of the sea of ​​azov along this unfinished railway, or by freighters, it will be a very long, very problematic way under the shelling of ukrainian artillery, under the strikes of drones and so on, and then 2 million people who are in crimea, it will be a problem for them, well that's why what is there approximately, well, the population was 2 million before the war until the 14th year, and approximately 1 million were brought by the russians after the occupation, how many there are, well, it is difficult to say, and it will all be... it runs along the coast of the sea of ​​azov, well, that is, it is for the enemy will not just be a problem, but simply a catastrophic problem from the point of view of logistics will deliver goods there. thank you, mr. pavle , for the conversation, it was pavlo narozhny, a military expert, and we, friends, continue to work live on the tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are watching us live there now. please join our pages, and also take part in our survey, today we will... ask about this, whether

you understand the principle of reservation from mobilization in ukraine, yes, no, everything is on youtube quite simple, if you have your own opinion, please leave it in the comments below this video, we are interested to know your opinion, if you watch us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote if you understand the principle of booking from mobilization 0800 211 381, no 0800 211 382. all calls to these numbers are free, vote, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. next , oleksandr khara, expert on foreign security policy, defense strategies center, diplomat, will be on our air. mr. oleksandr, i am you congratulations, thank you for being with us today. good evening, mr. sergey, congratulations. let's start our conversation first with what biden said. a different interpretation, i already read and listened to it today. regarding his statements about nato, ukraine and

nato. in an interview with the magazine, he stated that ukraine's membership in nato is not necessary to guarantee peace, quoting what joe biden said. peace looks like a guarantee that russia will never, never, never, ever occupy ukraine. this is what peace looks like. and this does not mean that nato is a part of it nato. it means that... that we have the same relationship with them as we do with other countries where we supply arms so that they can defend themselves in the future, but that's not the case, if you notice, i was the one who said that i am not ready to support the natovization of ukraine. well, that's quite a difficult quote, and i don't know if the journalists presented what biden said correctly, maybe he did say that, but at least we translated it like this. does this mean that... ukraine will not be in nato very soon,

and these bilateral security agreements have to guarantee ukraine's support in the war with russia. well, first of all, the translation is absolutely accurate, i read the original article, and it is clear that this is not exactly a positive signal for ukraine before the day of the summit in washington, it is clear that we expected half a step forward, we understand. that we cannot be accepted into nato now, but we definitely would like clear political guarantees that something would be more than nato's doors being opened for ukraine, and of course that this is a holiday for our enemies, because they will be motivated on the one hand continue this war since understand that nato will not protect ukraine, that we will not become nato members in the near future. well, on the other hand, from a pragmatic point of view, it is clear that... this administration

adheres to such a crisis management approach, and not a strategy that would lead to the victory of ukraine and to the entry of ukraine in a full , internationally recognized, i mean territorial, let's say, in nato ranks. it is a pity that this is so, and it is clear that joseph biden believes that these agreements, which we have already signed with a number of countries, and are going to to sign with the united states, there are those who help ukraine in this war, i hope that they do not perceive them as security guarantees, because in fact they cannot be such, but it is clear that in these conditions this is the maximum that we can do to hope, that is, to strengthen us now in this war and to strengthen us in the future, so that we are able to deter russian aggression after its end, well, that is, if we make a forecast for the washington summit that will take place.

jubilee summit in july, obviously a lot of right words will be said there about the alliance and about how it protects everyone and everything involved. alliance, then this is the warning to zelensky, which was written about by the western media, so that he does not torpedo the issue of ukraine's accession to nato at the summit, it is obvious, it corresponds to reality. yes, i understand the position of the ukrainian authorities regarding the peace summit and nato, we are trying to increase the pressure on our partners, on those who are afraid of something. of course, it's the united states, but also germany, and in the case of the peace summit, we try to involve as many countries as possible so of the so-called global south, and of course we would like to see joseph biden, although i understood from the mass media that

