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i really enjoyed the trip to austria, loved the museums we went to every day it was amazing and i really loved how we went out to restaurants. i visited the cities of salzburg, vienna, and linz. this trip had a positive effect on me, i became more cheerful. thank you so much for such an incredible trip, it will never be forgotten in my heart. let's give together memories that will warm hearts. and will help to survive these difficult and scary moments. we continue the politclub program on the espressa tv channel and talk about events related to central asia and sino-ukrainian relations relationships and with the diplomatic duel that

is currently taking place between ukraine and china. nataliya plexienko butyrska, expert on east asian issues, master's degree in foreign policy. congratulations ms. natalie. good evening, congratulations. well, then, let's start with this duel. i can honestly say that everything suddenly changed, the president of ukraine publicly accused china of intending to undermine the peace summit, no one in ukraine made such harsh statements against petin for many years in a row. hoped to persuade china to participate, why such harsh statements that happens? well, in fact, i think the president has really already used all the methods that were possible during these two years in trying to improve relations with beijing, and you know, sometimes it even seemed that the ukrainian authorities either had too much patience or too much hope in terms of china, because about the behavior of china, about what role it plays. in this war and,

unfortunately, the fact that he does not want to be the side that will help ukraine, it was clear, and sometimes, even to a certain extent, it is on the actions, the language of the ukrainian side, it was much softer than, for example, the actions of our western partners, in particular the americans, who put pressure on china with the help of russia, and then ukraine gave china too many elements of influence or too many elements of trust, and therefore... this is really tough rhetoric, it was actually the truth about china's actions, because actually china did a lot to blur this summit, and these are very obvious things, and that's why the president criticized, and this is actually china's unpleasant for china things like that china does not like any kind of public showdowns, however, it looked very contrasting with... this

speech of china and the actions of ukraine, because literally the next day our representative of the ministry of foreign affairs, the deputy minister of foreign affairs went to china and in... he tried to prove whether it was possible to convince china to participate, but i will understand that these were pre-planned consultations, it is not that he left after zelensky's speech, so to speak, obviously these conversations and the work of the ministry of foreign affairs in general, it was conducted in its own way, and accordingly it looked like like ukraine as if she left amicably, or to make sure once again whether this china could not be involved, but... china made its decision in advance, and it was repeatedly said, that is why there is absolutely no hope that the position will change today. but what do you think, such a chinese position, it is really dictated by the fact that china believed that russia should be invited there, because there is a certain

illogicality in this. the minister of foreign affairs of russia, sergey lavrov, whom the chinese people's republic would really like to see in lucerne, said that the russian delegation alone will not... go, he did not say this in chinese, he told the representatives of the ministry of foreign affairs of the swiss confederation, who met with him on the eve of this summit, when they had just started its preparation and heard from him that switzerland is not a friendly country, that russia is not going to go there even if it is invited, and what is the point, what is the logic, if russia still does not want, how can you demand to be invited, in fact, if you take china and its position neutral side, as they say... so close to both sides that for them it is such an element of their pride and an element of their plus-plus in this situation, then obviously he should send his representative, even if not the highest, but we have a person , who is engaged in, not in our country, there is a person in china who is engaged in a peacekeeping mission, this is lihui,

it is obvious that this whole story that is happening around, it was planned by china, and it is absolutely not based on whether... will go whether russia will not go, whether it was invited or not, because i personally drew attention to the fact that lihue, who visited european countries and kyiv and moscow in early march, already based on the results of this visit, he used his formalism that china advocates an international conference where two parties will be invited on equal terms and will be discussed equally different. proposals, before that likhui himself, when he went to the capital, he tried to convince russia to be invited, but obviously this preparation to refuse, if in the case of their decision there, it was already done, but from my point of view, the refusal here

looks not only in the fact that they want to invite russia, the fact is that china does not want to support the ukrainian peace formula, or at least... any basis that is laid by ukraine, it wants to be over the process of the procession, it is obvious that promoting their peaceful principles, so-called, or their various formulations, they, these formulations are close to russia, and these formulations, they are acceptable to china itself, because since the beginning of the war, no matter what he says china about the war, whatever proposals he gives, all of them they are not... about the end of the war, all of them are not about the interest of any other party, but about the personal interest of china, and now from my point of view china is against the background of this war, against the background of a certain division that is happening in the world, and

