i greet you, this is svoboda live, my name is vlasta lazur. in the midst of the mobilization law, border guards are detaining men trying to cross illegally every day. through the mountains or across the river. border guards published these shots at the end of may. the video shows four men trying to cross the border with romania through the tisza river. two from lviv oblast, one from ternopil oblast and another from transcarpathia. on four , they received two extra laps from the organizers of the crossing. the organizers themselves escaped, at least that is what the border guards claim. and how much did people reach the shores of neighboring states? is the tisza a river that separates? from

hungary and romania. according to romanian border guards, at least 12,700 ukrainians illegally entered romania as of february 24, 2022. radio liberty received this data at the request of the border police of romania. there are no similar data from hungary, but the government of this country previously stated that budapest will not extradite men of military age to ukraine. and in principle, similar statements were heard from other capitals as well. in the cases themselves men die when trying to cross the river. on the last day of may, the border guards reported the body of another man, his body washed ashore in the village of krechu-nesti on the romanian side. in total, the bodies of ten drowned people were found in tisza in may, and dozens more since the beginning of the invasion. the exact number of those who died as a result of attempts to cross the river is unknown. nevertheless, judging by the numerous reports of arrests of men trying to cross the border, contraband, which once

revolved around cigarettes in these parts, has turned into business related to the crossing of men abroad. for example, these four, who planned to weave a yew tree with two children's inflatable circles, had to pay $400 each for such a service. our colleague maryan kushnir visited transcarpathia, his report from the banks of the tysa, see below. here, here it is, the yew, through which they strive. a lot of people leave ukraine, in fact, everything is not so simple, there is a great depth, and in the middle there is a big current, and as they say, border guards often, it is a very, quite dangerous story, when they do it, moreover, border guards they claim that it is extremely difficult to cross this border unnoticed, on the one hand, border guards patrol the territory and see violators, and on the other hand... there are also services that

control illegal crossings. we are in close proximity to the adjacent side of hungary and perform the task of protecting the state border here. the line of the state border passes directly through the tisza river, which we can see now. at the moment, we perform tasks in the border outfit, border patrol, and patrol the area of ​​our unit. which us confidant, there were cases when we, being on patrol, both at night and during the day, directly pulled out its citizens from the river, some tried to swim across in a boat, some tried to swim across with a life jacket, but timely actions were noticed in time attempts to cross the state border.

it was really surprising when several citizens tried to cross the state border along the tisza river in such, you know, old tires, in long circles like that, firstly, they barely fit there, and secondly, if the current, it cover it up a little bit, and it would flip over, and we went from, you know, a comical situation to a tragic situation, but watching them run with them and directly try to... get out into the water and swim, it was pretty fun. i will tell you about the last case, when we saved a young guy, he himself is from a mountain village, but he was crossing alone and crossing at night, it was very cold, crossing the river bothar, and there he got very hypothermic, his limbs stopped moving, here we just started hear something scraping in bushes, well, whether it's animals or someone else, we always check, and when we checked, it was this guy. we, of course, pulled him

out of this river, wrapped him in a sleeping bag, well, we were in the car, so we always have warm things with us, wrapped him, took him to the... department, after the department, they already provided medical care in the hospital in the city of vynohradov, so i can say that if we had not patrolled at night then, perhaps it would not have been happy news for his mother, but a tragedy, the tisza river, but it is already the border of romania, well in fact, this is already the shore, this is romania, in these areas people try to cross... this river, but i suggest you see just how fast it is and from afar it would seem shallow , you can cross it, in fact no, it is deep, the current is very powerful, cross it extremely difficult, but today on the romanian border, directly in romania, the body

of a person who tried to cross the border was caught from the tisza river, this will be the 30th 30th... who died in the tisza river while trying to cross the border. given that persons intending to illegally cross the state border, they do not choose a place more convenient for crossing the border, because they are told that it is a little shallow, but we can see that here it is, there may be a river near the shore. it is not deep, but if you go further, there is already a very big current, and the plus here is that the river in this area also has an underwater current, and you look at it from above, you get the impression that it is easy to cross it about to pass, but when you go a little deeper, the underwater