the vice president will be present at the summit, as well as the national security adviser, well, it may not be bad, because the level of the vice president is very good, but to be honest, i... was more glad to see mr. blinkin, he is probably the only hawk in the current administration, and i understood that it would be a positive signal for ukraine, but in any case, i understand the ukrainian authorities, which are trying at this moment to use in order to get the most from the nato summit, so that we can go on repeating the usual phrases that nato, nato's doors are open, that ukraine belongs to nato, that... there will be a moment in the future when we will become nato members. of course, we would like more than these already somewhat, shall we say, far-fetched phrases. at this peace summit that you mentioned, which starts on june 15th in switzerland,

china will not be there, but there will be, as you said, vice president kamala harris and national security adviser jake sullivan, what what do you think beijing actually wants by refusing this meeting, is it a game for putin or a game to still be an influential pole of the world? china has its own interests that do not coincide with the interests of ukraine and our partners who support us. by and large, not all interests of the russian federation coincide with china, but in this case they definitely do. china is the advocate of the russian federation, it is trying to create an alternative platform, i understand that the chinese fear that there will be such a large international coalition that will already fix certain positions of the ukrainian peace plan, and of course it will be much more difficult then to help russia choose

some of its own positions there. china, in fact , the day before, or rather, it seems, somewhere last week, there was a minister's visit. there was a joint statement of the foreign affairs of china to brazil, where they said, well, the right things on the one hand, but they definitely do not apply to russia, that you cannot aim at civilian objects, you cannot kill the civilian population, everything is clear here, but russia does not comply with international humanitarian law, and that's it it was about the fact that there should be such a platform where the russian federation can also be present, we understand that there is no sense in this, because russia will block any... decision that could be made at such a summit, and most importantly we understand that the russian federation is not interested in peace, it is interested in ukraine recognizing itself as defeated and accepting new territorial realities, well, the list of what moscow wants is

the blocking of our membership in nato, i am sure that there will be requirements and regarding of the european union, as well as many other things that would actually dismantle ukrainian statehood. that is, the chinese in principle support it, they would like this war to end, but on the other hand , they cannot allow russia to lose this war and will support it at all costs. thank god that so far they do not support with weapons, but they support very much both with ordinary trade and with dual-purpose goods, and above all with microchips that make it possible to build missiles and weapons, that is, china is playing its a game that, in principle... in principle, plays along with mr. putin, and also, as we heard that president zelensky during his stay in singapore, accused the chinese side not only of tolerating this summit, not participating, but also and affects other players, well, we know that saudi arabia

is not going to be there, probably the same brazil, because here the positions with china also coincide, i think that there are still countries where china has... influence, and of course they would not like to see these countries on ours peace summits, by the way, john kirby, adviser, rather, spokesman of the white house. of national security says, despite the fact that joseph biden will not be there at this summit, he says that there is no leader in the world who would support ukraine more and more decisively than joe biden, regardless of who will represent the united states at this summit, which, by the way, will be represented by the vice president of the united states of america, it cannot be claimed that we somehow, in some way , withdrew from supporting ukraine, well, well... it is clear that the most important thing in this story, to understand what the final of this peace summit will be,

what do you think, mr. oleksandr, what do you think will be a success for ukraine, is it already a success for ukraine that they agreed to delegate their representatives there from 106 countries of the world, is this already self-success, or some decisions or communiques, resolutions? which will be adopted at this peace summit, when can we say that this peace summit was a success? well, you know, the main task of the ukrainian side for this summit is actually to stimulate our partners, who have supported us until now, we must constantly do this to do, one should not look at the support of even the countries of the free world as something that is by default, and the most important thing is to connect the countries of the so-called... global south, it is very important that we actually fix, you know, nail down certain

