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this week and actually who will be the guest of the studio, we will find out already this sunday, clearly, the topics will be relevant, the guests will be special, their own names with myroslava barchuk, sunday 17:10 at espresso. we continue the saturday political club broadcast by vitaly portnikov, and we have a practical hour to talk with... with mr. vitaliy, let's probably start with these putin's statements, which alarmed someone, someone took them with humor, someone says that this is food, there are different opinions, putin stated that he actually has his own demands, that he rejects all the vision that ukraine has, which has ... has the civilized world, putin says

that ukraine should not become a member of nato, says that five regions of our country should, in fact. even legally, according to international law, to become part of russia, what was it, according to international law, he did not say, well, he said about what to recognize it is necessary to recognize, we understand that recognition means recognition, if recognition is recognition within the framework of international legal treaties or something established, well, less so, we well understand that putin has no special connection there with or not, does not rely on legal. facts, but less with what it was? i think that everything is happening completely logically, it seems to me that we have already repeatedly talked about the fact that he is trying to drive both russia and ukraine into such a legal trap, not the first day. this issue of paska is connected with the fact that he has been in office since 2013

began to do something he had never done before. this is the same, this is the development of political schizophrenia. in the 1990s, they simply separated parts of the territories from of the soviet republics and created quasi-regimes there: the transnistrian moldavian republic, abkhazia, south ossetia, by the way, gauzia, which later agreed with the republic of moldova, and, by and large, it is absolutely obvious that they then believed that it would be like this an obvious proof of their influence in the post-soviet space. in 2008, they moved. new such a rubicon, they recognized the independence of abkhazia and south ossetia, and at that time they said that this type of response to kosovo, the west recognized the independence of kosovo, and they, although it was after the decision of the un international court, after attempts at genocide, after ethnic cleansing, in abkhazia , south ossetia had

a somewhat different ethnic cleansing, people of georgian ethnic origin were expelled there, but they recognized their independence, and this was the next stage, which absolutely does not allow to explain, but how will... unreal relations between georgia and russia be built , if russia recognizes the independence of the territories that georgia considers an integral part of its sovereign territory, but one way or another , they at least did not claim them. in 2014, a new stage took place: the annexation of crimea, the joining of the territory of one state to another, and this, i would say, changes everything very seriously from the point of view of international law and... that for the first time since the second world war in europe, one state annexed the territory of another state , well, in 2022, by and large, it continued, because in ukraine there were two hybrid regimes of influence, so to speak: annexed territory and occupied territory,

which declared itself an independent state, but this independence is not recognized by russia itself, so to speak, all this is happening within the framework of the transnistrian scenario in... 2022 putin decided to replace the transnistrian scenario the abkhaz one, literally in a few months the abkhazian scenario was replaced by the crimean one, and now the question arises, is it possible to find a political solution to these problems, realistically? no, and that is exactly what putin is trying to achieve. he clearly says that if we in let's imagine the end of hostilities, then this end of hostilities must ee... happen so that ukraine withdraws its troops from the occupied russian territory, which is absolutely schizophrenia, but it is absolutely logical in his head and in his constitutional right, and note that i always pay attention: russian propaganda

always distinguishes between a conditional kharkiv and a conditional kherson. kharkiv is a ukrainian city. kherson is a city under the control of kyiv. ugh. odessa is a ukrainian city, though. they always say that odessa will be russian, but it will be zaporizhzhia is a city under the control of the ukrainian regime, there were explosions in russian-controlled zaporizhzhia, in the controlled, not in the ukrainian one, which means, in principle, they have a clear understanding of where the state border of the russian federation is now, it passes along the administrative lines. on the borders of the kherson, zaporizhzhya, donetsk, and luhansk regions with ukraine. thus, no real political settlement of the russian-ukrainian conflict is possible, because any

president of the russian federation, who will to follow putin's course, it will not be possible to withdraw his country from the war with ukraine, even if this decision is political. it would not be sought, there can only be, conditionally speaking, a ceasefire between russia and ukraine, roughly the same as between israel and the arab countries. there was a cease-fire in 1948 on the island of rhodes, and the first peace agreement, which in principle fixed, well, at least, i would say the external border, was signed only after almost 30 years between israel and egypt, which means that we must prepare for a multi-year agreement on a ceasefire that does not belong to anyone nothing will be guaranteed. and will pass along this line, where the troops will be located, and you just need to understand that, no matter when this agreement is

