there are some frenchmen there who are specialists in soviet and post-soviet history, and, but now they feel like very pro-ukrainian people, and during their speeches they start with the fact that ukraine is fighting for independence and so on, defends itself, and then they they do not notice how they simply jump back to the topics of russian dissidents, which culture, what is there, also stalin's repressions were directed against russian people, representatives of culture, and they simply do not notice themselves how, thinking that they are talking about ukraine, they anyway they talk about russia, but this is also impossible, because their identity is already built on the foundation, understanding things in this way is very difficult. would this bone marrow somehow

be twisted now so as to teach it to look at things in a completely different way, oh, it needs some kind of, i don’t know, zen cleansing, which will give it the opportunity to look at things in a new way, from a new angle, that’s to only some of the most flexible and malleable people, or people of the younger generations, in whom... all these things are not yet so deeply embedded discourses, well, yes, because, well, if you work all your life in soviet studies, which then becomes russian studies, it struck me that when timothy snyder began his course on the history of ukraine, he asked his students: do you know how many courses on the history of ukraine in america, and he said: "zero". that is, the only courses, these were actually these. you said a very interesting thing about being unspoken. within

the country some moments that are related to identity, and i remembered your novel amadoc and in general this metaphor of amadoc as something so that what seemed to exist, but does not exist, yes, that is, something, it is a metaphor for something that has disappeared, yes, and this novel, in this novel a large, large part, the actual dedication, is dedicated to the holocaust that took place... in our territories on the territory of ukraine, and i thought about the fact that even in the 14th year, and even at the beginning of the full-scale invasion, there was still in the minds of western people, this myth about ukrainians as collaborators, about collaborators with the nazis, about some this story about azov is so archaic, so simple. such some rioters and rascals,

do you think that this soviet myth, which was planted in the western consciousness, could also take root so easily, due to the fact that we also did not have answers inside, that we pushed it out in some way, that it was all for us too with a certain amadoka such , undoubtedly, this is one of the main reasons, and this is the reason why the soviet union in general, like the decline... of the secrets of the russian empire, in which the same thing happened in principle, they so perfectly and skillfully developed this policy of depriving people of their history, their memory, because that is what makes it possible replace the real foundation and the real foundations with something else and thus control people, whether

there were reactions in... now you can say, yes, you have a whole palette, regarding, regarding how people reacted, were there reactions of misunderstanding or simplification, so, let's say, the role of ukrainian policemen or the role of ukrainians? ugh, you know, i haven't come across any openly aggressive reactions, i'm sure there are. but somehow i don't i had to, and instead, i heard and read a lot of just such impressions of readers related to the fact that it is very important, that it is very important to talk about it, to talk about it, to confess it, to call it truly, and this is a colossal relief for me , because when i was writing amadoku and when i was working on this part... i was afraid, of course, of being as

frank as uh, readers would be willing to accept, uh, this truth, and, uh,... i these reactions showed precisely that this readiness and need exists in society, and i also have it i associate with the processes of awakening and interest in one's own history as such, with a very conscious interest, i.e. not a desire to create such a simplified myth of ukrainians as unequivocal victims, innocent and in... all oppressed, who never hurt anyone, because they were victims , but such, such an honest desire to talk about different things, and interest in very specific private stories, and people shared with me

some painful stories of their families or people whom they, their relatives knew and remembered, really painful. and terrible stories of precisely betraying these jewish neighbors or using them in different ways, but also opposite stories about help and about her rescue, and in general this is such a symptom of growing up, willingness to talk about various topics, willingness to talk about volyn, which is also still with us still unsaid. in relations with the poles properly, and there is a lot of it, and this is very important, i think that ukrainians, on the one hand, we are now too traumatized by what is happening right now, and that is why we we react painfully in general to even some

innocent things, we often exaggerate, but on the other hand, this is also this experience, it gives us some kind of openness that allows... to understand what happened before and what we are also, not us specifically , but what were the mistakes of some ukrainians in the past, i think that maybe it will change, yes, maybe it will change after the war, as you say, but i also think that actually this 30-year non-conviction, and have you thought about what didn't give us... so actually these conversations inside to conduct society, what made it how early and how unprotected, let's say, then we don't talk about it, yes, then a certain sergey laznitsa from the movie babier context takes place, and he just manipulates,

manipulates, and chops, just splits the society inside, did you think in this sense, that for 30 years it did not allow... ukrainians to speak not only about this, yes, but also there the upa, and volyn, yes, and, let's say, the holocaust on the territory of ukraine, what exactly, here how to call it, how, well, i think, this is also what we, what we are about you have already been talked about, and this is some kind of main source, er, that is, deprivation, er, deprivation of ukrainians, er, deprivation by the soviet union, er,... ukrainians of their own history and their own memory, and a mixture of these various traumas that had to go through, on the one hand, personal traumas of this non-existent statehood, constant subordination

