we are asking, and this does not correspond to indian interests at all, these are all things we should simply calculate in our diplomacy, ms. olena, and we are sincerely grateful to you, olena verdylovska, indologist, doctor of political sciences, head of the department of new challenges of the national institute for strategic studies, was in us on the air, we have, as far as i understand, a short break, but after it we will continue, we will definitely continue and return. with you, very soon, do not switch. events, events that are happening right now and affect ours life. of course, the news feed reports on them. however, it is not enough to know what is happening. it is necessary to understand. antin borkovskii and invited experts soberly assess the events, analyze them, modeling our future. every saturday at 13:10 with a repeat at 22:00. studio zahid - hello, how are you there, okay,

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saturday political club, live ether, we continue, and we have a little less than an hour to chat with vitaly portnikov, we have many topics, yes, in particular , the most noisy topic of this week, this is your debate with the so-called good russian latin, that's what i wanted b about it. talk really, and there are several questions here, well , the first question is whether it is necessary to talk to them in general, whether it is necessary to communicate with them, to have some discussions, there are different opinions, someone believes that it is not necessary at all, someone believes that it is necessary to completely cut off, relatively speaking, everything russian, there is good, bad russian, any, you do not need to communicate with them, you need to go away from this russian space, there are others who are opposite. thoughts that

after all, conditionally speaking, it is necessary to speak, to show their insides, to show, this is the very idea that, that is not necessary with someone. to talk about the passport, in general, it seems completely childish to me, because a huge number of people who work so that ukraine will never be on political map of the world, are citizens of ukraine by passport, these passports are generally a conditional thing, just in august 1991, the former soviet republics declared their independence and declared those who were on their territory to be their citizens, there was a transition period of 90 days, i it seems that when... the people who lived in these territories could take advantage of their opportunity not to confirm the citizenship of this republic in the territory they lived in, here is a person who took advantage of this opportunity. no, yanipin confirmed citizenship of the russian federation, where i

lived and worked at the time. but for the vast majority of people, they did not have political views. all this was completely by accident. and a huge number of people. lived there on the territory of ukraine or other former soviet republics, i did not believe that this was something real, even when people voted for independence, they did not really understand what was really included in this concept, it is not surprising that later the commonwealth of independent states appeared , it is not surprising that later the russians said for decades that we live in the cis, and here this moment of truth, that these are real states, in general, it appeared in our conditions, it seems to me, only after 2004, or maybe after 2014 many, and you saw that a huge number of people who fought against ukraine, yanukovych, a certain yakemenka, who now manages the occupation, this special service in the kherson region, tabachnyk, who is a deputy of the regional council of the so-called zaporizhzhia in the occupied territory, zakharchenko, pushylin,

pasichnyk, these are all citizens of ukraine. and of such examples, i can call this last name for the entire ether, our compatriots with you. who were deputies of the verkhovna rada, like kyiv, this one, what was his last name, oliynyk, who was in this kaniv four, oliynyk or who was the mayor, the mayor of cherkassy, ​​who also escaped, and this lukyanov, who was recently detained, who told how we should be friends with russia, these are all deputies of the verkhovna rada, they were elected by the people, also citizens of ukraine, half of ukraine voted for yanukovych. half, well, and along with that, i have always seen people in russia who believed that putin is a dictator and an absolutely dangerous person, at that time when the majority of ukrainian citizens, uh, believed that putin is the best politician in

history, and when putin attacked us in 2014, remember who they began to consider in the majority as their best politicians in history, lukashenko, lukashenko, so the question arises , as always, by passport or by convictions, or by the willingness to somehow realize the infidelity of approaches, i said, dictatorship, the danger of authoritarianism, etc., because if we do so, we will not consider that, after the war, those people who will have passports ukraine will be run absolutely calmly us to the new halepa, from which, as you understand, we have no russians, not you... they will pull us out, because they are only capable of losing us, that's why i always calmly and absolutely talk to my colleagues in the russian federation, or whatever there are emigrants there, they no longer speak russian, i will tell you honestly, for a completely different reason, to those who are in the territory of russia, because if a person

is in the territory of russia, he pays taxes on his youtube income, and these taxes go to the state budget of the russian federation, i apologized profusely to those of mine. interlocutors in russia who were critics of the putin regime, but i got out of this simple situation that if you even criticize the putin regime, but pay him money, then that money will then go to the russian army, to those who speak absolutely calmly outside the borders of russia , all the more so because i think it is important from the point of view of, i would say, understanding certain narratives and being able to explain how our views differ on... because again, i remind you, these views that we heard from ms. yulia, their shared by a huge number of ours compatriots, we live in our own bubble, and it is necessary to understand that the vast majority of people living in ukraine

agree more with ms. yulia than with me, this is the reality, this is the reality, because if it were otherwise, there would be no 19 -th year, and it would not have been the 10th year, and... it would have been the 94th year, and if we close our eyes to it, i repeat again, and we will just think that everything is fine here, and not even to go out into the streets, where people are already again after... war and losing the state, so i believe that to talk, all these narratives need to be stopped, as soon as i hear that a person who is a representative of liberal views, officially, uh, opposition views, says that we have a civil war with russia. and i want to talk about it, i'm ready to answer it, i don't initiate, by the way, any conversations, you know

