how important is this label that we hang, calling it dodgers, how important are the meanings we attach to this concept, these meanings that are for those people we call dodgers, and for our society, and in general, what we have i mean under under under that word, because actually we, i would like in this program that we simply understand them, and that we do not put this stigma, such stamps. and simply understand, and so that they are also heard. again, i have a lot of friends who managed to cross the border on the 24th, or for example were abroad and never returned. i know that they are in a very severe depression there, for example, they are torn apart by this, the family, or to be a family, and the wife says, you have a child, or you have several children, i will not be there, you know to pull only on myself, and... and as far as i know,

those men are from my environment, they, for example, could not find themselves abroad, in general, it’s simple, and they cry, sometimes i came to see them there, and they just cried, but for example, there is a wife who very clearly keeps them there and says, no, i will not give you there, because in you are a small child, because you have a duty, yes, but there is a feeling in the man of this duty, that he feels a sense of guilt in him . that they are fighting right away, plus it seems to me that there is such a thing, we really heroize the military now, especially, well , they are really there for us, i don’t know, cyborgs, all these supermen, and he doesn’t feel it, how, like then, for example, now let's touch a little, how to deal with it, how to deal with it there, so that we understand them, and these posts that are there on facebook, on tik tok, on twitter, and you are sitting there abroad , and mine is fighting here,

and these accusations, they're even more and reinforce this sense of guilt, uh, you know , maybe before i get into the direct, like, evasiveness, and, as we called it, i'd like to say two more words about context, about the context of the war and what is the war in general, we, for the most part, all of us were born in the post-war period. after the second world war, and in general we were formed, grew up in such and such a fairly peaceful period, and when it seemed to us that this peace would last forever, that it was in such greenhouse conditions, in such a comfortable, such a post-war world, such a slightly postmodern world with such liberal values, with tolerance, with values ​​of self-realization, with... there is freedom

of choice, and we seem to be used to living in this reality, and that reality works well, but it works well when, and that psychological reality, when everything is good, when, when, as if survival values ​​are not actualized, but when survival values ​​are actualized, when war begins, this is a completely different psychological reality, it is a challenge, it existential challenge, war is something that is not asked of us, that... is not asked of our permission, is that is not asked of our attitude, it is a certain fact that life throws us into, it is a little, you know, it resonates a little with with such, with such, with such an existential approach of such philosophers, existentialists, yes, who generally believe that our whole life is a challenge, we find ourselves, we are thrown into this life, and nothing good awaits us in that life, there at the end of it. and that's why it's such a challenge that

we have to accept, and war is like that the challenge that each of us has to answer is a certain price that we all have to pay and everyone pays their price, some lose their homes, some lose their loved ones, some go to war, and accordingly, well lose some of their comforts, well also loses almost everything. and and and and and and with the risk of losing his life and and as if he is in this reality of war. someone does not accept it, for someone it is scary, someone is not ready and he becomes what we call dodgers, but evaders also pay their price, and this price is a shame, this feeling guilt, well, if we are talking about people who, who have some such, well, if we are talking about some such people rather some such... well

one hundred percent narcissistic structure or such a structure so sociopathic, then it doesn't matter to them, they, they don't have guilt, they do not have such a guilty conscience. yes, yes, if everything were equal , it doesn't matter to them, but people who, relatively speaking, if they have such a neurotic structure, then they pay the price, and this feeling of guilt, this shame, this depression is the the price they pay for the war, and we have to understand that really, they pay a price too, not just we can tell them over there, oh you're so nice, but on the other hand, i can talk now. not really, i understand that you are calling for tolerance, i am not calling for tolerance, you can say, maybe i will say such things, maybe such things, we are ready, such things are not quite the point that if we, as community, we as a society, we are