to various neighboring empires, constant threat, rejection of oneself because it is a danger. and on the other hand, in some individual cases, this is exactly what i tried to tell you, odoki, this feeling of guilt, it is in some cases connected with really terrible or some wrong or wrong actions or crimes, but in many cases the feeling of guilt arises simply in people who are innocent, and they uh... turn out to be witnesses who cannot influence the situation, or by the survivors, and they have a sense of guilt towards those who were killed and who were injured, and it's a super complicated mix, because some parts of these

effects are familiar to people from the west, i mean, for example, the feeling guilt when it comes to the holocaust or the effects of the second world war on family history, on private, on private experience, but people from the west are unfamiliar with this feeling of a colonized country. people who live in a colonized country, who have to just physically save themselves, adapt to this very cruel, insensitive, horrible system, and in one way or another just constantly give up on themselves and be reborn, become so spineless, inert, because it's safe , and... becoming very infantile, so the short answer to your question, i think it has to do with

by this kind of infantilism of society, which began to change only in 2014, to change so noticeably, and on the other hand, this myth about ukrainians, collaborators and nazis fit very well on the european consciousness of peoples who... really collaborated much more than we , let's say, the french or the belgians, yes, that is, they too, it is convenient, comfortable to believe that there are some bigger collaborators, of course, this always relieves this tension and somehow also allows such a survival mechanism, so to transfer greater responsibility to someone else, which there is someone who has collaborated more than, more than us, especially when that someone is very unknown, and it's just this white spot... and we can just impose whatever features we like, and that's why it's so important for us

to speak and outline ourselves, you see, we have again returned to our voices in the west, i recently read the text of liya dosliva, such an artist from the east, yes from donetsk, and a cultural anthropologist, and here she is, she often.. .she lives in the west, often attends conferences, and she speaks about the fact that very often ukrainian authors and scientists are grouped into such a conditional category by ukrainian voices, and other people, say, germans or french, they are simply presented as western scientists and so on, that is, it is not a group of voices, and here it is believes that this is a very colonial attitude towards ukrainians, that it is as if it was not there before... it was considered, do you have such

an impression, that they give us, out of solidarity , they give us the floor, like in the west, but they outline it like this by a certain group of natives, nevertheless, which ones should be listened to out of solidarity, ugh, ugh, have you ever had this impression, i personally have not had this happen, but i just watched some other... festivals there, i know that it is often connected with visual arts, more often, probably than with literature, because in the case of literature, well, somehow it is better not to group them into such cells, but it is mainly a writer and a conversation about this writer, or when i happened to have discussions with other people, then after all, they were some germans the french, or journalists from those countries, or, or also writers, that is,

i just haven't had it, but i know that this phenomenon exists, and it's really also, again, really this whole colonial history, some of these practices that are very difficult to let go of, because it seems to these people who are the organizers that they already super open, and they are attentive, and they listen and talk. please, but they don't even notice how they are actually creating the same colonies again, this way. did you have to, because it seems to me that you just have quite the same, well, except that you sometimes come across the point of view that russian culture is innocent, yes, you have a fairly positive experience of conversations, with western colleagues there or at any platforms, or you... have met this attitude that you are too emotional, too much hatred, too

much resentment in you , you don't speak objectively, or do you sometimes have to restrain yourself to sound rational? i probably didn't have to during the process, but somehow i'm already in a rather restrained and moderate mood, because i understand that... these people are from other countries, they perceive us from some their point of view, and they just don't have the experience that we have to... uh , to hear and be moved by our emotionality, and in order to convey some important things to them, i have to choose such words and such intonations, which maybe a little will cover certain shades, but instead, so to speak, to look for a language that will be more understandable to them, and this

is what i am trying to do, that is, it is not about some kind of ... distortion of reality, but simply about synonyms, let's say so, and about and and proton, about intonation, and it is possible in this way this is how to use this language to evoke active empathy, to the extent that a person begins to actively support ukraine, is it impossible with people who do not go through the experience that we do? i think i feel that i can, and you know, i'm looking for some beacons like that. i don't know if you read that text of mine about our trip to chernihiv region, because i mention it there, it's like something even a little funny, but it's a very effective thing, to talk not only about human stories, not only about history as such and about our experience, and to tell, say, stories.