current can lead you in another direction, and you have the impression that the underwater the terrain is rocky, a person can slip, it happens, he can hit his head and then they can be towards him. consequences, the last cases were that individuals simply collect a lot of things by themselves, such big ones, you know, like bauls, and when they approach the current, directly to the horn, they already see its character and they simply catch them, if we already catch them on the spot with these things, they think that it is all very easy to come by, as they are told, the water may be knee-deep or waist-deep, but in fact it is all if they, well, they are being misled in order to simply use them as if to ... beat, well, to have some benefit from them. oleksandr fedienko, people's deputy, servant of the people and representative of the committee on national security, defense and intelligence, joins our broadcast. good evening. good evening, country, good evening, studio. oleksandr, do you have

an answer to the question of how it happens that during the war people prefer to risk their lives and try their fate in the thousands rather than join the army. what's going on? perhaps the state, or you, as legislators, did something wrong? look, i think that first of all, it must be admitted, informational propaganda has failed from the point of view of explaining to the citizens of ukraine, well at least at least articles 17-65 of the constitution, that this is the defense of the country - this is the duty of the citizen of ukraine, the protection of the territory of ukraine. more, i'm finishing now, more than that. taking into account the fact that, well, usually in the fact that in various telegram channels, by the way, uncontrolled channels, in the mass media , attention was mostly paid to, you know, such actions, well, that is, how,

after all, such a murderous the situation directly on the elbe on the line of combat society did not look at other factors at all. which are pro-war, war is not only the trenches, which are constantly demonstrated, there are 10 percent, by the way , 15 out of the entire number of military personnel are in those trenches, most of those who died, by the way, in the tisza river, maybe never i would have been on the forefront, but because everyone in the information field, you know, was in the mood for those likes, for reposts, advertisers are attracted, of course, by...views the content was thrown into the information field for the most part and continue to be thrown into the information field, by the way, specifically about the war, that which is directly related to the death of our military, or the killing by

our military personnel, the occupiers, on the part of the defense of our territory. oleksandr, i still did not understand, you said that there was a failure of communication regarding the mobilization of politics , not the parliament, not the people's deputies. and there is a corresponding institution, which is the state, as it is called there, state information, i remember, i do not know such state institutions forms, well, look, there are deputies who can, who pass a law on mobilization, can communicate it, there is a government that writes a law on mobilization, could communicate it, there is the office of the president, where the supreme command works and the government cannot communicate public fear, you understand, to communicate the fear of society, not to mock the fear of society, because i communicated the law on mobilization, i apologize for all the months, all the weeks that it was, explaining each article, but when a citizen of ukraine has fear, i cannot... comment like that fear any law, no matter how we wrote it, the parliament, the cabinet or the president's office,

you see, that's why there is fear, and this fear should have been communicated by channels such as yours, explaining to our society that, look, war is not only murder, war is primarily defense, it is a sacred duty, and that not every soldier goes to the front line to the trenches, because there are a huge number of other specialties that are needed there in order for our... armed forces of ukraine could exist, communicate, work, or i understood you correctly, that you, as a deputy who adopts this law, votes for this law, are not obliged to communicate it to your constituents, you misunderstood me, moreover, i clearly told you, i have a recording right now, i later i will add it separately, i personally, as a people's deputy of ukraine , communicated with society for many weeks and months, explaining and elucidating each article of this law. well, what to do, so what is the way out now? we see in

the news that every day the border guards catch someone either in the river or in the mountains, what's up with that now to do and who should do what with it? i have to do with this, i want to emphasize once again that there is something internet or not, yes, i hear you, yes, i hear you, i see, yes, uh, you hung it up, look, i want to emphasize once again, we must change first of all , after all , now... i will go again and see who is in charge there, well, we have a regulator there that takes care of television channels, after all , we still have a state institution of state information, which i remember, and they can do you mean ukrinform, or i just don't understand it another story, this is a private information company, they are this state, this is a state agency should take care, we have a regulator that takes care of direct television channels. the national commission, and there is also a state information resource that