points , which we are not going to deviate from during the next summits or negotiations, and of course during possible negotiations with the russian federation, i do not believe that this can happen under the current regime, but in any case, we really need subscribed to our certain points these country and we will have a moral one. diplomatic, shall we say, leverage so that they do something about it, and the most important thing is that ukraine has its own peace plan, anyone else, including china, does not have such a plan, they have a political position on the settlement of the ukrainian crisis, as they call russian armed aggression, and no one else has any realistic proposals on how to do it, the russian federation cannot put forward such a plan for obvious reasons, because it will not... comply with the norms and principles of international law, and of course that it to fix, it will simply be

impossible to fix, therefore it is important for us to consolidate support, especially to attract those who have not yet expressed such support, with the possibility of putting pressure on them later, and actually establishing behind them a single peace initiative, a real peace initiative, that the ukrainian peaceful the plan does not... contain anything that would not be in international law, in the un charter, the final act of the csce, and other international documents to which the russian federation, china, and other countries are parties, which have already said that will not take participation in this summit, or they may refuse to participate in this summit, so this is an important thing, important from the point of view of consolidating support for ukraine's position and, well, actually supporting ukraine. not only with words and declarations, but with weapons, weapons, humanitarian

aid, economic aid and isolation of the russian federation. another important event, mr. oleksandr, or rather, it is stretched out in time, this event is the granting of permission to the armed forces of ukraine to use western weapons for attacks on the russian federation. we have already seen how hymars works on installations s-300, s-400, which is located. in the belgorod region, which are shelling kharkiv. the minister of defense of the netherlands, kaisa ollohgren, said that her country will give ukraine permission to use the transferred f-16 fighter jets, including for strikes on targets on the territory of russia. we apply the same principle to aircraft as to all other arms shipments. since we handed it over to ukraine, ukraine decides how to use it. we only ask for compliance. international law and the right to self-defense, as defined by the un charter, this

means they can use the weapon to hit military targets it needs to hit in self-defense. mr. oleksandr, what happened so radically in the perception of our western partners of the russian-ukrainian war that they took such a step: the shelling of kharkiv, the offensive on kharkiv oblast, is it possible... any additional data that they have there, intelligence data that they have received? well, first of all, it should be said that this is a completely unsuccessful strategy, which from the very beginning. applied to us and the russian federation in washington, what we cannot strike on russian territory, and i want to remind you that in 22nd year we were not allowed to strike on the occupied crimea, they were afraid of the escalation of the russian federation, but first of all ukraine was crossing these red lines, we did not violate our agreements with our partners,

we did not use western weapons on russian territory, we fought with what we had, and also not... ukrainian, actually russian freedom fighters crossed the state border with the russian federation and there restored order in the regions adjacent to ukraine, this one story, that is, when we as an actor act, another story is how the russian federation acts, how it escalates, and in fact, this is the story, starting in 2014, which i constantly remind that the first serious sanctions. that were introduced to russia not in connection with the illegal annexation of crimea, not with the crimes committed by the russian federation on the territory of the donetsk-luhansk region, but in connection with the beating of malaysian wallpaper. that is, every time the russian federation commits some incredible crime, our western partners are horrified and cross the red lines

of fear of their inner fear that russia may somehow escalate the situation. if we talk about this one. the permission itself, the only thing is that there are different interpretations of this in the public space, we do not know whether this applies to the entire territory of the russian federation, along our border or only around the kharkiv region, but it is clear that washington has absolutely realized that the failure to supply ukraine with weapons for almost half a year gave the russians an advantage, they grouped and threatened kharkiv, i... no i am talking about the fact that they are actually erasing it every day with their bombardments, and of course, not wanting, let's say, to give the russians a head start and the opportunity to seize certain positions around kharkov, such a decision was made, which is a half-hearted decision, but thank god that although such that we could destroy the accumulation of forces and means of the russian

federation, which were then used on our territory north of kharkiv. i hope that there will be no other terrible tragedies related to ukraine, so that eventually the american partners will overcome the remnants of all these fears and have already allowed ukraine to fight in full force, using all available means, especially since ukraine, firstly, has never violated its agreements with its partners, that is, it has not used western weapons in a way that we were not allowed to, secondly... our strikes on russian territory have never violated international humanitarian law, we do not destroy civilian infrastructure, we strike only at those objects that you vote for, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. further we have on communications ihor reiterovych, political scientist, head of political and legal programs of the ukrainian center

