and as? well, you see, it is very difficult to talk about any democratic processes in peacetime . and to many, probably, those in power think that wartime gives them the opportunity to do whatever they want, although this is not the case. and, for example, those things that we see in the same way with freedom of speech in ukraine are also very strange to me, because, well, for example, in israel, which they like to give an example, there is not a single pelemarathon there, and we can talk about a lot, if it does not touch the details of the military. operations, so indeed we see that a lot of things are happening inside us, to put it mildly, not according to the best scenarios, we see a lot of violations of democratic procedures, and we see it in many places, let's say this, not only where you said, and this, by the way, if there is such a tension, what can happen to the country if it gets involved in this long-term war of attrition, so at least we should return democratic mechanisms, by the way, i repeatedly said on your broadcast a year ago that... and

immediately when the big the war began, so that it would be wise for the authorities from the very beginning, with from the very beginning to create a government of national trust, where all the representatives of the party would enter, and they would take political responsibility for whatever happened later, and it would be easier now, the authorities would now have more maneuverability, because they referred b to the position of a broad government, and with this government of national trust, it would be possible to avoid issues, for example, criticism of the government during the war, well... because then , who will criticize from the opposition, it will be themselves, so it was necessary at one time make the right decisions that would save those minimal mechanisms that are necessary for a country to exist even when there is war. well, unfortunately, we did not have time to make such decisions, we now have the consequences, and therefore it is important to get out of this clinch, because in fact, well, we see that restrictions on freedom of speech and democratic mechanisms can harm national security, can harm national interests, and we

can see it in many examples, including the way a new wave of aggression began in the kharkiv region. mr. taras, how are you? you say, well, what kind of reshuffling has not started work yet, the scandal is already catching up, the scandal, one landscape painter is gone, the other is still sitting, but what about that temporary special commission of the verkhovna rada, it will never get to the truth, what is there with the fortifications, and what about the army of drones, what is there in... other northern regions, well, look, our tsk has always had such a recommendatory nature, well, you know, the system is characterized by infallibility, a reaction to a mistake, if they raised it, let them expel the opzhazhists there , well, but we don't should hope that it will work like this, you know, as a recommendation mechanism, it will work, in a different way, you know, we better ukrainians should concentrate on this on... concentrate on

the production of our weapons, that's what, demand credit from the government military industry, to demand an increase in the state order of military industry, to reduce spending on unnecessary things, because here the question is whether there is such a margin of safety that russia is talking about, not a fact, as she says, if ukraine, the lines are also needed defense, billions have been written off for them, no, no, defense lines, no, ukraine, ukraine's tactics should be. deaf defense and beating on russian territory, that's the only way wine, i mean, tsk is created to test if we really believe that it will test, because i'm just commenting on what in the west we are told tales about korean scenarios of germany, it's all lies and fabrications, i'll tell you why, because germany, germany and the korean version became possible only after the death of stalin, everything further. both in korea and in germany

there are still american troops, i allow, yes, something happened with our communication, mr. taras, you have already returned, yes, a little pmerican, american troops are still there, further to join nato, the soviet union, if we talk about germany , exchanged neutrality then. and austria, because he actually forced germany to join nato. i do not believe that ukraine will join nato in parts, this is pure intelligence, because as long as putin is in power, he will never allow this, because there will be a question, what are the borders of ukraine, and it will turn out that the dependence of joining nato depends entirely on putin, because it will be necessary to negotiate with him. could or is it possible for putin to attract people? theoretically, it is possible, but if they... could

do it so painlessly, then they would have done it a long time ago, because they had a question about who will work in the military industry, who will work, including fighting, because it is necessary.. . people, it’s necessary to do all this, that’s why they are in a hurry, again, why are they here, you know, and they immediately start telling us out of kindness in the west, selivan burts’ group wants to save russia from the chaos that ukraine can arrange by striking the railways, striking the oil and gas compressors, oil and gas infrastructure, they also cannot change this, because it is either all imported or manufactured. the mykolaiv factory is now our project, and that's why, what are they afraid of, and that's why all these stories begin here that we will accept you in nato as part of it, this is a lie, frankly, it will never happen, because without borders in 1991, and we must understand

