ended during a meeting of some countries that are gathering somewhere, they will meet, talk and the war will end on the second day, this has never happened and will never happen again. the forum, which is being held in switzerland, is rather a political forum in order to bring pressure on the russian federation, primarily the countries of the global south. so it turned out that during the sanctions imposed by the west on the russian federation, russia sometimes managed to avoid these sanctions. because of the position of the global south, well, we see it, and it is actually important, precisely these countries of the global south, even though they are divided and not united, but they still represent a certain position, it is important to drag them to the side of good, this is what this forum is for, that is why we actually see this struggle for the widest possible representation on this forum, primarily for the countries of the global south, well, in the grand scheme of things, we understand very well that if on... china wanted there to actually

be peace in ukraine, then china would do it very quickly, it would simply stop buying russian oil, and india would also very seriously contributed to peace, if she really wanted it, if i stopped buying russian oil, but india is going, india will come, and i am leading to this, so now we see the main battle against the background of this preparation, the main battle, who will go there and who will agree to this position... , that russia is evil, everything it does is evil, and the west and those countries from the global south that join this will obviously represent the position of good, that is, it is happening around this. i think that a serious conversation about the fate of the war in ukraine will happen very soon, but it is connected not with switzerland, but with the united states. when the election campaign ends there, i think that trump will most likely, well...

at least we see, according to the latest sociology, he may have every chance to become the president, he will have such a window of opportunity to say his word in relation to russian - the ukrainian war, and therefore a window of opportunity will be opened for some geopolitical, i would not even say negotiations, trades, and everyone understands this, russia also understands this, and the united states also understands this, only they now are engaged in elections and not to that, and of course other countries understand this, which would like to play... some serious diplomatic role in the world, so now everyone is ahead of the curve and declares the desire for their formulas, the desire to participate in this peace in ukraine, and of course ukraine must prepare for this, because we must be ready for any scenarios, i emphasize, for any scenarios that you see, that is, mr. serhiy, whether russia will succeed, for example, thanks to such cunning games around various peace formulas , a split in the global south. india is going

the chinese are not going, and so on, whether they will, in fact, be able to force some kind of bad, bad scenario for ukraine. you, well , look, i don't believe that any kind of peace with russia will be possible as long as putin lives, that's at least. we must understand that all these diplomatic maneuvers are only maneuvers, we must not take them seriously, we must perceive them as mere rhetoric that must be listened to, but it must be understood most importantly, most importantly. it is that the current russia in its current state will still wage war under any agreements, but on the other hand, i repeat, ukraine needs to be ready for any scenarios, because war, it happens not only on the front line, it also happens in the economy, we see how important it is from the point of view of sanctions, it also happens in diplomatic offices, and in all these points, ukraine needs to find its arguments, understanding, i repeat, that russia will not put up with us under any circumstances, i believe, if i answer your question, "if this

happens, and the appearance of a temporary freeze of the conflict will be created , then it will be another intrigue, how ukraine will use this time of this conditional truce, whether it will be arming and mobilizing society, in no case, well, to put it mildly, we must not relax, on the contrary, strengthen our defense, then there will be chances that at least a new round of war will take place as soon as possible, or it may not take place, or it may be considered then..." what if something is suddenly agreed upon there, that it will be peace and nothing needs to be done, as it seemed to us in 1991 , therefore, then the intrigue will be different, how ukraine will use the time it has will receive from the conditional armistice, but there should be no illusions about the fact that there will be peace with russia , we just have to also understand that the rhetoric of the west will be used, well, the word peace, freezing will be used there, they will say that, because they understand that, they know their history, the history of their countries. the history of europe, they

will use it, we must take part in it, because we have no way out, we must play this diplomatic game, but not build any illusions at the same time, and all our efforts should be in that. how will we use the opportunities that may theoretically appear to us if this happens and some geopolitical tone is imposed. well , in general, i believe that another scenario is not excluded, that trump will see that it is impossible to negotiate with putin and will continue to support ukraine even more than biden, and this should not be ruled out, we can see what evolution is currently taking place in the circle of these trumpists, who until recently were against aid to ukraine, but now they are for it. that's why i... i repeat, there will be all scenarios are possible, the worst that can happen to us now is to be ready for one scenario that we draw in our heads, this will be the worst, because the geopolitical situation is much more complicated than it may seem. mr. taras, can you try now to sum up the intermediate