in such an extreme situation, in a situation of survival, and it is clear that in this reality society respects more those who go to give their lives for the survival of that society. and it is clear that this society reacts quite negatively to those people who, by the way, i am wondering if it is that, so ukrainians have the right values, it turns out that they are the values ​​of survival, and they, we can generally say the right, wrong, or here in this context we cannot use it, or it simply does not exist, i would not evaluate it from the position of right, wrong, we are so and so in our so-and-so. well, to such a psychoanalytical approach, we, we we are just trying to understand what is, we are not trying to pull, well, the reality in which we are, under certain, under certain patterns and under a certain assessment, whether it is right or wrong, this, well, this, what i see in our society, and this is what i also

feel, because i am a man, and i am here, and in addition to speaking from the position of a psychotherapist, i also speak as, as a man from the position a man who is not here now. at the front, and how did you also have this feeling of guilt, how did you cope with it, was it not there, i living person, yes, well, i'm curious, it was too, and how did you, for example, cope with him, or maybe some advice, how to cope with it, what to do at this moment, you know, we are the concept of guilt, and there is a concept of guilt. in psychotherapy, we consider such a neurotic feeling guilty, when i feel guilty in front of everything, in front of everyone, there, i don't know, in front of other people, there, if i say no to someone, then i feel guilty, and, well, it's so neurotic a sense of guilt,

yes, and this, this is considered something that interferes with living, but there is still a concept of some such existential guilt, when i did something, but did not do something. when there, i don't know, i walk by the river and see a child drowning there, i was scared, i didn't save her, and the child drowned, well, it's as if formally i didn't do anything, but i will live with that sense of rightness, live and will live with tim, but it's not just my neurotic sense of rightness, it's real existential guilt, uh, and that's the wound that, that's the one, if those who fight, they pay with their maiming, they pay with their lives, they pay with their ptsd , post-traumatic stressful debauchery. that guilt, and they continue to live with that guilt, and with such, perhaps , contempt in society, this is such

a reality, it is so, i would generally like to talk to you about my contempt, today i also have... dad my son oleksa, he used to be a lot, we had a lot of weapons at home, a jeep, and he used to go to the mountains a lot, that’s all, there was such a hero, he shot birds, and then the war came, and he was called up for this war, and he didn't leave, and he didn't take the little one with him, since we are separated, and i asked, i say, take at least a little oleks to himself. and i am asking you very much, because i couldn’t cope either, and so, from the first full-scale invasion, i went very deep into volunteering, went to the boys at the front, that is, i helped as much as i could, but i don’t know, i had such a simple need, i

somehow understood that it was possible if i didn't have oleksa, well, with his asperger's syndrome and with peculiarities, i would definitely, well, something would be there, well, maybe. perhaps i do not know, although i am a very comfortable person, great, and i remember my simple feeling of wild contempt for the father of my child, i could not... cope with him at all, that is , it haunted me, this contempt, and i simply did not know what to do with it, how should i cope, we have to cope, i say, you have me cure, maybe, maybe you will cure me in 15 minutes, how can i cope and maybe other people with this feeling of contempt for a person, by the way, for people whom we saw, who were such machomen, and who shot there, who drove on... i don't know who they were, they were ready to beat, excuse the faces to everyone, well

, you know, there are such, here they are, and they played dancing, playing airplanes, they were like that, i remember one of my acquaintances, he was always conquering such a virtual world, fighting, seizing lands, here comes a real war and everything, a person hides, instead of a person his wife walks there or girlfriend to the store, and he is even... afraid to go somewhere, even with his own child, and does not go to his parents there for easter and christmas, what should we do, what we are, here i am personally with that feeling of contempt, uh, you know, the question here is, what should i do with my feelings, yes, well, we are well, you know, we can’t control this person, but just like we can’t control that person, we can’t control ourselves either, you know, we can’t control ourselves... we would all like to control our emotions, your experiences and to ask yourself positive experiences and not

to have negative ones, but at least our approach, the psychodynamic, psychoanalytical approach says that we have no power over our own feelings, seriously, i thought i had power, no, my god , you are shocking me today, it's just that we, you know, are human beings a whole, a whole being, in us. there is a ratio, we have our emotions, we have a body, we have our needs, we have our social life, and when we say that i need to do something with myself, it is as if one part of us wants to do something else with the second part of us, as if we are divided in ourselves, but you know, the same laws that work in physics sometimes work in psychology, that is, the force of action is equal to the force of opposition, the more we want to do something with ourselves... to extinguish some feelings, their to change, to throw them out of oneself, especially and the part of us that we want to get rid