for social development. mr. igor, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. good evening. let's start ours. talking about how ukraine is currently experiencing strikes on the energy sector of the state, and we have long-term consequences of these strikes, the russian federation has been actively trying to break the energy sector of ukraine for the past several months, and we see what is happening in cities and villages, turning off the lights. because there is not enough electricity for everyone, and in the current conditions, what do you think the world can do, given that what the russian occupiers are doing is leading to a humanitarian disaster in ukraine, and this is a violation of all absolutely international rules and conduct of war ,

well, to a certain extent, this can even be considered as one of the manifestations of genocide, if you look very carefully at the documents that regulate this issue, then such things are directly related to this, and what can the world do? well, there are three components here, the first component - it is clear, the maximum assistance to ukraine in the restoration of generation, the maximum decentralization of this generation, that is, the funds that we are currently receiving for the restoration of this entire energy infrastructure, they should be significantly increased, and in principle , here the countries should focus on giving ukraine as much as possible. .. to help this generation quickly recover, well, more precisely, not quickly, well, as quickly as possible, because we understand that there are certain objective points, and these points must be taken into account, this is the first thing, the second thing, well this it is clear, er, the strengthening of such a serious pressure actually on the russian federation in order for it to stop these strikes. i won't even talk about the sanctions that have already been imposed on moscow, because we see that the world is quite

difficult to implement these things, but there are certain areas, at least a serious, more or less substantiated and backed up threat to introduce sanctions there, they really managed to would influence the russian federation and force it to stop these strikes, at least for some period. for example, this is the field of atomic energy, which is very important for... russia against which, as of today , no sanctions have been introduced at all, so in this context it is certainly possible to work in this direction and force russia in this way to reduce the barbaric, absolutely terrorist attacks that it carries out. well, and the third most important point, we gradually started to solve this issue, but little more is needed, this is the provision of such weapons to ukraine and the permission to use weapons on the territory of the russian federation itself, so that we can minimize the blows inflicted by russia. not destroying rockets in the sky over ukraine, because we see the situation in the dnipro, in other cities, in kharkov, which are constantly shelled, fragments fall and the fragments

also carry a great danger, and for this to happen on the territory of the russian federation itself, for this to happen, well, such as strikes on launchers, planes and many other points, these three components in combination can lead to a certain effect, because there are simply some calls to russia not to do this, well... they do not work , we see that they to bite, the russians respect only force in this regard, and these stories combined, they can influence russia in such a way that at least hits on critical infrastructure, it will come. kharkiv has no electricity generation left, the mayor of the city, ihor terikhov, said in an interview with the estonian newspaper yrr that a very difficult heating season is ahead, but kharkiv is counting on the help of the government of ukraine and on... partners to purchase many small power plants . let's listen to what terikhov said. we will also spend city funds

budget, and the future government subvention, i have such a hope. in addition, we have agreements with berlin to sign an agreement to provide us with 25 million euros for these purposes. the ebrd has already sent us a draft of such an agreement. i am counting on these funds to purchase such. equipment, however, i want to note that this is a very complicated process, because such equipment is produced for several months. well, mr. igor, the government plans to facilitate the importation into ukraine of exactly the energy equipment that tyrikhov was talking about, and to support small generation, denys shmyhal said about this today. the prime minister of ukraine said during the government meeting, let's listen to shmyhal. customs clearance. and bureaucratic barriers for importing generators, solar panels, accumulators, inverters and other equipment and parts for such equipment into ukraine, support for consumers who will