results of a sufficiently global game, for big money, i mean russia in particular on external fields, they will not be able to disrupt the summit. we already see this, but this whole game, maybe not even for this summit not to take place, but for in order to have as wide a circle of people as possible, more than some ultra-right and ultra-left out there, who can be invited to the st. petersburg forum or give them their money for their party, faction or for the election campaign, now we can already see that certain pieces have gone, although would, for example, on... on defense theses, when , for example, the british, the swedes say they gave you weapons, beat the russian-fascist occupier, and the hysteria in italy, we saw literally yesterday, in fact we are categorically against, against and so on, that is, these are

the lines of division, whether they will succeed according to the peace formula as well as gathering people who will start shouting at a high level that listen, there is some formula, come on... peace, the same things were already said not at the level of some kitchens there, at the level of the already high political kitchen, the number of such people has increased, well, look , here are two tracks, we should not confuse diplomacy and the implementation of these these things, i always, you know, there is such a phrase, a good word and a gun. you can achieve more than a kind word, but kind words, yes, kind words are diplomacy, you know, a framework, there is peace and everything connected with this, but it is possible to implement it only with concrete actions, and we must understand that the

more strikes on the territory of the russian federation by ukraine, ukrainian weapons, the better it will be for us, we should not hope that someone will decide something for us, because it is not you . we must turn that board over, in principle , ukraine is already doing it, so that decisions are not made at our expense, but at their expense, for example, is there anything that the united states of america fears, they will fear chaos in russia, they will fear that , they generally by the way, we have always played with the integrity of russia so that we have no illusions, yes, for the last 100 years, and this is also a dependency, this is also a dependency, does ukraine have... to organize chaos in russia, yes, well, at least technological, strikes on the compressors of oil refineries, already on moving targets arriving, on railways and so on, this is when moscow loses the opportunity to pump resources from the regions and sell to the west, this is a real

questioning of the economy, and look what is happening, now if you look at the map of russia , it was always built so that everything sell to europe, they lived like this for 400 years. resources were pumped out of siberia and sold to europe, and here moscow was needed as a center that held the regions, and now the situation is that moscow is not needed, if you cut off the main arteries, then regional elites, sorry, oil and gas to china they can do it themselves, and china is nearby, and moscow is not needed in this case, that’s why you should understand these things that are interesting to us, the stronger we are... the more we will implement these things, by the way, the dialogue was interesting, regarding the change of the united states of america, the hearing was in the congress, where the republicans called the blinkin hearing, there such passages were heard that had never been heard before. mcfaul, who

was in charge there, he asked blinkin, he asked, on what basis did you forbid ukraine to strike on the territory of russia? didn't congress forbid it? and you know, in uh, in the american political system , the self-government of one of the branches of government is actually a very serious charge, and mr. blinkin, notice, ah, he... didn't tell the old sharmanku about this about this about nuclear escalation and mr. selevan sounds again, this is a russophile group that actively plays on the side of russia, and look, today i continue to say that how can we, as ukraine, change today's report that the huriv people attacked the voronezh remote observation station, yes, 1800 km and this is the nuclear infrastructure, ukraine is showing the united states of america that all these

tales about nuclear weapons, the use of nuclear weapons, bluffs are bullshit and there is no sense, this time. further on trump, look, we must understand, we don't know what trump will do, but to understand that the world loves the strong is one thing, but we know for sure what trump will do, but it's 99% possible, he 'll take it off. restrictions on the drilling and export of american oil and gas, the construction of lpg terminals, stone will remove the restrictions on these oil pipelines imposed by biden, this means that the supply of oil on the market will be significantly greater, and this means that the question here is where russia will take its oil will work if ukraine does not have time to cut off their export oil refiners, the question here is not what india buys. and china, the question here is that ukraine should do everything to ensure that