signed, in the 25th year, in the 35th, in the 40th, if the very essence of russian statehood does not change, it will only be an agreement on the cease-fire, which, in the event of our non-admission to nato, will condemn us to the next military conflict after a certain time, it will be necessary to prepare for this conflict from the first day after the accession. fire not to peace, but to war. unfortunately, this is unpleasant to say. can there be a legal solution? i i can say the legal decision should not be from our side, but from the russian side. we are a country whose territory is recognized under international law. russia must absolutely clearly emphasize that the accession to it of the republic of crimea, kherson, and zaporizhia. it is against the constitution of the russian federation that the annexation of the luhansk and donetsk regions took place in

an illegal manner. this should be the conclusion of the constitutional court of the russian federation. i mean after putin. that is, the president of the russian federation should apply to the constitutional court of the russian federation with the question of whether these territories were joined to of the russian federation in a legal way, if the constitutional court comes to the conclusion that it is not, then the president of the russian federation should apply to the federal assembly of the russian federation with a demand to bring the constitution of the russian federation back into compliance with the international obligations of the russian federation and the decision of the constitutional court of russia, possibly on this occasion, it will be necessary to hold an all-russian meeting. referendums, and don't you think that from the side of any russian helmsman, it will be

a political shot in the head, we don't know what russia will look like in the future, ugh, i mean, if we're talking about a russia that wants to return to the civilized world, that wants to have normal relations with the west, that wants that against it there were no sanctions who wants her assets back, well that's it, if that's all she wants, then it can be... if it's not, if you think it's a head shot, then in this way, you you understand very well, andrei, that there are no legal grounds to believe that the russian federation will end the war with there is no political agreement in ukraine. we can say, what if we agree? i think a lot of viewers right now are saying, well , if they don't agree, and they're a nuclear power, they can pulverize us. then maybe we should agree, god bless these kherson, zaporizhia, donetsk,

luhansk regions, let's withdraw troops from our unoccupied territories, take people who want to leave there and stop the war, i'll tell you what will happen the next day, the next day russian troops will enter the territory of kharkiv oblast, they will hold a referendum there, well, maybe not the next day, in a month, ugh, and they will demand from us, that is, this is a salami tactic, as soon as you... the kyiv regime is terrorizing the population of the zaporizhia region or khayla , a terrorist act, you heard what putin said: we and we were not going to capture kyiv, we just wanted to go there, that they stopped shelling donbas, logically, well, it could be in kharkiv oblast, kharkiv oblast, then poltava oblast, the question arises where it will end, the last time the president of ukraine will sign an agreement, in who is he admits that the transcarpathian region is an integral

part of the russian federation in bratislava, or in budapest, i don't know where the closest point is, that's how it will end, because it's just not in a year and not in two, but in 10, ugh, that is this is a direct road to the liquidation of ukrainian statehood and to the transformation of citizens living on the territory of ukraine into russian citizens. residents of russian regions, and this is simply the recognition of five subjects - this is the first step, the following will follow: do you remember how putin once told alexander'. when that discussed with him the unification into a union state, he says that belarus, to volodymyr volodymyrovych, wanted to join russia, in parts by regions, join russia, by regions, that's right, that's how we are, we thought it was a joke, but that's exactly what it is and it is happening, they are joining russia, they are joining russia territories by regions,

crimea, donetsk region, luhansk region, kherson region, zaporizhia region, they even. are ashamed, you know, their constitution does not provide for the annexation of the territory of other states at all, this is prohibited by the constitutional law of russia, and therefore they hold a referendum, which, by the way, contradicts the constitutional law of ukraine. let's say, do you remember the last annexation, they declared zaporizhzhia oblast an independent state, they didn't even begin to invent the people's republic, why was this independent state for... the region, as well as the independent state, kherson oblast, were annexed to the russian federation as state, well, yes, you know, you can declare any district within ukraine a state and join it, which, what matters, region, this district, city, whatever you want, it's simple, by the way, the city, the state of the city of sevastopol, it