install their own generation, in particular through the provision of soft loans, installations for power supply of critical infrastructure, we are talking about dozens of mini tets throughout the country, mr. igor, it is clear that the current... situation, it arose due to the aggression of the russian federation, due to the attacks of the russian occupiers on our energy-generating companies, but at the same time, judging by what terikhov and shmygal say, that we do not have enough of these mini-stations, mini-power stations, i.e., the problem was in monopolization, i.e. there were monopolists who held and continue to hold this power plant. infrastructure, as a result of which, in fact, the derivation of several theses or theses leads to the fact that there is a lack of a sufficient amount of electricity

leads to outages. in your opinion, could such a situation have been avoided, and is this what we have a consequence of this very oligarchization of ukraine, when several large financial and industrial groups simply, well, made money from it and kept it all in their hands hands, not allowing the development of these small stations, listen, any person who works in the field of energy, including me in the highest positions, will tell you that the situation is precisely this, that there was monopolization, and due to this, simply at the root destroyed opportunities for these ministries, which, by the way, many, well, representatives of other areas of business there offered to build, but when we had a boom and this boom continued to some extent after the start of the war in general, which russia started against ukraine, that is, since the 14th year for the construction of, for example, cottage towns and so on, it was very often

proposed together with them... to build such objects, but they could not do it, because the legislation was written in such a way that all this belonged to several or even one a large company, this company, well, a monopoly issued and invoiced and actually conducted, well , the board brought up its own generation, that is, to what was being built, well, and then they made good money from it, so here on the one hand, well, shmyhal, he states that we have negative consequences due to the lack of political will to change this situation about... the topic here is different, why is this question being asked in the third year of a large-scale war, because in fact, since the 22nd year, there have been such warnings from specialized experts who said that the government first of all it is necessary to prepare for such a possibility as much as possible , let's say to police this field and give the opportunity to import, including small generation objects, which can be used later. at present, we have reached a critical situation, without having the appropriate

regulatory and legal framework. bases, this is a very important moment, having monopolized the market, it takes time to overcome it, because it is not done quickly, plus now we still have to look for western suppliers and partners who will be ready to do it and bring it, well, because they also, in principle, you need to make money on this, and we need to create appropriate conditions, and look, there is another very important point here, a purely social one, unfortunately, we did not hear much about it from the prime minister's mouth, and we had to start with this, i don't say now about... the increase even in electricity prices, in the end, you can find many different explanations here, why this happened, and not all of them are subjective, let's say , of a nature, there are really objective ones, the question is different, when we have such a problem, mayors of big cities talk about it, talk about it of the prime minister, now we need to think about how to solve it from a social point of view, because we have a huge number of people who are low-income, they are primarily pensioners, they need to think about how to help some...

things that will allow them to be without electricity, well , in the coming months, because they, for example, do not have the opportunity to buy even an elementary power bank, that is, you know that for them, such a purchase is, well, from the category of something sky-high, that is, it is big money, and it is necessary to start, including with of this, to remove customs duties on the importation of similar goods there so that a part of ukrainians, those who can afford it , yes, they also bought all this and just in case... were prepared for the problems that we will actually have in the energy sector, and the prime minister said today that we have to get used to the fact that we will live with these problems for the next few years, and therefore the social aspect is also important here, in addition to deoligarization, demonopolization, making certain decisions, well, solving this problem by simply creating a big one the number of suppliers who will provide all the services, the only thing i have, you know, is this small clarification, i would very much not like

... this de-politicization or de-oligarchization, it turned into such a very primitive, well, let's put it conditionally, nationalization , and then some new owners will come, and we will replace one oligarch with another, relatively speaking, because there were such ideas, and in principle, there may be an attempt to implement them, so we hope that this will it won't be, because it would be too much it didn't look good, especially during the war, so that it didn't turn out as planned. a telethon, when a single information flow is controlled by several people, but deoligarization has passed in our country, that is, and these people actually control these channels. look, another interesting statement was made by the secretary of the national security council oleksandr lytvynenko, he says that russia is determined for a long-term war with ukraine, and in the worst case, it can turn kharkiv into a second aleppo.