they do not have the opportunity to export their oil and export their gas, well, with the only exception, american companies that pump kazakh oil through the territory of russia and poktk, they have exception, let them pump, because the government of the united states of america actually paid a subscription so that ukraine would not touch these oil pipelines. it is difficult logistics there, the same novorossiysk port is also involved there, you have to be careful here, you have drawn one of the possible scenarios, and here i am, mr. serhiy, and i am already listening to one or more scenarios and i absolutely cannot understand how it was in saakashvili, the office of simple solutions, and in my boss, the office of simple solutions sounds like this, they give us uh immediately, because they... there are, well, at least there are 150-200 f16, they give us a lot of atakams, and everyone

is talking loudly, weapons in front, as they said today in nato , yes, the weapons transferred to the armed forces of ukraine become ukrainian, and how they will use them is their business, that is the second simple solution, the third simple solution from one of the scenarios that you have drawn for us, if somehow they come to some kind of ceasefire, then in adhoc mode, as it were. made for very long-standing neutral states, like finland and sweden, we immediately, the territories controlled by the ukrainian government, are accepted into nato, with the automatic triggering of the fifth article, everything, as miho saakashvili would say, here is the office of simple solutions and three simple solutions, and where are the problems? i'll tell you what i think will be the biggest problem, the biggest problem if ukraine gets involved in the long-term. a war of attrition with a country that has five times the population, which,

by the way, this country does not feel sorry for at all, it can be mobilized, although, i don't know, at least every tens of thousands, killed, nothing happens to anyone for this , and a country where there is no right to private property is very easy to mobilize any resources for military production, but if ukraine enters a war of attrition for years, for many years with such a country, i think it will be the worst scenario, everything the rest are options, the best no, but at least, well, you can vary there, you can look for some kind of solution, for example, you voiced the so-called german option, which means that theoretically ukraine could be included in nato, but of course the territory controlled by ukraine, well how at one time germany, the western one was in the civilized world, the eastern one was supposedly occupied by the soviet union, and then years later, when favorable geopolitical conditions appeared, germany was able to. to unite, well, in the same way that ukraine will be able to unite someday, when favorable geopolitical conditions arise,

well, for example, when russia collapses, or russia at least suffers some huge losses, and, for example, putin leaves his post for natural reasons, this is a possible scenario, there is also a korean scenario, we know it, it is the same as with the german scenario , only ukrainian ukraine is not a member of nato, so there are other scenarios, but all i'm calling for... er is that we just avoid any simple solutions, because any simple solution is a simplification , and geopolitics, especially the complex one in which ukraine has fallen, is definitely not a simplification, this... we need to take into account a lot of nuances, for example, i believe that the west did not take into account the nuance that it constantly calculates, by the way, that it will be very easy for russia to mobilize people, because there is a totalitarian regime, as they say in the west, well, how can they mobilize people there, they will go to protests, they cannot accept that they are being sent to oboe, well, they measure it by themselves, it can be done in russia, or

for example, i believe that in the west to a certain extent did not estimate the position of the global south in... in terms of procurement of energy resources in russia, or, for example, they did not calculate the greed of their own companies, private companies, western ones, it is their spare parts that are sometimes still found in those rockets that fly to ukraine, this was not calculated in the west, they did not calculate, so we have to calculate all things, and those scenarios that you voiced, they can also be on the agenda. in general, i believe that we in ukraine should now fight, now for the preservation of our own state and fight for that. for this state to be a member of the euro-atlantic european structures, it should be for us task, and the task of restoring the territories should definitely be on the agenda as well, but we should not have illusions and simple solutions that it will happen, well, literally tomorrow, mr. sergey, you said about certain common denominators, which is precisely the preservation of our independence, well about

one of the rather resonant aspects of this, i also wanted to ask you at the end of the program, we talked about the fact that russia is implementing putin's plan there in the buffer territories in the north of the ukrainian lands, as a response to the raids that were carried out by russian volunteers against putin to the kurshchyna and belgorod region, or implements another front in order to actually move from the north. diverting both forces and resources and, in principle, continuing the front line, there would be a lot of problems, about which there was a lot of noise, and a temporary special commission was created, this is about this, this is about sovereignty and security, and when it was created, that's all at first it was good that they created it, and