of is gaining weight, by the way, i felt it in myself, the more i tried, well, since most of us, well, i, for example , are christians there, and i also understood that we are all god -loving , that is, that in principle, i do not have any business to disparage, i this, i had the greatest pain that i conveyed this disdain. on my son's dad, but thank god my son has been going to a therapist since he was three years old, since he was three years old, he says: mom, my relationship with my dad and my relationship with my dad is my relationship with my dad, your emotions with dad, these are your emotions with dad, and he is so cool to me, as if, you know, he brought me back, because i didn't really know what to do with it, now i 've let go of this story a little bit, yes. and maybe somewhere i understood this fear of a person who thought: "god, the officer

knows how to shoot, those jeeps are needed there, but it just hurts me, because i drive those jeeps, i know how they repair them, and i, here there are many people who can repair, who know how to pass, how to quickly maneuver this car, and they are afraid, and they are afraid, and for me this contempt was just, just some kind of giant, you know, i remember that somewhere, thanking my son, he told me, of course, that i should go to a psychologist, because i was just torn at some point, but it was like that interesting with yourself, you know, there was this struggle with yourself, and i think that many people have it now, but you said, here is the key phrase now, how, how did you deal with it, you let it go, i let it go, you stopped controlling her? and this is probably the only thing we can do with our emotions, i'm not talking about manifestations now

emotions, that is, if i feel people, it doesn't mean that i have to go and beat someone there, yes, but if i feel people, there is either contempt or shame or guilt, i don't have to do anything about it, i have to give it a place and let it go, if it comes, then it is me, it is a part of me, let it be, that is , allow this feeling to be, in principle, that's how i feel. i'm real, i said, but i feel disrespected, listen, i don't respect you, i don't know what to do about it, but i still have a question for you, what should i do? you to men who, for example, they were abroad, to them it was bad there, they fell into a deep depression, they started taking antidepressants, they thought that they would come here, it would get better for them here, but they didn't get better, that is, they continued, you know, we won't look at depression there now, because it there will be a separate topic of ours of some kind, i don't know the podcast, actually

about how they can cope now, they got here in these shellings, but nothing further. they don’t do it, that is, they don’t volunteer, you can’t take antidepressants forever, and what should they do in a healthy man who used to go skiing there, who used to go in mountains, everything is fine with him, but psychologically he is not coping with what he is, and he says, for example, there were several, i'm just scared, i'm scared to go to the front, but here i also feel bad, what to do in such a case? to do something, to do something, what if, if a person is afraid to go to the front, he can go to volunteer, he can give most of the money there for some volunteer needs, yes, but as from depression, because we know, well, i was in clinical depression, i remember just my god, oh my god, new again day, i don't want to see anything, i don't want

to just live, and what's more, these news, and here everyone is looking at you, and this person there is not... not even seen by anyone, does not meet, that is, does not build his life at all, just how it froze, and maybe this is the freezing of this waiting, how about this, how how in general, how to include this person, you know, this click, uh, uh, you know, you now too, you, you now said the key phrase , you said clinical depression, but if we're dealing with clinical depression, when a person really can't get up, when a person cannot do anything, when he is paralyzed, when his will is paralyzed. when she is in such a really depressed state, that person can't do anything, just like the close and relatives of that person can't do anything, here and there the help of a psychiatrist and a psychotherapist can help, that is, in principle, we can advise this friend, i don't know, there is someone from our family there, just to advise to turn to such a

serious therapy, when we talk about clinical depression, it is clinical depression... it is treated with medication and psychotherapy, but how in general, are there any, i don’t know, opportunities to overcome this fear, and well, i know that go into your fear, we all say, but go into yours, it’s very fashionable now, go into your fear, well, how, how to go into one's own fear, to go into one's fear, to go, to go into one's fear is scary, how is it to go into one's fear, to go into one's fear is scary, i know, it's just me today, even this author's podcast, author's podcast, i went in your fear i know what it's like to be afraid, to be afraid to do something, to be afraid to say: yes, i have a son with autism, and to be afraid, or to say, i didn't manage, there, i broke up, i was scared, well, they said that i was very crazy, but here's the question, and if someone is not like that with someone, well, you have to have a character like yours, but here, here, again, here, again, life puts us