will join the russian federation as a state, and it's not a joke, it's legal. document: the constitutional court of the russian federation, the federal assembly and the president of russia approved the accession of the state of sevastopol to russia. there was such a state for several days. and in this state, as you remember, there was not even a leader. the document with putin on the accession of the state of sevastopol to the russian federation was signed by the people's mayor of sevastopol with the surname chaly, whose surname was simply shouted at the rally, no one even elected him. imagine a person who just walked into the city hall from the street, took, took some documents and went to sign an agreement with the president of some other country on the city's annexation, you can imagine the level of arrogance in general, but they do it, so what he says , i think it's even more important than anything else, because you know,

to discuss some changes in the constitution and the laws, at er, at any peace conference, here you are, we want you to change these laws, and we we want you to change these laws, you should change such texts in such articles, because we are concerned about the rights of national minorities in your territory, well, how is hungary? makes us worry about the rights of the transcarpathian hungarians, we want you to change this and that, but imagine what hungary is saying, you know, but we need the european integration of ukraine, let's join the bereiv district to hungary, well, that's our demand , admit that this is the territory of hungary, the same will not occur to anyone, even to a single hungarian prime minister,

and if it happens, it will be the last day of stay. this, the prime minister in the european union, in nato, everything will be over in a few days, here, we are not just talking about neutral status, about the demilitarization of the country, about such things, which are also absolute arrogance, and together with this may look like topics for negotiation, because we can demand the same from russia. the militarization of, say, the russian-ukrainian border, etc., the neutral status of belarus, that is, no one said that these conditions of ours will be fulfilled, but this is what diplomats discuss at conferences, but when it comes to the territory of another state, all negotiations end immediately, by the way, notice how the text of such an agreement,

which was discussed in istanbul in 2022, looked like there in... the occupied territories were removed from under the effects of this agreement, there are special articles where it is written that in crimea , the effects of such, such, such, such, such, such articles do not extend to any other territories, that is , even there it was clear to putin that no one would recognize the russian status of the territories ukraine, here he decided to go even further, this indicates that he is not going to conduct any battles. that is, russia, now we are talking in the context of summits, in the context of meetings, in the context of possible communiqués, that means. that russia will not participate in any peace conferences, well, it can, and if it does, then according to this

program, they say, as they say, the result will be the same, well, of course, they will not, they, they can come with putin's program , if they consider that they do not have military service forces to seize these territories and others, they can you... become a compromise of the ceasefire that i told you about, the ceasefire on the line of contact of the parties, here we are, say, in zaporizhzhia, they are in melitopol, we are in kherson, they are in novaya kakhovka, the ceasefire, everything, while they will continue to consider zaporizhzhia and kherson, russian cities occupied by ukraine, and we will consider, of course, all these regions, which will be... the main idea of ​​the palestinian

movement, and this brings him closer to russia, there is no denial of israel's right to exist, you can sit down, as it has happened a million times, draw some maps, do something there, there will be so much here, there will be so much here, there will be so much here. such control, there will be all kinds of control, then a simple thing is proposed, let's you recognize israel's right to exist, well , no one from the so-called peaceful palestinian population will vote for such a political force, it will lose the elections, and therefore how to solve it, no way, simply to achieve a cease-fire, which is currently happening in the near future, or not it doesn't seem to you that with such statements, putin is actually trying to achieve... a ceasefire, that is, he is raising the stakes here, look, we are claiming that part of kherson oblast, zaporizhzhia, donetsk oblast that

is not occupied, but, listen, let's go to some kind of peace conference, yes, and let's say, let's agree on i think it's not quite so, andrei, he's creating a platform for such an opportunity, if he has a need, he doesn't think at all that he should hold. some negotiations with ukraine, he believes that he can dictate a certain decision if he has this need. for him, ukraine is not a subject of negotiations, but simply some territory there, conditionally speaking, which is under the control of the west, and he can offer the west such an option if he needs it at the moment, if he decides that there will be a further war, it cannot happen, let's say, the war must freeze, and i am zelenskyi's president. says, we cannot afford to freeze the conflict, putin cannot now either, but this is not a case when he will decide that it is possible, that the conflict can be frozen, and

that in this situation, freezing the conflict on the contact line, wherever it may be at that time, will be a better case for ukraine than the continuation of military operations, that's all, how should the west react to this, or how will the event be? to react to this, to these statements, and how should ukraine react? and the west, we see how it reacts to any statements, the west raises the stakes, the west tightens sanctions against russia, the west allows ukraine to strike with american and other western weapons on the territory of the russian federation, the west supplies in 16, the west is thinking of increasing the supply of air defense systems, and what can... allow another west, it cannot recognize the fact that the regions of ukraine are occupied by the russian federation, are the territory of russia, how can it do this? even if someone had a great desire, it is impossible, because