directly takes care of the formation of state policy, moreover, i want to emphasize that at one time on that base the so-called so -called policy on countering ipso information, i.e. propaganda by the russians, who are trying to influence the society, but it was all held, you see, the deputies accepted it all cabin laws. adopted all the resolutions, i remember the gryzhyn ones were highlighted, but this information propaganda was never countered by the russian cat, ukraine completely failed the information campaign regarding mobilization, no, not like that, let's not manipulate, ukraine did not fail the information campaign, what about failed information company regarding the explanation of what war is, you see, they immediately started saying about war that it was a trial then. we have how the paradigm of thinking of our society has developed, if a citizen of ukraine receives a summons, everything is there at once, a summons, he

is sent there, mistakes and so on, i want once again, because we really hear a lot of such messages from real people, when people, because the percentage that is thrown into our information field is purely that percentage when our famous soldiers, unfortunately, die, and the other percentage is about the heroes of our soldiers, who will remain alive, what are you... your duty, who conduct successful combat operations, for some reason do not appear, for some reason do not jump in, because it is not interesting, you understand , not interesting, maybe there, what does it mean, which means it does not interfere, listen to the government, wait, wait, you are a representative of the defense and intelligence committee, before that, i think you were on the digital transformation committee, if i am not mistaken, if we are talking about some information resources that are controlled by the government, well, there is... telethon the only news, well, in a word, there are a lot of platforms where the government, legislative, executive, office

of the president, can explain and explain the mobilization process, that is, to say that these platforms do not exist is not true, they exist speculation, i answer you, unfortunately, i can here you will read a whole lecture about the preference of information channels, as the same statistical data show, more than 80% of ukrainians, for some reason , trust most of the unidentified tv. channels, than any other information resource, even radio liberty, now i can look at the populmeters after this one and see what percentage of ukrainian citizens watch in general, by the way, radio liberty has a level. trust, but this is another story, so the problem is that our society trusts purely unidentified information channels, such as in telegram, yes, they cannot be blocked, prevented , etc., they simply exist, we have free access to the internet, relatively speaking, and the whole society is on unspecified information channels, which is up to a thousand to illegal

border crossing , these are mountains and water, so what to do, how to change it, so that news about it does not appear every day. that men flee the country during the war and in the midst of mobilization, they will flee, no matter how hard you and i try to do it, they will already flee, because there has been almost 2.5 years of war have already created a paradigm in our society of conscripts that if they receive a bandage, then they will, then they will die in the war, and this fear, which is in every citizen of ukraine, in every person, unfortunately, sometimes takes up , because after all, there are men who are able to go and defend her... their land, their wife, their children, well, unfortunately, there are fewer and fewer of them, that is , there are no normal, adequate frameworks for this process. exists, you state, you state, engage in, perhaps to measure how many men we have left from conscripts who are ready to fulfill their constitutional duty 17-65

article of the constitution and go to defend their territory, their country and... and do you have, do you have the data in your committee, for example, maybe you can't divulge them, but is it information about men of draft age who illegally left or sailed out of the country? this is not the profile of our committee, this is the profile of the law enforcement committee, because it refers to the issues of either kuapu or kku of the criminal code, but it is the same as if it refers to issues of defense and intelligence, no, it does not apply to issues of defense and intelligence, the issue of defense and intelligence occupies. purely conscripts who are registered, i know about these, i know, for example, from today's meeting, how effectively the current law on mobilization, which was adopted, has already worked, that is, we saw that number of conscripts those who have already registered, received treatment, and so on, and those of military obligation or reservists who