in front of a choice, we have fear. and if we retreat under the influence of that fear, we will pay for it, we will pay with shame, we will pay with the collapse of self-esteem, because we retreated, that is, if we do not go and, in this somewhere fear, we do not become brave, always there is this, we pay, yes we do we pay, and here and by the way, we pay with this depression, and in principle with the loss of life, taste. and it won't work, uh, because it's like we live, we pay for it with death, we love, we often pay for it with pain, oh, i don't know, that's because i've already talked with you about this topic, about pain and love, okay, i'm next,

can i invite you to this program about love and pain, it's very interesting, i 'll write it down, because it's so interesting, and i... yes, i'm fine, i just have one more thing , which i wanted to talk to you about, is now there tiktok, facebook, and for example, if you don't like this video, you are some kind of animal, for example, you have no feelings there, you have no dignity, and this is a video with the military, that is , why is this manipulation of people at all, and and this is also such an imposition of guilt, and i think that you should ask at all. own space with its own laws, and when someone there publishes, let's say, some story about a military man, we don't really know what... that person is motivated by, whether he is really motivated by some kind of pain or some desire to attract attention, as a rule, if people publish it like that, they are quite discreet, but

if there is such a plan that if you don't like it, then you are somehow bad, then this is already such a manipulation, it is already such as to put on this manipulation, respectively, because sometimes i look, i scroll and, uh, well , because again, when you were there in psychotherapy, you worked with a sense of guilt, again ... i advise everyone, by the way, because they said, it is true that in general the feeling of guilt is not useful, if the feeling of guilt is a reaction to real guilt, then it is, well, to some kind of real the act you did and in principle it's normal and it's fine, it's fine, a person who didn't feel, again, sociopaths don't feel guilty, any normal person, well, they have something to feel guilty about , each of us once did some not very good deeds, that is, we are not all saints, and this must also be understood, and the question is whether the feeling of guilt is neurotic, or

whether our feeling of guilt is really a reaction to a real guilt, all our all our if emotions to some extent play a regulator regulatory function, we need them so that we better understand what is good, what is bad, what is our place in society, where we are in a relationship. how we are in a relationship, how we are in a relationship with another person, society, and therefore to say that there is no feeling of guilt is not good, well, it is not quite so, it is the same as saying that i do not know, anger is not good, but this is also not so, as if, that is, all emotions are okay, if you understand them, and the question, of course, that you, well, maybe, because you said that we do not influence, maybe this choice, ugh, a very interesting one came to me yesterday just before ours, before our... a friend of mine, she is the wife of the mayor of the currently occupied city, and she remembers when the tanks immediately drove up to them, because they

lived not far from the crimea, and she and her husband put her in the car, they drove together in two cars, and they left skadovsk, and actually she says, i just started monitoring myself, i just shouted to my husband, go with us, i won't leave you here. "go, you have children, leave this city, it was like that, you have a lot here there were problems, go with us, and then i talk to her, and she tells me, i sit behind the wheel, and i see how my beloved husband, with whom i lived for 30 years, and they have a wonderful marriage, four beautiful children , i see how he is fighting, how he is standing on the bridge that they have to cross, and i just understood at some point, i approached him. and said: i 'm letting you go, i understand that you have a duty, and we'll manage, and she says: i 'm getting behind the wheel, and she didn't know how to drive, and

she drove to lviv almost from the south, i didn't let her go this steering wheel, and says, i just roared, because this wife was fighting in me , a woman who is the owner, but she understood that my husband, if i don't let him go now. he will not stay in the occupied city, where he is the head, the one where he will not close all issues, where he will not take out, evacuate his people, he will return simply castrated, realistically. that's right, you just said a very important thing, ah, the position of women, mothers, children, in relation to those men who decided to go to war. and when they take such a position that no, you are responsible to us, you must to be there with us, you have no right to drop it, this is an understandable position, it is clear that they