that now we need to concentrate completely a negotiating position, when there are missiles, when there are weapons, and we are going to go after russia, and then there will be a question and... still, if with the arrival of trump, that he will lower the price of oil, it may even drop to $50, which is unknown, what will happen to russia's economy, in which it will be in a negotiating position, and ukraine can exchange the opportunity to make a big problem for the western world in the form of chaos in russia, for solving a small problem in their eyes, the borders of 1991, admission to nato and withdrawal . debts should be traded like this to set such conditions, but this can only be done with our own weapons, because we can hope that someone will decide something for us, and when they say that a korean option is possible, well, the korean option was a completely different historical context, because again

stalin died, the korean war ended, when stalin died, putin, unfortunately, is alive and well, unfortunately, he does not drink or smoke, unlike yeltsin, yes. and we have to take that into account, and so any negotiations that he launches now will be, the sole purpose, the only goal is to stop the supply of weapons to our countries, they want to do as it was in 14th year, they are just starting negotiations, in the west , various good-willed people immediately appear and start talking, let's give peace a chance, an embargo on the supply of weapons to our state and the next blow will come, well, we already passed it in the 14th year and so on, we have... two minutes, mr. serhiy, in order to, in fact, on this thesis, which mr. taras spoke about, well, it is logical that comrade tselivanov and this pro-russian regional committee will be always be afraid of all these things, even bush once said, don't go anywhere and sit in your soviet union and wonder what

will happen now in the coming months, we understand that the intrigue will continue until the end of the election campaign in the usa for the kremlin, what can be done sooner ? at least create chaos in the border area on the russian territory by the armed forces of ukraine, or will the russian armed forces succeed in launching the mechanism of chaos in ukraine, because we see how they work and intensify their actions, including relying, if not on agency, then simply on ipso and on useful idiots. well, i would not like to say that russia will succeed, i would like to emphasize something that russia should not do, so... russia should not deploy any strategic successes on the front now. i think that if we reach a more or less stable front line, then we will be able to talk about blind defense, and about the supply of weapons to ukraine from the west, and about sanctions pressure on the russian federation, which, unfortunately, is not yet giving the results we

expect. therefore, it is now very important that the borders have stabilized, at least until autumn. if the situation remains roughly as it is now until the fall, then at least... the new administration of the white house will have, so to speak, a chance to start from scratch, the lines will be clear, they will not be drawn at the front, they will not move, then there will be an opportunity to start something, but at the same time, at this time, it is very important for ukraine to devote one's time to ensuring that the west begins to fully understand that the war in ukraine is their war, it is not ukraine's war only because if something bad happens here. it will be bad for them as well, but i think that in the west such an understanding is not yet fully present, therefore, by the way, it is important that western instructors find themselves openly on the territory of ukraine, because when they are threatened by russian missiles,

where are components of western campaigns, then it will have a completely different resonance in those countries from where these components will appear, so it is important for us now to prove to the west as widely as possible that this is their war and... then the terms of any negotiations, which i will repeat, are not will end in peace the maximum is a freeze for some time, or any other things will be most favorable for ukraine, mr. serhiy, and your vision. thank you very much for the detailed analysis and , as they say, we had time to look at this moment in our history from all sides, i want to thank taras zavhorodny polytechnic serhiy taran, a political scientist, who were our participants in the verdict program, thank you for your attention. tired of heavy

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greetings, friends, with you is vitaly portnikov, our interlocutor oleksandra matviychuk, law enforcement officer, head of the organization center for civil liberties, which was awarded the nobel peace prize and laureate of the prize. named after vasyl stus. congratulations, ms. alexander. good evening. let's start with the report of the state department of the united states, which is dedicated precisely to human rights in ukraine. there are a lot of serious remarks about russia, which could have been predicted, but there are also remarks about ukraine. it seems to me that these comments need

