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the politclub program, vitaly portnikov is with you, our guest nataliya pasichnyk, swedish-ukrainian pianist, director of the ukrainian institute in sweden, welcome mrs. natalya, nice to see you, good day, thank you very much for the invitation, you know, i want to start our conversation with such a consideration about such a certain cultural schizophrenia in which we lived for decades and continue to live after the beginning of the great war, that is, we have been ukrainian performers for ten years. ukrainian artists, ukrainian, i would say, journalists, told the world about russian culture, about the connection of russian-ukrainian cultures, about tchaikovsky and prokofiev, which are related to ukraine, and in fact they did not talk about what is directly related to, i would say, high ukrainian culture, i am not talking now about folklore, about any such things , but about what, in principle, is part of our cultural experience, if we talk about high culture, about opera, about ballet, about great literature. about poetry,

that for 2.5 years ukrainian artists, instead of telling that we have all this, go around everyone everywhere and try to ban russian culture, that is, they are trying to fight against what they have propagated for ten years in a row, and to all my comments, maybe we can talk about ours, we can't always talk about russian either with a plus sign or a minus sign? i encounter complete misunderstanding, because i have the impression that people understood, as they understood that you can make a career in russian then, so they understand that you can make a career in russian now, and ukraine is falling somewhere in tartarariphschizophrenia , you see, all the time, and here i have a question it's simple, how should we promote ukrainian, because how should we fight? with russian, i already understand for sure, there will be an army of people ready to make a career on this whole story, but how to show the world that ukraine exists, you know, you just took all the words from me, from my practically, that i wanted to, very nice is the wrong word,

what you are discussing gives me hope in general, the fact that the way i look and listen to the ukrainian information space, it seems to me that this topic in general is somehow in the shadows... and a little bit i understand that we have to survive now nation, we are currently under missile attacks and the like, and talking about culture may not be the right time, but i have been living in the west for 30 years, more than 30 years, i have seen the transformation of this vision of ukraine from the 90s to of our time, so to speak, of a collective event, from the 90s, yes, when it can certainly be characterized best by george's speech. bush, who said that no, no, don't vote, because ukraine is part of russia, so in 1991, er, 2004, when for the first time they looked at ukraine as something exotic, but still their own, and of course, it's 2014, and it's 2022, and this is

a transformation, and i always ask myself the question, why aren't they listening to us? that's how we talk about what we need, and we seem to be heard, but all the time late, all the time, and here i am after so many years, being, well, i'm probably looking from my point of view, all- i still think that, at the subconscious level, it is a collective event, its perception of the country is built on knowledge of culture, and ukrainian culture, cultural heritage is there were always some such... a white spot, and you absolutely rightly said that the russian cultural heritage in them, that is, russia in them is associated with high culture, no matter who you ask, this, this country, they will all name dostoevsky and tchaikovsky and the like, and we have helped them a lot in this all these years, so as you said that it is some kind of thing

, well, i actually wanted to ask you a question, because i do not live in ukraine, it is very far away, how to explain this some kind of stockholm syndrome, that even now, when we are being bombed, that's it for example, there is such a narrative in society that it is okay, for example, even our own conservatory still has tchaikovsky's surname, and i think that without some strategy, it is probably impossible to achieve this, because the way it is done in our country now this cultural diplomacy, i will tell you how the ukrainian institute was founded, and what i am telling in general, was always an impetus, i was on tour in paris and told about mine, and it was... 14 years, i told my colleagues about russia, about history, how they behaved with us, i'm just right then they seized the crimea and the like, and they listened to me, looked at it, everyone said, well , what you are telling me, this cannot be , that they have tchaikovsky, they had a decent movie, and even more so in france,

they generally have such a great piety before russia, and i thought to myself, it is much on a subconscious level, stronger than anything that is right, wrong, or similar, that is, it is somehow formed. in them, they don't know anything about ukraine, but they know about russia, and of course, well, this became an impetus for to create this ukrainian institute, which in the end, right away in 2014, we turned to the ministry of culture of ukraine, and this is what started the conversation about the creation of a ukrainian institute in ukraine, but, of course, to compete with gazprom, money or some of their propaganda, or this... it's very difficult, but for me, so far in 2022 and after that, i haven't understood a little about this great war, i must have told some of my colleagues, such as you continue to say, who, well, look,

i wanted, i can, i am such an example i will show you that in the heads of the collective event, we have been a part of russia for so long. and i think that the cultural dimension played a very big role in this, well, they even perceived ukraine through russian culture, one might say, through tchaikovsky, through pushkin, and for. now, when this window of opportunity seems to have appeared for ukraine, all the platforms are pushing us along with the russians, i'm talking about my small or big puddle, yes about high music, and always when they give an opportunity to represent ukrainian music, always go there add some tchaikovsky and shostakovich, and people who have a core, who refuse it, turn out to be some kind of radicals, unlike those people. which, well, it seems like everything is okay, well, we have to present this to our ukrainians, and here we have this platform, and this