it is caused not only by russia and the attitude towards russia from the west, but also by various events that are developing around it, in particular the war in gas, and china sees for itself the possibility... to form influential players around the countries of the global south in order to develop their playground, friends, allies, as they would be called, because it is still being formed, but from my point of view, it is the formation from the side of china, a bipolar world in its confrontation with the united states of america, it is happening gradually, visibly or imperceptibly, but in a certain way and i use... this the factor, let's say, of russian aggression against ukraine, and various possible factors that currently exist in the world. and what do you think about china's so-called peace plan, this new one that was released after lihue's trip, and then, by the way, was discussed by the foreign minister

of the republic of china vni and the chief adviser to the president of brazil marim, and this is already such a chinese-brazilian consensus, what is it and why is it? well, the first point we will... let's see, they are about what should be done, the first two points, that the situation should not be escalated, military operations should not expand, the military should not expand the zones there. and there is no need to add fuel to the fire, and therefore from my point of view, if this point, in particular, was not discussed with putin, or at least it was not covered in the conversation and in the final communique between putin and sydzenpin after their meeting, it is obvious and not obvious that all of them are aimed not at russia, but at ukraine, because putin in general escalated the situation, during his visit, kharkiv started this new campaign. and it is obvious that if china wanted the situation not to be exacerbated by both

sides, and now it is obvious which side is escalating it, then it should have discussed it with putin and made it public, but we did not hear it, instead there is such a general , a common piece of paper with which lihui traveled to up to four countries, in particular to turkey, to saudi arabia, the arab emirates and egypt. and discussed them, that is , we are talking about so that ukraine and the west do not escalate the situation, well, obviously, yes, and this is not fueling the fire, fire, this is such a standard phrase, so that the west does not give weapons to ukraine, similar to the second point it is said that the parties should create favorable conditions for negotiations and dialogue, and there is also a glimpse of china's desire to bring ukraine and russia to the negotiating table. and it is obvious that in these negotiations two parties who find it difficult

to talk to each other will need a communicator like china. the rest of the points, they coincide to a greater extent with what ukraine offers and relate to the exchange, for example, of both deported and captured military personnel, nuclear security, and so on, that is, the rest of the points, they coincide with ukraine, and then the following occurs . if china proposes such and such a plan of its own, and this plan, it does not differ from the proposals of ukraine, because ukraine also chose only three points, which are the most uncontroversial among of the countries that are invited, in particular the global south, and it is very obvious that these points were selected for both china and its peaceful 10 points, that is why it is very surprising why china, for example, as a neutral party does not participate in... this summit, and here the question already arises, because china offers

its alternative, repeating it, and it is not interested in supporting the ukrainian proposals in any way, but could it be that katya is simply interested in showing its leadership, say in brix, ot he proposes a plan, and let brazil support it, the south african republic has already supported it, russia has joined, well, i don't really count on india, but everyone else can... just join the chinese plan, it will be the plan of the organization, at this summit of foreign ministers of the affairs of brics countries in moscow, can such an idea be absolutely shouted? it is absolutely possible, we will see, literally tomorrow or the day after tomorrow this summit begins, but really this is this plan, it was discussed with the brics countries, and how we then heard that the representatives of these countries brazil, par, saudi arabia will not send their representatives to switzerland, especially at a high level, and it is obvious that china is trying

to create its own platform with its so- called peace proposals , where russia will agree to these proposals, because russia has spoken several times through the mouths of lavov and putin about the acceptability of precisely chinese initiatives, and will not rule out some support for chinese proposals at this brics summit it... will be discussed and china will thus try to promote them, or at least it will have them on the table for the right moment. and why should the united states call on public china to take part in the peace summit, is it the hope that they will be listened to, or is it just a propaganda story? well, in fact, it has already passed, it is already a matter of diplomatic drag, because everyone understands the role of china. it seems to me that neither in... the states nor in the west there are any expectations about the fact that china will go to the side

of the west or support, for example, in the form in which we would like ukraine, but still this diplomatic delay of the presence of china, especially considering how russia does not want this presence, it, it exists, and it is an attempt to exert such pressure, perhaps even on the part of the united states and the desire to show us how we are for european partners. about what china is like, this rapprochement between china and russia, which is already almost final, because in fact the united states of america has to make excuses. you european partners before making certain decisions, and, for example, the big seven, it finally has to consider, let's say, the measures that concern chinese banks there, regarding assistance to russia in the purchase of dual-purpose goods, and it is obvious that this non-constructiveness and rapprochement with russia, it is needed, and in particular, the demonstration of even