, with anyone, in general, in my journalistic career, i don't initiate conversations for many years, i'm saying an absolutely clear thing, excuse me for my self-confidence, i initiate conversations only with current presidents, prime ministers internationally recognized states, if i know that these people are politicians with whom it is interesting to talk, i will not initiate all other conversations. except, of course, dialogues with my respected colleagues there, who are masters of culture there, that's another thing, i'm talking about politics, that's another thing, because it's an honor for me to talk with a serious writer, a serious theater actor, a serious artist, but it enriches me enrich, so i want to talk, and when i talk to a politician, i want to talk to people who make decisions, i imagine at what level a decision is made, so if people who are, let's say, on another level, want to talk to me, with pleasure... we talk, but i can take care of myself, this is my very simple approach, i never divide by

passport , you see, i remember how delegations from sarajevo came during the bosnian war, where they were, sarajevo was then, as you remember, destroyed by the bosnian serbs, their paramilitary formations, and there were muslims in this delegation that came from sarajevo under fire , bosnian, serb and croat. and when i saw it, i knew what there is such a bosnian identity, from different nationalities, there is a narrow ethnic identity of the bosnian serbs, which is directed against bosnia, if you like, that is how it is, well, it could be the other way around, it could be our political identity, ukrainian, which is also from people of different nationalities, and there may be an imperial identity defended by the russians, it is important to talk about all this at the level of the russian-ukrainian dialogue, not... intra-ukrainian dialogue, i want to emphasize, you know, why, because people who in our intra-ukrainian dialogue

, they defend the positions that my colleague spoke of, they defend not the internal ukrainian position, but the russian one, and clearly, you understand, that is why they are with them, if you will, like the moon, they shine in their world, and i need , so that there is a dialogue between two stars, as you wish, two suns, not satellites, here in... our compatriots who repeat russian narratives, they are russian satellites, you and i represent an independent civilization, but the russians also represent an independent civilization, an imperial simply if they ready to talk, not to shoot, but to talk, we have to talk to them, to convince not them, but to convince those in ukraine who are still captive to this idiotic... narrative, because i saw it, you can imagine which one, how many of our

compatriots are offended by me because i destroy their idea that there are several equal identities here, i always said that there are not several here, there is a ukrainian one, a russian one, which considers ukraine to be part of the russian state project, yes and there are those for whom everything is the same, ugh, ugh, this. war is nothing changed, but we tell ourselves fairy tales that the war changed something, the war, people are just shocked, ugh, this, by the way, the bolsheviks faced this, they didn’t change anything, they just conserved everything, you see, here they were in 1920 on the whole the territory of the soviet union, when they won the civil war all over the country, occupied the surrounding areas, they conserved everything, and when in 1991 everything was deconserved, they suddenly saw with surprise that, oh, a blue-yellow flag,

a white-red white flag of belarus, latvia, lithuania, estonia, georgia, azerbaijan, armenia . we want the war to end and all this to be deconserved, so i will tell you what will happen, volodymyr zelenskyi will be considered. a representative of the war party, well, his political career will end in a few days after its end, as, possibly, the careers of all those who will say that resistance to russia is our national task, at first after the war, in the presidential elections, 75-80% of the votes will be given to a candidate who will say that our coexistence with russia and

understanding of its problems and anxieties is the key to the survival of those who want to live in ukraine, relatively speaking, our bidzine ivanishvili. and we will live in this regime, which will not even resemble democracy, for another 15, 20 years, without any prospects for any development, there will be such a gray zone, a black hole, what putin wants, and it will be voted by the ukrainians themselves, from uzhgorod to of that city which the ukrainian army will be the last to be liberated, but you said that we don't want that, but you said that essentially in... unfortunately, but the question is that these conditional pseudo-identities or identities, they were introduced by something in ukraine, ukrainian, it is unlikely, it has always been, they were,