are afraid, it is clear that they are worried about that person, and they are worried about themselves, but this is such a position that, let's put it this way, gently speaking, is uninspiring if a man has decided that he must go, and this is his, this is his way, this is his way, way... so how do families cope, and these wives, women who let their loved ones go to the front, and so as not to manipulate this male, that desire to protect and be with the family, who love this family, and do not run away from it, uh, you know, uh, again, we return to two realities, the reality before the war and the reality of the war, when we are before the war, we function, or without war, we function in such a regime, uh, such a comfortable one, where everyone thinks somewhere about themselves, about their loved ones, and this is a completely different reality, when the reality of war comes, they are activated in us,

and this is natural, and... this is normal and it is right, very early archaic layers of the psyche, we call it archetypal layers of the psyche, where these images arise, the image of a warrior or the archetype of a warrior, a cossack, a cossack, a cossack, and you are a man, that is, we are everything, you are a defender, you are a man, i love you, and this is such a normal adaptive reaction of the psyche so that both people can survive and society can survive. and here it is very important to let yourself into these experiences, not to be afraid to understand that yes, you can be a warrior, and for a woman to understand that your husband is a warrior, he goes because it is his destiny, not because he is, it is his destiny, this is his way, this, you know, i talked now, well, i talk a lot with the military, with the families of the military, and among our military now very popular, well, how popular, they seem to think about their fate through the lens of scandinavian mythology, very interesting, and i know about

them. yes and it is very yes it is cool in general there are a lot of runes there, well, they like it, but this is what makes them feel a connection with that archetype, with the archetype of a warrior, and this and that are very important, and the same for women, well just as a man accepts his fate as a warrior, but a woman and a family, well, they are probably forced, again , war does not ask anyone, we are simply put in front of... the fact, war is stronger than us, we just have to remember that, we can't fight against it, and it's the same, we can fight, yes, well actually fight with the enemy, and, but with this phenomenon itself, practically, it's such a huge system, and , war, we cannot oppose it in principle, unfortunately, yes, we each make this choice, a choice, as always, has some losses, and, unfortunately, now we, ukrainians, are facing,

in front of... these, these losses, so i want to sum up our conversation like this, what would you say and advise to people who are currently living with this feeling, maybe guilt, they can't dare, dare to go into this fear, some kind of very short message from you to them, you know, it won't be comforting, well, and it won't be some kind of... probably the kind that we all pay, and you know that you also pay, you tell me that, you can finish the program, well, you also pay, you all pay, but i would like something more, you know, optimistically, to me, i just said at some point that i now ukrainians are very lacking in faith, ugh,

very lacking. faith, and actually, i have one just going to be a message to everyone, go into that fear and maybe you're afraid that something won't be there, and, well, you'll lose something, and as paul said, we're all going to lose something, but maybe we have to take this step , to save this country and this future for our children, and it's better than you to get drunk, throw yourself on antidepressants, alcohol, drugs, weed, what is now, or sit abroad and be a cleaner, not realize yourself, there, it is better, perhaps, really, to return here and stand, and, you, not necessarily, you immediately you will get to zero, yes, you can, perhaps yours, english language has these skills, yes, opportunities, they, they will be needed here, and here we will a little, at least replace those who

are already with advanced ones. without a rotation for two years in a row, which has already paid a very high price, and maybe it will give you, you know, a breath, or, of course, we all fear death, and maybe it's worth remembering the blow that, for some reason, death i i'm not afraid, i, yes, i remember how difficult my path is, and sometimes ukrainians have to be so, so, i want today... you thank you very much, pavlo dzikovskii, a psychotherapist in the field of psychoanalysis, a clinical psychologist, was with us today, today on fm halychyna we talked about evasions and feelings of guilt, thank you very much to everyone who listened to us, i am solomiya chubai, we will hear from you in a week with a new, interesting subject, thank you.