such an approach as participation in the swiss summit, it will help to... the implementation of these partners, that is, you believe that china has already finally decided that it will be next to russia, and not neutral in the further development of events. i don't, i don't want to say that china won't, let's say it chooses a side, china will act exactly as it sees fit. that is, in this case in switzerland, he explained his presence with such diplomatic wording, and he explained this presence and this one was supported. and it is supported by various other countries, that is, china is not alone in this case, besides, china received our deputy minister, and they talked about the fact that they will maintain bilateral relations there, will to interact, well, in this way he tries to balance the minimal diplomatic interaction that we have, especially during

the war, that is, about the recognition of china, which has been completely determined, i cannot say, because... china views russian aggression against ukraine through its own the prism of confrontation by the united states of america, and this is what guides what behavior he chooses, what he does , and what are the limits of his behavior. i don't think he will make the final switch because there is a lot of interest in engaging with the united states states, and primarily with european countries, and china still has a lot of important points for interaction. therefore, we will see this cunning chinese policy, at the same time, i want to say that the western countries, as we can see, do not break relations with china to the end, even understanding that it seriously helps russia, because such a thing is possible and feeling that this interaction, it can be even greater, and when china

really helps russia, in particular with military methods, then this... will bring serious consequences in the development of the war, plus there are still small hopes for china as a deterrent to putin's nuclear threats, although we see how putin tries to network these threats, even in the moments when he meets with sidzenpinim, but behind the scenes even european leaders recognize the participation of china, india as deterrents of these threats , and therefore the diplomacy of balancing from all sides, it will be present. thank you, thank you ms. natalya, natalya plexienko butyrska, an expert on east asia, was on the air with us, and now from asia, east to the middle east with vyacheslav likhach, historian, a political scientist, a researcher, a member of the expert council of the center for civil liberties, he is in israel, welcome mr. vyacheslav, good evening, so let's start with this event that

happened yesterday, which was such a great holiday for the israelis, the release of four hostages, but in the world it is... perceived ambiguously, like many other events that happen in the region, they say yes, four people were released, but a large number of civilians of the palestinian authority died in this operation, hamas has already called it, that it is not a victory, but defeat, and how do you generally assess what happened, this is certainly one of the most successful operations since the beginning of the war eight months ago, it is certainly so sacred, because the freed ... of any of the hostages is the very purpose for which this began a war for which all these sacrifices were made, and the operation, perhaps, was not ideal, but it was extremely difficult, one of the most difficult operations not only in this war, but in many

years, and it was definitely, it can be considered a great luck. what do you think about the fate of biden's peace plan? with which israeli prime minister netanyahu already agreed, but it now threatens him with a governmental crisis. no one knows what israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu agreed to, and biden's peace plan has two significant, well , two significant obstacles on the way to its implementation, they are called israel. hamas, that is, the two parties that this plan supposedly aims to reconcile. so far, neither israel nor hamas has fully accepted this plan. allegedly signals that he is serious about of this plan and is ready to accept it, of course he acts under considerable pressure, and not

only from the united states, but also from other international partners, ah, but he never once clearly articulated that he agrees to a complete ceasefire and the end of the military operation in gaza, alone. this is the demand of hamas, they demand to achieve all the previous intermediate steps, it all starts with the establishment of a temporary cessation of the ceasefire, then the release of one batch of hostages, then there are other steps, but everything rests on the fact that hamas does not believe that israel is ready for a complete cessation of hostilities, it believes that israel will agree to... a temporary ceasefire to release the hostages and then continue the war, it seems that hamas is right about this, maybe that's it is on

benjamin netanyahu's mind, but he has not clearly said what exactly he is signing up for, what exactly he is supporting, and exactly how he interprets biden's peace plan, to which he generally allegedly agrees, and yes, in case he agree to... a cessation of hostilities, that threatens him with the collapse of the coalition and early elections. and as far as it is possible to realize in principle what are the final goals of the prime minister and the government in the operation, well , they talk about the destruction of hamas, but we see that hamas itself continues to occupy a rather serious position in the gas sector, even after such a long time of war, well, how much can we talk about absolutely unprecedented. the period today is 247 days, hamas actually has intact battalions, so during this raid to release the hostages, they talked about the fact that there was a hamas battalion in this