russian or little russian, and what is in the middle, well, let me call it little russian, let no one be offended by it. no, this, what is in the middle, is not little russian, here is the one that is russian, it is little russian, and what is in the middle, it is not, well, let it be it is called, no, i can call it, what is the difference, what is the name of the street, if it is not paved, and something to say broadly, what is the identity, then accordingly, these things are there, they were brought to ukraine, they were brought here, first russian empire, of course, accordingly, not only identity, people were brought. people were brought in, resettled, deported, we all know what happened, especially in the center of ukraine, in the east of ukraine, in the south, who knows the history, we take books, read, watch, statistics, we count and understand why it is so, but still, what should we do if we further,

relatively speaking, drag russians to ukraine, or someone russian, the same good russians. will it be right or wrong? and you also mentioned one thing. you mentioned that you are debating with people who identify as liberal democrats. however, as it turned out, even since 2002, after the full-scale invasion, after all the current crimes, in fact genocide, terrorism against the ukrainian people, some of them declare. that they are liberal democrats, they continue to carry this imperial people, that is, they still do not see ukraine as an independent political project, because you cannot be, you can be a liberal democrat in the empire, there is nothing new in this, churchill said that he does not want to preside over the funeral of the british empire, you have no doubt that he is a democrat, you

cannot blame british politicians for not being democrats, they are democrats, but they supported the imperial project before the empire did not fall apart. all liberals and conservatives, and churchill and attlee, and churchill attlee, they then just went to a real meeting, but by the 45th year, i’m sorry, and you don’t think that american politicians, not democrats, who built america during the time of slavery, which, after slavery was abolished, created such laws to divide the population, which still resonates with americans, it all exists in different planes, we don't talk about it at all, and that's why martin luten king is important, relatively speaking, and you again i when i... we should not divide people by passports, you are again talking about good or bad russians, there are no bad or good russians and there are no bad and good ukrainians, a person with a ukrainian passport can be a scoundrel and a traitor, a person with a russian passport can be an honest person and a hero, people are not divided by passports, nationalities, sexual orientation and all this nonsense, people are divided according to

who they are, a person who is a citizen of ukraine and an ethnic ukrainian can be a traitor to the country and launch... ugh, these rockets to orphanages and to and to hospitals, and a person with a russian passport can be verdika, what are we talking about at all, if we are such an approach is an approach of a neo-nazi character, andriy, well understand this, this is the approach of the reich, that only the truth is aryans, so not it happens in history, the fact that we generally say that we do not drag someone, that we do not drag, it is you who are in the inferiority complex. should call someone a good russian, yes, in principle, of course, no, there are no bad ones, or of course, but he was brought to us in ukraine, to me. also don't like it, listen, a lot happens during war, if the war continues for years, which is also very real, there will still be many distortions, and democracy can be buried in a few

years, if the war continues, and there can be huge internal problems , and there will be good and bad ukrainians there, those who will be abroad will be bad, those who will be here will be good, those who will update the data will be good, so, well, so i will rewire you, logic war is the logic of the game, the logic of the degradation of society, there is nothing good in war, but there is one more point, the problem is not what the russians brought or did not bring to ukraine, listen to me, the problem is that they brought all this as hosts, because no, they did not talk to the population of these territories as equals, but they talked to the population of those territories as ... a man walks like a master, so to speak, throughout the territory, and where is this man from, he is from moscow, of course, and they are used to it , that they are talking to, i would say, with

with a frightened facial expression, and you should have noticed, by the way, that this is how russian-ukrainian discussions looked even on television shows, i remember when i came to savik shuster, conditionally. in fact, back in the early 2000s, well, in 2005, 2006, it doesn't matter, and some russian deputies came there, and everyone stood in front of them, that the democrats, who were not democrats, could just tremble in front of them, and others could simply shout at them, that is , they did not have a normal discussion on equal terms... and here i am sitting opposite konstantin zatulin, let's say, whom i have known there since the beginning of the 90s, i have talked to him a million times,

drank coffee a million times there somewhere nearby, why should i look at him scared, who is he, well, there's a deputy of the russian state duma who sold her soul to the devil a long time ago in order to be in the ruling elite, maybe just an ordinary person there... the fsb was recruited, but i remember the reaction of our people, they were always scared. do you remember all this delight of the kyiv public from your childhood, when the moscow theater comes, i just remember the emotions of my childhood, comes to the moscow theater, moscow theaters, i 'll tell you honestly, they were bad then, there was such a moment, well, i don't know, not everyone was there, i just came to us , because the theater on the taganka did not come to us, well... maybe once there , i don't remember, they showed not very good performances, what the kyiv audience did, they sat spellbound, this is a theater from moscow, we had wonderful performances at the