then it was bad when they started to look and analyze who is there in this commission? and will work, but the scandal continued, we from the very first second they were talking, and how did two russians from opzzh suddenly join the banned party opzzh in a temporary special commission with access to state and military secrets, one left, it was vitaly bort and they replaced him, instead of him, in my opinion, will be razunkov, what could have been done from the very beginning, another opzh. the landscape artist and russian native anatoliy burmich is quietly sitting in a corner somewhere, maybe he is writing something in a telegram to the fsb uncle, lisa bogutska, well, i think that some kind of movie will be made about her right now, not only about mariana bezuglu to shoot, that's right, it was also changed, but

why was all this done, why is so much cringe, stupidity and everything... other things happening on such sensitive and important things, it's being torpedoed, they just want to bury it without starting, or what? well, you see, it is very difficult to talk about any democratic processes in peacetime, and to many , probably in power, it seems that wartime gives the opportunity to do anything, although this is not the case, and for example, those things that we we see the same with freedom of speech in ukraine, for me it is also very strange, because, well, for example, in israel, which is very fond of being called... there is no single pelemaraphone and you can talk about a lot, if it does not touch the details of military operations, so we really see that many things are happening inside us, to put it mildly, not in the best case scenario, and we see a lot of violations of democratic procedures, and we see it in a lot of places, let's say, not only where you said, and this, by the way, if there is such

a tension, what can happen to a country if it will get involved in this protracted war on exhaustion, so at least we... return the democratic mechanisms, by the way, i repeatedly said on your broadcast, and a year ago, and immediately when the great war began, that it would be wise for the authorities from the very beginning, from the very beginning , to create a government of national trust, where all the representatives of the party would enter, and they would take political responsibility for whatever happened later, and it would be easier now, the authorities would now have more maneuverability, because they would refer to the position of a broad government, and having... this government of national trust is possible it would also avoid issues, for example, criticism of the government during the war, because then whoever criticizes the opposition will be out themselves, so it was necessary to make the right decisions at the right time. which would preserve the minimum mechanisms necessary for the country to exist even when there is war. well, unfortunately, we didn't have time to make such decisions, and we now have the consequences,

and that's why it's important to get out of this clinch, because in fact, well, we see that restrictions on freedom of speech and democratic mechanisms can harm national security, can harm national interests, and we see this in many examples, including the way a new wave of aggression began in the kharkiv region. mr. taras, what do you say, well, what kind of reshuffling has not started work yet, scandal is already catching up with scandal, one landscape painter is gone, the other is still sitting, what about that temporary special commission of the verkhovna rada, it will never get to the truth, that there with the fortification, and what about the army of drones, what about others in the northern regions, well, look, we have tsk always had such recommendations. character, well, you know, the system is characterized by infallibility, the reaction to a mistake, if raised, let them expel the security guards there, well, fine, but we

should not hope that it will work like this, you know, as a recommendation mechanism, it will work, in another way, you know, we better ukrainians should concentrate on this, concentrate on the production of our weapons, that is, demand the government to lend to the military industry. to demand an increase in the state order of the military industry, to reduce it spending on unnecessary things, because here the question is whether there is such a margin of safety that russia is talking about, it is not a fact, as it says, if ukraine also needs defense lines, billions have been written off for them, no, no, defense lines , no, ukraine, ukraine's tactics should be blind defense and strike on the territory of russia, this is the only way, i mean, tsk was created. to check if we're really doing this, what she's going to check, because i'm just commenting on what we're being told at the event tales about the korean scenario, germany, are

all lies and intelligence, i'll tell you why, because germany, germany and the korean version became possible only after the death of stalin, and even further, in korea and in germany , there are still american troops who doz.. something happened with us, mr. taras, you have already returned, so there was a little interruption, the american troops are still there to join nato , if we talk about germany , then austria exchanged neutrality because i did not actually dictate germany's entry into nato. i believe that ukraine's accession to nato in parts is pure intelligence, because as long as putin is in power, he will never allow this, because there will be a question, what are the borders of ukraine, and