creates even more confusion in the minds of this collective event, or so to speak, the listener-spectator , and explaining to them that this is not so is much more difficult than if there was some specific such, no, well, we, we do not do this and do not know this, so i do not i know what it is about ours, that is... i know from the western side, i know that ukrainian performers come, they want to make a career, this cultural platform is saturated, one might say, with metastases of russian money, they have to adapt , and so it is, as it is, well, whoever has a rod, he goes against the wind, but it is more difficult, but tell me, let's try to discuss a specific instrument, so we understand what is there on the stages of ... large opera houses , there are german operas, there are french operas, there are finally russian operas, but they are not there is so much, well, there is tchaikovsky, roman

corsican, stravinsky threw everything on this, but it is no longer a russian opera, so to speak, like what we often see in the repertoire, but here i am, but there is also a czech opera, of course, and polish, people who go to european opera houses, they know who smetina is, who dvořák is, who mańushka is, they see it, opera houses are always looking for new material, because it gets tiring... to show the same thing , i can already remember ballet for decades, and the question arises: do we have a chance for ukrainian to show the opera on the stage of, let's say, the swedish opera house, and the ukrainian ballet, we have all this, we have this, we didn't always have a lot of it, because again, when there was a choice between ukrainian ballet and russian ballet, we always chose russian ones, well, it's very simple, we had, let's say there was this... what was it called, the night before christmas by stankovich, which was written

specifically as a new year's ballet, and it was not performed at the kyiv opera, because they believed that loskunkchik is more promising, and it was renamed so as not to show the new one year, it is still going under a different name, well, it is like that, it is the past, maybe it will change, but if we offer it to european opera and ballet theaters, what should we do to make it really... because i believe that if a person will come, but you are talking about the performance of some repertoire, relatively speaking, it is clear that the same package can be stuffed into lyatoshynskyi, sylvestrov, shostakovich and rachmaninov and it will seem like the music of the same space, but if you show the opera in stockholm , then everyone will understand that this is not a russian opera, but ukrainian opera, it's just a different musical series, it can be done, you know, i just didn't know it. what you told me about this opera is very interesting,

i can say from my own experience, actually pounding this rock since 2014, that of course it's all possible, but it's all extremely difficult, because fighting loskonchyk is to practically fight like a domkihon, and for this we need some kind of more state strategy, because when an artist comes from... he says: well , look, i want to play a concert for tushynskyi, he’s so cool, that’s one thing one thing, and the other thing is how, for example, russia uses its resources, some pianist appears in them, let's say, not even the best one, they take him and immediately wash all the venues with that rachmaninov of theirs, and this rachmaninov concert goes 150 times in the same, well, in all concert halls, i would say even more, but in general... the very concept of cultural diplomacy in ukraine, i would like to hear some discussion of the very definition

of culture, because well, look, this is what the russians win as as a nation with a large culture, of course, money, the empire, and the like, but they are always putting their dostoevsky and tchaikovsky swords in their swords, they don’t push some kind of pugacheva or some kind of commercial art, that’s how it is in ukraine, if even... there are some such at the state level , they talk about cultural diplomacy, there is always either a folklore population or a commercial one, and, for example, to offer two or three operas to theaters at such a... strategic level, as you say, these russian operas are not played, it's literally like that tchaikovsky really also goes with ballet, there are three of his ballets, as well as with piano concerts, two or three piano concerts, but everyone knows that, and actually we have probably two or three piano concerts, as well as 20 two and three operas

that somehow need to be done at the state level... where there could be mechanisms for easy availability of these operas or this repertoire, but i would say that, well, here is what you said, that stankovich is there or who is there, sylvestrov, lyatushinsky and shostakovich in one concert, i would say that it is more destroys rather than builds, i say this because it, it destroys ideas, because in fact, relatively speaking... lutoslavsky and tchaikovsky do not appear in the same context, we are not talking about the cultural level, about the level of composers, right , but no one would think of playing lyutoslavskyi and rachmaninov in one package, relatively speaking, because they are different, just different programs, a person can play rachmaninov's concerto, but he will not play lyutoslavskyi's concerto in the second movements, according to

the logic of the concerto, that means , well, in different ways you can build programs that way, you can build programs not only. stylistic , homogenous, and some other concepts, for example, i will tell you about our festival, which ended recently, and we were building a program for a concept that was ukraine as an integrated part of european cultural heritage, and actually it was, well, if red thread of the festival, so programs can be built in different ways, but what is important about this is that you cannot mix it up, and that, again, it introduces fuzz into the minds of this collective event and creates a fake image of ukraine, which means that we are a part of it, a part of their space, but also that we do not have a high cultural heritage, but we do have it, and this strategic vision of the state is a bit lacking for me, well, to be honest with you i will say, but

continuing the festival further, i would like to say that, for example, these are not unrelated... kinship, as, for example, in the festival program, as, for example, bach through the prism of a ukrainian musicologist, or jazz with a ukrainian lullaby , that is, these are also not mixing things, but theirs you can mix when there is a red thread, when there is some concept and when there is of course a very high artistic level, too, and this is very important, but to talk in general about ukrainian cultural heritage and about ukraine as a country with a high culture for single wrestlers or single players. even if they have a very high status in society, it is very difficult, and here one cannot do without a state strategy, perhaps there are certain reasons for the very public reaction to this high culture, because ukrainians have been convinced for decades that what is their culture, it's a folk festival, it's folklore stuff, which is definitely in

