather as many countries as possible, to develop an end plan acceptable to ukraine and the majority of these countries that will come the russian-ukrainian war and some dashed-and-dotted contours of the future world order, and then from the height of this agreement present a kind of ultimatum to russia. we agreed, do it. ugh. such a distant analogy with the tehran conference of 1943, as envisioned by ukrainian eu officials in the ministry of foreign affairs. with the only difference that in tehran in 1943 those who had already decided that hitler is evil, that the goal is the destruction of the german army and the military defeat of germany, gathered in tehran, er, no negotiations with hitler, no one leads, and the goal of the post-war system is...

to deprive germany of its industrial potential for waging war, there is none of this now, there is none, and that is why zelensky himself understood that from the conception to the start of the conference , the situation had already begun to change, and already from 10 points the president himself of ukraine said that only three will be considered, not 10, but three, because it became clear that there will be such a disagreement on most points that the parties will at best express their positions. in addition, it is not yet clear where this forum will lead, that is for example, they are beginning to say that he will bring some mediators and some negotiations, who made the decision that russia will go to these negotiations, does anyone have any information, russia somewhere stated that it will agree to negotiations with mediators on behalf of the swiss forum, nothing like that no, it's a wish, probably. and after all,

if you want to bring the aggressor to the negotiating table, then you have to have leverage. those who gathered in tehran in 1943 had leverage, this is armed force, and the opening of a second front, because the soviet union is third the second front. all. and what is the lever here? to make russia even sit down at the negotiating table. suppose, for such, for such an absurd thing: military intervention? no, there is only one lever other than military intervention. it is to strangle russia with sanctions, well, in that case, we need to hear a clear and clear position of the western world, that it is, for example, ready for a total economic embargo on russia, for example, to introduce an export duty against all russian goods without exception, and thus limit imports into russia , including food and medicine, so that russia simply suffocated, this is a lever, then the use of such a lever puts unyielding russia

at the table. sentences, well, if not a military intervention, that’s right, that’s excluded, and not a complete economic blockade of russia, because not everyone would even agree, but even if the western world would introduce such a pitaneous thing, it didn’t happen for years, we expected it to happen , so then we come to what will be a realistic picture of this whole affair, this whole forum, in addition to the fact that they will gather there and talk, from my point of view it matters the greatest success of this conference, of this first phase, will be the number of countries. will only come there, and that's why russia is embarrassed by it, and that's why russia is fighting against it, and that's why it actively asks china to shoot down all those who want to, who are influenced by china, so that they don't go there. in everything else, i am not just skeptical, i believe that this is a soap bubble, the search for some mediators who will go to some russia, the pope of rome, bartholomew, the austrians.