it will turn out that the dependence of nato accession depends entirely on putin, because it will be necessary to negotiate with him, whether they could, whether putin has the opportunity to attract people, theoretically it is possible, but if they could do it so painlessly, then they would have done it a long time ago, because they had a question, who? will work in the military industry, who will work, in including to fight, because it is necessary to arm the people, it is necessary to do all this, that is not the case, why are they in a hurry, again, why are they here, you know, and immediately out of goodwill in the west they begin to tell us, the group of seliva burts wants to save russia from chaos that ukraine can arrange, with strikes on railways, strikes on oil and gas compressors, oil... they can't change it either, because it's either all imported, or the production of the mykolaiv factory, now our project, and that's why, what are they afraid of , and that's why

all these accounts, stories begin here, that we will accept you in nato in parts is a lie, frankly, it will never happen, because there are no borders in 1991, and we must understand that now we need to concentrate on a full negotiating position when there are missiles. when there are weapons and we are going to attack russia, and then the question will still arise, and again, if with the arrival of trump, that he will lower the price of oil, it may even fall to 50 dollars, it remains to be seen what will happen to the russian economy, in which it will be a negotiating position, and ukraine can exchange an opportunity to make a big problem for the western world in the form of chaos in russia to solve a small. problems in their eyes, the borders of 1991, admission to nato and cancellation of debts, this is how it is necessary to negotiate and set such conditions, but this

can only be done with our own weapons, because... the goal, the only goal - to stop the supply of weapons to our state , they want to do as it was in the 14th year, they are just starting negotiations, in the west , various well-wishers immediately appear, who begin to say, let's give peace a chance, an embargo on the supply of weapons to our state and the next blow will be, well, we already passed this in the 14th year and so on, we have two more minutes, mr. serhiy , so that on this thesis, which mr. taras spoke about, well, logically... that comrade

selivanov and this pro-russian regional committee will always be afraid of all these things, even bush at one time said, do not go anywhere, sit in your soviet union and do not twitch, what will happen now in the coming months, we understand that the intrigue will continue until the end of the us election campaign for the kremlin, what will happen sooner make, at least create chaos in the border on russian territory armed. ukraine, or the russians will be able to start the mechanism of chaos in ukraine, because we see how they work and intensify their actions, including relying, if not on agents, then simply on ipso and on useful idiots. well, i would not like to say that russia will succeed, i would like to emphasize something that russia should not do. so russia should not deploy any strategic successes at the front now. i think if we come out

on more or less stable. front line, then it will be possible to talk about passive defense, and about the supply of weapons to ukraine from the west, and about the sanctions pressure on the russian federation, which, unfortunately, is not yet producing the results we expect, so now it is very important that the borders are stabilized, at least by autumn, if by autumn the situation remains approximately as it is now, then at least the new administration of the white house will have, so to speak, a chance to start from scratch, the lines will be clear. they will be outlined at the front, they will not move, then it will be the opportunity to start something, but at the same time, at this time, it is very important for ukraine to devote one's time to ensuring that the west begins to fully understand that the war in ukraine is their war, it is not only ukraine's war, because if something something bad will happen, it will also be bad for them, but i think that in the west

there is no such understanding to the full extent yet, therefore, by the way, it is important that the western instructors find themselves openly on the territory of ukraine, because when they are threaten russian missiles, where there are components of western campaigns, then it will have a completely different resonance in those countries from where these components will appear, so it is important for us now to prove to the west as widely as possible that this is their war, and then the terms of any negotiations, which i repeat, will not will end in peace, the maximum is freezing for some time. or any other things will be most favorable for ukraine. to understand that the supply of weapons to the west must remain collateral so that this does not happen. colleagues, thank you very much for the detailed analysis and, as they say, we had time to look at this from all sides moment in our history, i want to thank taras zavgorodny, polytechnologist, and serhiy taran, political scientist, who were our participants

in the verdict program, thank you. for your attention, russia is actively attacking kharkiv, as a result of which dozens of people have died in the city, and even more injured, so how to save kyiv, the largest front-line city of ukraine, the next 15 minutes of the bbc broadcast will be broadcast from london, jafer rumerov is working in the studio. therefore, the largest front-line city of ukraine: kharkiv is under constant attack by russian missiles, and today, may 27, a day of mourning was declared in city ​​for those who died as a result of the attack on the construction hypermarket epicenter on may 25. at least 16 people were killed and more than 40 wounded in the russian attack.