place, absolutely, which was undamaged by previous military actions, then how much time is needed for the real elimination of hawass, is such an elimination even possible? in this settlement, in this refugee camp, the israel defense forces, actually still serious... entered, and so there are combat units of hamas, as well as in many other parts of the gaza strip, according to preliminary estimates, maybe 50%, maybe a little fewer, uh, numbers of hamas retain the ability to continue hostilities, uh, and that means that in 8 months, well only a little... more than half of hamas's potential was destroyed, which means that this war can continue at this rate until at least the end of this

year, if not longer, but the real good question is the ultimate goal of this war , because when operation steel sword began, the purpose of the operation was announced: two things, the first is the release of the hostages, the second is the removal of hamas from power in the gas sector, the destruction of hamas's military potential and the elimination of its political, political potential. elimination hamas from power in kaza, we can say, took place, although no other power in the sector was installed. the release of the hostages, as we can see, in general, did not take place in full, and the most successful from this point

of view were precisely the negotiations and the way of exchange, ah, actually, as a result of military operations such as yesterday, only a few hostages were released, there were only a few such successful operations, which means, it means that even those a... that goal that was announced at the beginning of the war is still far from being achieved, as at least the same, but this is not the ultimate goal, because what exactly does the government of the state of israel see in this place, after the hostages are released, ahem, the power of hamas will be destroyed, and its fighting potential as well, what exactly should happen next? this day after, the first day after the war, what will it look like, the israeli government has not formulated its own vision in eight months. the israeli government

says that it does not want... the return of the palestinian national administration to this territory, which lost power there as a result of the rebellion and the coup of hamas 18 years ago, ah, israel insists that security control in this territory, it will continue to exercise indefinitely, this means a de facto return of military control, that is, occupation, and this... means that the final solution, yes , excuse the wording, that is , the israeli government does not have any vision of what may come after this war, and in fact, this means that the israeli government is trying not to force, to put it mildly, events, or, as biden recently expressed, netanyahu drags out this war, perhaps hoping

that. that the power in the white house will change by the end of this year, which would be very good for netanyahu personally, as he believes, for israel as a state. and tell me, mr. vyacheslav, at the beginning of this war, we gave as an example the fact that it was possible to create a government of national unity in israel, that some representatives of the opposition went to the government of mr. netanyahu, among them the main figure, of course, was general bini ganz, who became a minister in this government, now literally... a few minutes ago it became known that that han is going to resign from this war cabinet of the minister, which was formed after the war, that he did not even come to the meeting of the war cabinet, because he is going to retire, that is , this model of national unity does not work for people or what? it stopped working, it's a crisis that didn't erupt today or yesterday, and even this decision that hans will leave...

the government was a consequence of the non-fulfillment of certain conditions that were publicly announced a few weeks ago, so it was a natural process, and the most important thing is that she is such a moderate centrist the liberal opposition, which joined the government after october 7 to create a government of national unity, does not share exactly this strategic vision of binyamin netanyahu. on how to conduct the war and on the future of the gas sector, more precisely, she does not share this lack of strategic vision on the part of netanyahu. the immediate reason that hans has now left the government is that the hans pressured netanyahu to accept the peace offer articulated by the president of the united states, joe biden, and he was not

enough' he agrees to the cessation of hostilities, without hans and without those political forces that have already left the government of national unity, the coalition remains valid, that is, it did not shy away from a direct and clear answer, whether the automatic collapse of the coalition means premature vi'. but in fact, if netanyahu agrees to biden's proposal, it will mean the collapse of the coalition for him, because the far-right parties, tseonut dotit and otsmayudit, which are part of the government, will certainly leave the government after that, they do not agree to peaceful biden's proposals and speaks quite aggressively about them, that is, this pressure from

the united states. for netanyahu to accept these proposals would mean for him personally the destruction of the coalition he leads and the end of his term as prime minister, because he has very little chance of retaining his position in the government after early elections. tell me, mr. vyacheslav, to what extent it is possible for the situation in the north to worsen, because in recent days everyone has been talking about the fact that there may be exactly such a situation in the north as in south. israel, that hezbollah is preparing for similar actions that hamas was preparing for. well, taking into account the fact that israel has been preparing for a possible attack from the north for the last eight, the last eight months, then under such a scenario the escalation with hizballah will not happen, as it happened on july 7.