every nation and you know, it's also an absolutely important thing, there are whole countries with whole... channels of folk music that are also broadcast in sweden, like you you know, all this is there, but it is just adjacent to another, and it was not adjacent to us, because when high culture began, it was, as it were, russian, urban, and this is all rural culture, which is different, and what sweden has harmoniously intertwined, then in ukraine it is disconnected, and it is very difficult for people to accept that, and the russians always told them, and they continue to say, well, this is city culture, and this is your village, well, promote your beautiful village, and we will be here in our city? to make our culture, which is different from yours, because it is already the culture of the city, and when you try to explain to people that ukrainians also have a lot of everything that other nations have, well, a simple example, you are talking about diplomacy abroad , there was never a classical music radio in ukraine until the last five or six years there, it simply did not exist, now

there are a couple of radio stations, they are, ukraine was for a long time the only country in europe. without radios, but recently i was riding in a taxi, there was radio classics playing, and it was lyatoshynsky, if we don’t have our own radio classical music, no one in the world will hear lyatoshynsky, if it is, we have a chance that others will hear it, it’s simple approach, if we are not interested in it ourselves, we cannot present it to others, and this is absolutely correct, but when i came to visit my parents, it was always very difficult for me to find them. somewhere in some such public spheres, that there, well, practically, even if it was ukrainian, already when we had these, er, what is it called, on the radio, yes, what is it called in ukrainian? 80% or 70% of the slots are so ukrainian, so it was always commercial music, that is, you could never hear anything else, and i think that the media plays

a very big role in this, because it is practically high, so to speak, especially cultural heritage in the media, well, as far as i can see, of course, i cannot judge, but i, too, is tangential to the ukrainian space, it is practically absent, and this is the formation of a certain look, too, how in russia they have these... on television all the time, they have some, i don’t know, piano competitions on television all the time, we have them all the time, well, or some kind of max factor or some other voice of the country, well, that is on a completely different level, i think it is also very important for the media to know, well, i have to tell you that you, that you are talking about some kind of russia, which now also, which now also does not exist, there is a russian tv channel culture, but that's all what you see on mass russian television is not what we used to see. in soviet and post-soviet times, putin's russia is a country, to put it mildly, far from high culture for the masses, yes, but,

you can't erase all these years with an eraser, all these years, if they remain, and i'm very pleased to hear , how nice it is, this war in general, oh god, it’s terrible, i think that everyone will agree with me that choosing between what she did was good, and if she didn’t do it... then probably after all choose not to have her, but if you look for something good she did, this is exactly what you say, what what there was such a great creativity and a desire to, well, from getting to know one's own cultural heritage, and also at a high level, but again, i will return to what we started with, what ukrainian artists, well, struggle with... and well if they don't wash theirs and that was the thought, it ran away from me, i'm sorry, find it, i'll find it in a couple of minutes, as

i speak, i will find it, but the thought is that i know, knowing my own, conveying my own, eh, we have i'm sorry, you know, you can already see... it's coming, it doesn't have to, i don't know how to formulate what, what, what i wanted to formulate, i think that if you know your own, you begin to be less interested in what role someone else's plays in the lives of others, that's what, i think the logic is, i remembered what i wanted to say, that our, if artists, instead of reporting that wasting time and effort to tell the world that tchaikovsky is ukrainian, for example, they can do the same thing and waste their time telling the world that we have lyatushynskyi or lysenko, and that this cultural heritage

is unknown not because it has some secondary artistic value, but because that we had such and such a history that it was either stolen or destroyed, and also thanks to this , the idea of ​​our culture is conveyed, and this is a very important idea for you, that instead of trying to take it from the russians... for this, we we will not give it back, it is ours, it is worth fighting for what was always ukrainian and wanted to be ukrainian, unlike the imaginary tchaikovsky, who simply wanted to be a russian composer, this is his sacred right, but there were so many people who wanted to be ukrainian composers, lysenko refused to cast taras bulba because he didn't want to to translate it into russian, which was proposed by tchaikovsky, who wanted this opera to be in st. petersburg, but he wanted to translate it, it did not come out there, i think it is a good, good ending. of our conversation, mr. natalya, i want to wish you great success in promoting ukrainian culture in sweden. natalia pasichnyk, swedish-ukrainian pianist, director of the ukrainian institute in sweden, was in

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greetings to all espresso viewers, i'm naima melnyk and it's time to learn about the main news of this hour, the number of dead in kharkiv has already increased on the 16th, 45 people were injured, the regional prosecutor's office was informed about... the consequences of the russian terrorist attack on the construction hypermarket in kharkiv. the examination determined the data of 13 people. as the spokesman of the department dmytro chubenko said, the search operation was complicated by the large area of ​​the store. mayor ihor terekhova appealed to world leaders to provide kharkiv with modern anti-aircraft systems.