franko theater then, but in some wrong language, came, then they were simply, i would say at the peak of their achievements, the tbilisi drama theater, the irivan drama theater with great actors, i am happy that i went and... watched it, because it was simply such a level of theatrical performance, which later in general i didn’t see it in european theaters, well , there was just such a moment, you know, it’s such a thing in the theater, as we now have a theater renaissance, i saw great actors, what do you think, there were many people in the hall, well, of course, that’s it , this is in armenian, georgian languages, this was necessary with a translation, also in ukrainian, because it was shown in the franko theater, we already need it to be in good russian, here we go, in the right one, so that we feel complex. values, because we can't talk like that, it's very deep-seated, and i think the question should not be whether to talk or not to talk,

but how to talk, the way some adventurers out there who are trying to get on the air before any russian journalist or blogger to say something, so that i am close to those who are from moscow, i apologize, myself. bigger i worked for part of my journalistic work in moscow, and i, i have no enthusiasm if i appear on the air with someone from moscow, because i know the level for sure, i apologize, i constructed this level with my own hands and i didn’t complete it, because all of this was hit on the wrists by the chekistas , both latin and me, well , it’s just clear too, and that’s why i always talked and until... discussed this topic with people with whom i thought that i i can discuss those who will say that we do not agree with you, but do not prevent me from

expressing my point of view, and i will. by the way, i have to tell you that this speech is not only for pro-ukrainians, but i see a huge number of comments from belarusians, from kazakhstan, from lithuanians, from latvians, from armenians, from azerbaijanis, that's where i have mine an armenian colleague writes and an azerbaijani colleague writes, they write the same thing at the same time, you often see when armenians and azerbaijanis write the same thing with the same words, and you know why, because everyone? they got this, this, this, this superiority, but in order for it to be obvious, you need to talk to people as equals, because if you talk out of fear, then it seems that this superiority is obvious, that it has the right to exist, and if we understand with you that we are close ukraine will have a big, strong russia for decades to come,

which will treat us seriously. civilizational influence, so if we cannot deal with this russia on an equal footing, we will dissolve into it, and no matter how the war ends, here is the essence of the problem, we need to learn to be self-sufficient and self-confident, if the russians want to come here to talk to our audience, okay, the only question is how are we going to talk to them, if we pretend they're not there, well, we're not on an island, they are, they are. will be, their political processes will affect our political processes, we could ignore it until february 24 , 2022, until 2014, it was ostrich politics, and i feel like i have nothing to apologize for here, because i warned about it , i say, if you don't notice russia, it will notice you, well andrii, i am in these in the 1990s, he wrote from moscow for... many

serious ukrainian publications, for the youth of ukraine, then for the mirror of the week, for the den newspaper, and was one of the most popular newspapermen in our country. at some point, i felt that these topics on which i write are not interesting to anyone, because ukrainians eventually noticed that their capital is not in moscow, but in kyiv, and thank god, i can also write about ukrainian politics, in my nothing tragic happened to the career. but you understand, as soon as the ukrainians noticed that their capital was in kyiv, they immediately said: why are you telling us about russia? we are not interested in this russia, and we have enough of our own problems, and i began to tell them: listen , our main problem is not how competent our government is, what tariffs we have, what level of corruption we have and so on another, our

main. the problem is russia, because russia can deprive you of statehood, life and prospects, and millions of people, not that they never wanted to listen to it, but always looked at me, like them, and at those who said it, like a city crazy, here is mr. volodymyr agriska, who was on our air, he is one of the first ukrainian politicians and public figures there, who created an organization that studies russian, we had many such organizations, we never had them at all, we never had... never an institute of russia, although we had to study everything , to be ready: politics, the military-industrial complex, no, i'm sorry, not oleg tabakov's theater and not the same as in which amateur performances are staged in some opera and ballet studios in st. petersburg, it would somehow be possible without us , it can be done by german and italian scientists

to investigate, but what is it... going on in russian politics, social life and the army, this is a question of our self-preservation, that someone was interested in this when russia first developed it in the 90s, this same tsulin created the institute of the cis country , which was a subversive organization in all the former soviet republics, the head of the ukrainian branch of this institute, volodymyr kardila, do you remember the taco, of course with such a red peak and such a red color. such a red man , my god, wrote a book: donetska the kryvyi rih republic, and i, when he wrote it, i kept saying, he wrote it not by accident, what do you not understand if the head of the ukrainian branch, an institute of the cis country, who cannot write two words himself, because he cannot pronounce two words could, in his and red peak state, do such a thing, then he means...