to be analyzed, that the most important thing is how we should do this, if you want to work on mistakes, because this is just a statement of facts. obviously, and we have to do this work on mistakes, understanding the context. we are trapped between two logics, the logic of war and the logic of democratization, and it is difficult to balance between these logics, so these facts, which are presented in the report, should be viewed not as mere criticism, but as something that needs to be corrected. for example, considerable attention is devoted to the topic of freedom of speech, and it is clear that freedom... of speech is not an absolute right, it can be limited in wartime due to considerations security, but it can be limited only proportionally, and when at the beginning of a full-scale invasion, for example, a number of tv channels were turned off the air and deprived of the right to broadcast, our human rights organizations, and the center for civil

liberties, the kharkiv legal group and a number of others made a statement about , that this is a disproportionate interference in... the water of speech, so it is not surprising that this report contains criticism of the telethon, because the decision that was adopted in the 22nd year and could be relevant in that context, well, with a change context in the 24th year needs revision. well , here it is very important to understand, you know, where decisions are really made, which are justified by the needs of the war, which can also be right, which can be... be wrong. and where is the solution, where war is used to strengthen the monopoly of power. how to distinguish it? and this differs not from the fact that we climb into the heads of the executors or adopters of these decisions, that it is impossible to do, but we conduct a test. for example, when we talk about freedom of speech, there is a three-step test which used in practice, for example, by the european court of human rights. he talks

about three components: whether there is a legitimate goal, and there will be kaza. yes, it is a war, it is a security consideration, are these limitations to protect this goal and the last, well, extremely important and component of this text, are these limitations necessary in a democratic society? and quite often here is this proportionality, which is how the state can pull a blanket over itself, but no more than necessary, even in war conditions, it just fails, it is very important here. to realize how fundamentally we are now in a situation, if you will, of a selective right, and how society perceives it, because by and large we talked about it even before the war. that of course there the state can adopt some measures, very often those that do not correspond to the current legislation, the constitution, against people we do not like, obviously, and this is a very

dangerous thing, and as a human rights defender i always remind that even those people who this is supported by saying, now is a war and we have to use any methods, they think that they are using these methods against those they call enemies, they do not understand'. they believe that if you break the rules of the game, tomorrow these methods will be used against you. well, the question arises, how to explain this to a society that is already so traumatized by this long war and the realization that, relatively speaking, the dictatorship that is opposite, it is very often effective precisely because it does not care about any right, and she can change the law, change the constitution, do everything that is forbidden, i would say, patience necessary, but here i will also add some, probably... very great love for people who will come to you in the comments, who will find you in social networks and start writing to you that you are not in the trenches, that you are a human rights activist, that you are in your

rose-colored glasses, well, this is the mildest of what i actually read when i wrote about such violations, which seem to me, even during the war, to be disproportionate and threatening, well, on the other hand, the occurrence of this is understandable, but... there are the other side of the coin that creates for law enforcement activities are so obvious problem is that the very logic of the war, it somehow calls into question our usual norms by which we treat human rights, and here, even if we are not talking about the russian-ukrainian war, but more broadly, we see how human rights organizations are now condemning the israeli army, israeli security forces for actions in the gas sector, demonstration. these reports, demands, er, not to give military support that are coming out in the united states, i can just quote

senator bernie sanders saying, "no, we're not against the state of israel, we're not anti-semites, we are simply talking about the fact that you violate human rights, but along with this there is a need to destroy terrorism there, to fight terrorist organizations there, and the very activity of the power structures when they do this, and this concerns us as well. when we act, say, there in the de-occupied territories and fight against the occupied territories, it actually undermines the human rights we are used to, and what to do about it? here it is difficult to speak in broad strokes, because the approach to the protection of human rights requires the analysis of each specific case, that is, each one specific case, to the extent that both international human rights law and... international humanitarian law come into force during a war, to the extent that these two fields, superimposed on this specific example, on a specific context, say that the actions of one or another state comply with these norms or not