with animals or with some other things which they respond more in a paradoxical way, and in the world in developed western countries the topic of ecology is very important now, it is actually important for all of us, but in ukraine there are some things that are about the here and now, and therefore ecology worries us, but... not so much, let's say, like people from germany or france, or now in ireland as well, and the freshest thing that i felt so slowly, an image that i also managed to combine with him, when it is a conversation about amadoka and about ukrainian history , about this colonial history, about memory, and amadoka

as an image i moved from it to kakhovskaya hess, to the destruction of the dam, and i began to discover some very interesting things for myself in this metaphor, and i am going to use it more now, because i like it very much, it seems very eloquent to me, er, because as we know, the kakhovskaya hpp was created by violence as much as on... it was destroyed, and this violence was very characteristic of the soviet union and the current russia and the russian empire before that, and this is the desire to come by force, twist, to destroy to destroy and plant something of their own, and they

did it both with specific people, with nations, and with by nature as such, yes, change the course of the river, create a reservoir where there was none, flood hundreds of villages, destroy plants, animals, and so on, and now russia is destroying these traces of soviet history, which it seems to be trying, on the contrary, to preserve and protect . the eyes of these great sufferings, after the destruction of the kakhovskaya dam, after a lot of people died, as living beings were destroyed,

people lost their homes, their villages. now there is a restoration of the nature that existed before, and i keep watching the comments of this biological scientist who says, and it's just a symbol of what's going on with people in general as well, just human nature is coming back, and this, this gentleman is talking about that the forests are already being restored, and these forests, if you don't touch them, if you let them be like that, they... will simply be the lungs not only of ukraine, but also of europe, they are already cleaning our air, and the birds that lived there before have already returned, and all that. biodiversity is rampant, and this is the same as what will happen to ukraine in some idealized sense, but the direction

is meant to be, yes, well, it’s easy to stop this evil and let nature be, great, you know, we promised the very end of the intrigue and you failed so well yourself, talking about the future and about the restoration, yes... of what was destroyed and slandered, which means that i have on the table the book that sofia will literally present on monday, tomorrow, june 10, at the napodoli theater. this book is called catanankhy, it is a kyiv novel, a very kyiv novel, this is just a small spoiler, i will not spoil anything else. please tell me what kind of book it is, why you wanted to write it. just such a novel, exactly when you wrote it, eh, i will try to answer briefly and simply, it seems to me that katananhi arose

compared to all my previous texts, the least planned, and this text, which, on the one hand, i could control him, maybe more than her previous ones too. lyrics, because readers will see that it's quite laconic and slender, and done in such a minimalist way, but on the other hand, i didn't plan it in advance, and it arose from some kind of this central collision, which seemed to me just interesting and witty, and i wanted to develop it to see how this event will affect other characters, how who will behave and... it can come out, but in the process, when i started writing it, i realized that the text is much more serious than i wanted to make it, and that it tells

about the consequences of what we experience, about the processes we go through, and about the changes that take place in us, about fear, about pain, about loss, about some... most important things, but at the same time about returning to such everyday life, to normal life, the events take place several years after the war, we feel it all the time, so we always have memories, some pictures, but, but it seems that she is already behind, and it is as if you are saying this, that this is a rather serious text, and it is indeed quite serious, but at the same time it is an extremely psychotherapeutic text, and it is somehow, how much it is kyivan, urban, and such that you want to return to it, that i believe that it is

, that this book will be such, such a flash of some kind of light in the darkness, somehow we all live in such windows of light, now, yes, and actually some texts, some books that we read, here for me... nankhi is such a novel, it is a novel to the letter, yes, that is, you call it a novel, it is a short novel, yes this is actually, actually this this such a flash, a flash of something bright, this is a window in which you can, to which you want to return, we deliberately talk very little about this novel now, because on june 10 in... there will be an event tickets you can now buy tickets for this event and actually all the funds from the sale of tickets will go to the needs of the armed forces

of ukraine, this is actually for the volunteer project of andrii lyubka, yes, who is collecting, since the beginning of the full-scale invasion, andrii has changed his life almost incompletely, and he all the time collects money for cars for the military and the owner. he finds these cars, modifies them there, does what is necessary and drives them to the front, to the front, this is very important, because these are very not the life of cars is very short in the war, so roman katanankhy, sofia andruhovych, june 10 we are waiting for you in the theater on podil, if you want to donate to the armed forces of ukraine, this is a great chance to do so and listen to our conversation with sofia. thank you sofia for the conversation, thank you for staying with us, we will see each other in a week, be with us espresso tv channel, thank you. attention, total

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the new one. in a two-hour format, even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion on malice of the day with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and turn on, the verdict with serhii rudenko, every weekday from 20 to 22 at espresso. it's 6 p.m. in ukraine, and to your attention is a news release on the espresso tv channel. in the studio of iryna koval. greetings to all viewers. and now i will tell you about the most important events.