there up to 25 years, i say, who go abroad, they violate the current legislation. of ukraine, a violation of the current legislation of ukraine - this refers to the law enforcement committee, and not to the committee of national security, defense and development. mr. fedienko, i would like to ask you to stay connected, because we still have a few topics to talk about, and we are joined by andrii demchenko, the spokesman of the state border service, by phone, because there is no light, as far as i understand mr. spokesman . i greet you, can you hear us? greetings, studio. andrew, look, i remember that the bbc published data around the summer of last year. that almost 20,000 men have fled ukraine since the beginning of the war to avoid the army, the data was announced at the time, that more than 21,000 were detained while trying to cross the border, going back to today's date, today's time, what are the statistics for now, or do you have it well, actually, i can only note that attempts

to illegally cross the border, leaving them, remain daily, as if along... the green section of the border, i.e. outside the limits of the clause about pass, there are also attempts to illegally cross the border at checkpoints, i.e. on legal routes where you can cross the border, but there violators try to use either fake documents, or hide in the design features of vehicles, or try to bribe state border inspectors services, at the same time, the majority of attempts and... in fact, this situation has not changed, it remains along the green part of the border, and the majority of such attempts are on the border with romania and moldova. i still, i still put mine again question. according to the romanian border police, 12,700 ukrainians have crossed the border illegally since the beginning of the full-scale invasion. we contacted the border police and they gave us a specific number. do you have a specific figure on how many citizens of ukraine

have either left abroad illegally or those who will not leave. but you detain them and keep such statistics, you use the data that the border police of romania gave you, well , actually, these are the data that they can give you, from our side, i noted that such data on illegal border crossing attempts, they remain daily, and unfortunately we do not see the number to decrease, but fortunately we do not see either ... such an increase significantly, in terms of illegal border crossing attempts, but at the same time such attempts border guards are prejudiced every day, especially along the green part of the border. andrii, how many, how many, which ones, what number are we talking about, how many people did you detain during the full-scale war? on some days this amount may be more, on some days

it may be less. actually, i told you that such data, they are not disclosed, they are closed, or i do not understand, such attempts, such attempts remain daily, and in fact there was not a single day when the border guards did not detain violators. of the state border, who are trying, but this information is secret, regarding the number, it is closed, i understood you correctly, that is why you do not voice it, we do not voice such data, because in fact, i note once again, such days, such facts remain daily, you the data are not voiced, but as far as i understand, you have them, and then the next, next question, you you say that these attempts remain daily, do you allow, or maybe there are concrete data again, facts? the facts are that, in these schemes, when men cross or swim across the ukrainian border, the border guards themselves are somehow involved in these schemes. maybe

there were, yes, yes, please, every time there is an attempt to cross the border illegally, or we know the schemes under which both the offenders themselves act, and those organizers who facilitate people to cross the border illegally with... always our operatives employees in cooperation with other law enforcement agencies are conducting the necessary verification to establish the complete scheme and the involvement of all persons in it, both organizers and accomplices, including the involvement of state border service employees, fortunately for such cases when our border guards are involved in such attempts, and... . they can be said to be few in number, but of course there are such cases when employees of the border department

are involved in helping people to cross the border illegally, andrii, what rates are also applied to them the responsibility to bring our employees to justice, in accordance with... current legislation, in case they violate the norms of their professional activity, and actually will also bear responsibility in accordance with the norms of current legislation. andrii, what rates did you say at the beginning that they are trying to bribe the border guards, so can you share the data that they offer, what do you mean by bribery? well, if we talk about the refusals of the border guards to... about bribery, which i already mentioned, then actually there are a lot of them more than those cases when border guards

are involved in the illegal transportation of people across the border, and in fact, our servicemen refuse attempts to provide undue benefits, including in the amount that they were offered $5,000 and... these amounts may be smaller or larger, but in fact, i emphasize once again that our servicemen understand well their responsibility, their standards of responsibility, and in fact refuse the attempts to take undue advantage that we offer for my last question, andrii, please, if you can briefly, and are there any statistics, how many cases or cases were recorded when border guards participated in... topics? this is in principle, if so, generally speaking, dozens of our servicemen are involved in attempts