it undermines international law, you can see that even those countries that are in better relations with the russian federation, let's say, the country of the global rooster, they don't talk, let's talk about , let's ukraine recognizes its own. the occupied regions are part of russia, even china doesn't say that, it doesn't say that, it says that we want the cessation of hostilities and further negotiations, but this idea is not even there, china will never say that, because for china the very idea that it recognizes annexation of foreign territory is dangerous from the point of view of its own territorial disputes with other countries, that is, no country, only some country that is completely dependent on moscow, can afford the luxury. to recognize the occupied ukrainian regions russian, but again, what country should it be? here is oleksandr lukashenko, he was in crimea, he always says: invite me to crimea, i will go to crimea, i will fly to crimea through

russian airspace, but it won’t fly, uh, it’s been 10 years since it wo n’t fly, lukashenko, who can just be driven around the table with his face, but not even him, he was even forced to meet with the president of abkhazia, he actually met privately with the president of abkhazia , self-proclaimed, aslan bjaniya, he came to see him in minsk, but abkhazia - this is a type of self-proclaimed sovereign state, and a meeting with its leader may appear to be within the framework of some kind of peaceful efforts, a search for dialogue, whatever, moreover, he did not recognize its independence, he simply held a private meeting, but not officially, not with the leader state, there were no flags there, you understand, and he still did not recognize abkhazia , south ossetia, did not open belarusian

embassies there, it would seem. lukashenko, then the question arises, who can be forced to admit this? north korea? well, north korea not something to force, but north korea can north korea, i think, recognized the independence of the dpr, lpr. but she did not recognize their fact of joining the russian federation, they did not make any statements on this matter. well, as they say, everything, everything, everything is possible in the future, but you see, even they don't do it. republic of south ossetia. he can afford such a thing, they recognized both that and the other somewhere, but this is not a state either. at the level of states that have seats in the organization of the united nations, it is very difficult to do everything, and putin knows this very well, and that is why it is very important for him that ukraine itself, if ukraine recognizes its regions as russian, it opens the possibility for wide recognition of other borders of the russian

federation, as you say, between this is also a question, because many countries may believe that ukraine did it under duress, and still will not recognize it. if we are talking about sanctions, an interesting thing, i asked mr. volodymyr orysk about this, and here we come back to the sanctions pressure, and this week this sanctions pressure, it increased significantly because the united states of america imposed sanctions against a number of legal entities and individuals of russia. and by the way, against the moscow stock exchange, we saw what was happening there, and against a number of legal entities, china, turkey and a number of other countries there, which as third parties supplied russia with certain parts, certain products, which are now prohibited to delivery on the territory of the occupying state. the new

sanctions, how do you assess them and what could be the next such sanctions powerful blow against russia, what could cause, well, if not devastating damage, at least significant. i think that there may be many more such steps, they are clearly in the american arsenal. and in general, the introduction of sanctions against mosbirge shows that the americans are not just getting impatient little by little, but that they are taking a whole series of different decisions to show that they will act more. that is, if you are not able to listen to us, we will act without any consideration of the consequences of our actions. this is not only, i say again, this is not only a sanction, this is also permission to beat in russian territory, and by the way, what was said in berlin about the need to supply more air defense systems and so on and so forth. i think that all of this is in the logic of escalation, you see, these two and a half years are almost here, yes, it will be 2.5 years already in august, they have passed. as part of the fact that

russia was raising rates every day, and the west was saying all the time: let's be careful not to allow a serious escalation, now there is no such thing. this, by the way, began two years later, two years of the great war ended, and french president emmanuel macron, the first, in fact, among western leaders, said that he wants russia to live in a situation of strategic uncertainty, because until this moment the west itself lived in a situation of strategic uncertainty, and now it can be said that they have all changed . roles, now in a situation of strategic uncertainty lives, by and large, russia too, because the russians do not know what will be used against them next, whether some western missiles and bombs will fall on their heads, chips will appear in ukraine foreign troops, probably not, but then again, what 's a no when they could say before, probably not about western weapons, right, if you…