, because unfortunately, during war , people die, civilians die, and this proportionality, we just talked about freedom of speech, it is also present here, and it protects the civilian population, and it establishes... the norms and rules for waging wars and protecting one's legitimate interests, therefore one must go into each case, and not try to dissect it with broad strokes, although i, on the other hand, say this and catch myself thinking that when i talk about the russian federation , just uses broad strokes, but we have factual confirmation under these broad strokes, we have a database in public organizations in which we have documented 70,000 episodes of war crimes. in two years throughout ukraine, and i can definitely use these facts, with wide masks, to say that this is a deliberate policy of the russian state,

to use war crimes, that these are not some excesses of specific actors or some army unit, that this is the method by which russia is trying to win this war, inflicting pain on civilians and breaking their resistance . well, russia itself, when you talk to your foreign colleagues, it doesn't seem to you that it has followed this palestinian path, relatively speaking, when it replaces the aggressor and the victims, saying that ukraine is committing crimes against of the civilian population, the ukrainian army is carried out like this, and we see how the suffering of the people in the belgorod region is shown there, as if it was just by chance that they got into this situation, that ukraine wants to destroy the peaceful territory of russia there, as it was before. was with donbas, yes, this meme that you did for 8 years, when ukraine bombed donbas, it was heard not only in russia itself, it was always discussed in the human rights environment, i just returned from a very...

long trip to the united states of america , and i found out how widespread the narrative is that ukraine persecutes christians, well, here is a good example, and to be honest, that is, this statement was not accidental, she is not accidental, and unfortunately, she is not, she is not the only one who thinks so, many are convinced , that ukraine is persecuting christians, and you know, there is a special cynicism in that, because we have been documenting war... crimes for 10 years, of course, a full-scale war is a completely different size, intensity, but the trend was understood, as early as 2014, russia considers freedom of religion exclusive as collective category, there should be only one church, or loyal churches, for example, this is the transformation and taking under control of the muftiate on the crimean peninsula, and all the rest of the churches, denominations, religious organizations, both their leadership

and their believers, they are persecuted, and so everything that we recorded during these 10 years, i heard that ukraine is doing it, kidnapping, killing and torturing priests in the occupied territories, and when i heard about it, i just told these cases that i personally documented, for example, i said what he told me protestant pastor oleksandr khomchenko, i mentioned the kidnapping. a month ago, stepan podolchak from the village of kolanchak, kherson region, but to be honest, i am really thinking about what to do with this, because our votes, they are single, and russia used a powerful machine, hired lobbyists in the same washington, they bypassed all the congressmen and told how ukraine is persecuting, and what is meant by the ukrainian orthodox church of the moscow patriarchate, first of all, as an organization

that is being persecuted. meaning that when speaking as an average american, they do not make a distinction, for them there are christians, but they do not know whether it is the moscow church or some other, and these christians are persecuted by russia, and how they package it for specific congressmen, then this is the question that i i don't know the answer, well, in the united states there is an american orthodox church, which is recognized by the russian orthodox church as autocephalous, although no one else... knows, practically in world orthodoxy, but this is a whole organization, which again is its representatives can go to congressmen, to representatives of local legislative bodies, tell about all these sufferings, this is a whole church, but the situation, the situation is more complicated, even evangelical churches, which are persecuted by russia in the occupied territories, they believe that ukraine is persecuting christians, and with that something must be done, because this is the narrative

that i will actively unfold. and it is used , including, not to give ukraine the support we expect from the united states of america. and in general, how do you feel that public opinion has changed during this time? i felt that people, and this is quite typical and natural, are already thinking about other things than the russian war in ukraine, and i felt, and it was, by the way, a surprise for me, because i was on such a tour. at the invitation of seven american universities, that is, in different parts of the country, that we still have a huge reserve of empathy, because wherever i spoke, it was always a very warm reception, people responded to what i told, well , actually human pain, he has no borders, these are very clear stories, and i concluded that if someone were in america all the time had a focus on this, it would be much

easier for us, because... people, they are not indifferent, they are just busy with a thousand other things that are happening in the world at the same time. in principle, what should we do to maintain this interest, primarily in the united states, but also in european countries, because what you say, empathy is understandable, but the level of interest is also very important, we see it in the columns of the world media, the middle east is in the center of events for 200 days in a row, and it is a strategic region for the united states, yes. of course, ukraine is not the only part of the world where a tragedy is happening, where people are suffering, that is, there is a lot going on in syria, which has also appeared in the world press, in sudan, in iran, well, that is, there are various points that needed respect, and our question, how despite this change of attention...