to illegally transport people across the border, instead, hundreds of servicemen of the state border service refused to take undue advantage, who offered violators for the fact that the border guards let them in illegally. across the border andriy demchenko, spokesman of the state border service, was on radio svoboda. oleksandr fedienko, people's deputy and representative of the defense committee of the verkhovna rada, remains in touch with us. oleksandr, could you please tell me whether ukraine somehow plans to return those men who left illegally. perhaps some similar initiatives have now appeared or may appear in the verkhovna rada? yes, before everyone answers this question, i will still answer that the main task of the state committee of teleo is to participate in ensuring the formation and implementation of state policy. that state information policy forms, including? and

people's deputies, and the government, and the president's office, well, what do you mean no? look, the parliament is a legislative branch of government, the only one, by the way, yes, according to the constitution, of course, the presentation of laws can still be there, the cabins and the office of the president, the president, rather, but the institution of parliamentarism is a representative function of voters, we work with voters, explaining that they need a law, yes, but we do not form an information policy, these are slightly different things. if let's go back to your question with about that, about how to bring men back from abroad, look, well , let's be honest, i always say frankly, can we get men from abroad, most likely not, it's impossible as long as the war is going on here and while the hostilities are going on, will the children and women return, most likely not, because security... is a priority,

moreover, as far as i can see, they are now trying to take out the teenagers, who will soon reach the age of 16 there, in order for her , to stay there, to stay, and look, and i am once again convinced that it is already possible that even the people's deputies are guilty here, by the way, regarding the fact that it is possible to revise some existing laws in order to protect, and society understood that well... there will not be any kind of full-scale mobilization there, from which, by the way, we are not immune, because now the weight of the scales is either there will be physically ukraine, or there will not be physically ukraine, you understand, so here is the story, so no, they will not return, i i always said it, i will say it will our partners do everything to force the return of all ukrainians, perhaps there were talks about it, but again, i

am not sure that they will return, after all, they will come. of all countries further. oleksandr, i have one more question for you, as for, including for an it specialist: do you use the reserve plus application. on one of the phones that i use for various applications, testing and so on, where there is no personally identifiable information. of course, i installed the reserve+plus app, i looked. well, you have to to work, but at least you have updated your data to the reserve plus or not, whether you are in the military , i personally went to... the central committee, stood in line, passed the vlk, spent three days on it, realized that the 86th year, as it was, and remained, when i did the same thing at one time, well, you and you as deputies did not change anything, you see, no, why was it sad, i returned, it was already held, the relevant meetings were held, yes given the appropriate instructions, we are improving the robot, but it is impossible to do, you know, that's what i did,

it needs to be reformed not only. personnel , the entire history of the central central committee, it is necessary to reshape thinking, to digitize a lot of processes, which , unfortunately, are still in piles of paper, it takes time, but at the same time, we also have a war going on in parallel, you understand, i know, such i am impressed by your frankness, you are an expert, you say, i installed the reserve plus application on a phone where i do not have various personal data, well, that is, you have two phones, on one of them, where you test applications, you installed reserve is a plus, people mostly don't have two phones, so what about you? as an it specialist , you advise not to install a reserve, plus, i didn’t understand, you just don’t need to catch me on this, as they say, no, look, i, as an it and cyber security specialist, am pathologically paranoid, and this is normal, you understand, someone who deals with information security throughout his life e- well, i have something to hide, i have information with limited, well, i won't say limited access, yes, information that might be there, no, wait, well, that's if we

're talking. i currently hold a position where i have information that may be sensitive to our enemy, because you mean that it is better not to set the reserve plus, if you have any sensitive information on your phone, on the contrary, i tell all my friends, look, if you don't want to waste time go to tsc, update the data, you can install the application, i once again want a danger in it from the point of view of vulnerability, i did not see that it... was made on the basis of another student platform, well, this is a question for the developers and the ministry , i and the issue of vulnerability, vulnerabilities, this is a slightly different question, you have a bounty there, and there is a question of vulnerability of the application, it may happen that there will be a data leak, look, i know, i had a nova poshta application, there was a leak, i had a private bank application, there was a leak, i would have an appendix, another medical one, there would be like this,