greetings, friends, live on the espresso tv channel, the second part of the verdict program, my name is serhiy rudenko, and today we will talk about the following: in nato only after the end of the war. stoltenberg excludes membership in the cream alliance. with the frozen conflict, are ukraine's partners at risk of a direct conflict with russia? a potential moscow agent in the ukrainian government. 30 people's deputies from the former opz remain in leadership positions in the verkhovna rada. does ukraine need a new lustration? electronic mobilization. via mobile

1.5 million ukrainians have already had their data captured by the reserve plus application, will the new mobilization legislation help to improve relations between the tcc and society? we will talk about this and other things in the next 45 minutes with our guests, today they will be people's deputies of ukraine. however, before starting our big conversation, i suggest to our tv viewers and viewers to take part in our survey. today we ask you about this, whether it is justified. tax evasion during the war, yes, no, everything is quite on youtube simply, either yes or no, if you have an opinion that goes beyond these two unequivocal answers, please write in the comments below this video, and also, if you are watching us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote if you think wartime tax increases are justified (0800-211-381, no), 08021 380. all calls to these numbers are

free, vote, we'll tally up that vote at the end of the program. i would like to introduce the guests of today's studio, this is viktoria syumar, a people's deputy of ukraine, member of the verkhovna rada committee on anti-corruption policy. ms. victoria, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. oleksiy kucherenko, people's deputy of ukraine, first deputy chairman of the parliamentary committee on energy and housing and communal services, mr. oleksiyu. fine. evening and thank you for being with us today, congratulations, good evening, and we are waiting for the inclusion of halyna yanchenko, people's deputy of ukraine from the servant of the people, deputy head of the parliamentary committee on anti-corruption issues, it will happen obviously a little later, so ms. victoria and mr. oleksiy, how many times do we ask our tv viewers whether tax increases during the war are justified, let's do it in the blitz format, i'll ask you what you think about it, ms. victoria. you know, if we were alone,

probably with the enemy, then we would probably have to talk about mobilization, but when we see such serious support from partners and when we see enough little reporting, where the funds are going, how effectively the recovery process is actually taking place during the war, and there is one more the moment is interesting enough, you know that under martial law... capital withdrawal is actually prohibited, and all this is recorded by the government as additional investment, and this is essentially, yes, additional funds during the war, so in this case, probably, raising taxes and excises, when people are extremely seriously dependent on them, is such a dubious and debatable decision, but now i'm sitting without light with a battery-powered lamp literally here, lti pulls out the truth, thank god for the ether. but

besides that, you will have to turn on the generator there, and in the event of an increase in excise taxes on fuel, we understand that, well, it will be quite, you know, expensive, but if millions of ukrainians will be hostages of dark homes and cold winter, and also with such prices for electricity and fuel, can everyone pull it off , won't it lead to a further exodus of people, wo n't it lead to business closures? there are a lot of questions and it seems to me that... the answers are not so unambiguous. thank you, ms. victoria. mr. oleksiy, do you think it is justified to raise taxes during the war? blitz, yes, we, we agreed blitz, well, a little, a little more than the blitz, mrs. viktoria got it and let's do it, blitz yes blitz, stadium yes stadium. look, you can consider any model, because really, war, war has its price, including a financial one, and it's life, and it's health, it's...

nerves, it's finances, taxes, probably, really, it such is the price of war, but not in such a situation , not under such a government, and not under such a government. the structure of control over public money that exists today, or rather, there is no control, in principle, here i agree with my colleague syumar, i myself much, well, i don’t want her there, i i have my additional information, i am simply confused by the audacity with which the authorities simply neglect elementary things, not allowing even elementary control over budget expenditures, starting with hiring from... fortification, from drones and so on, you understand, they do not allow to audit of energy companies, each energy company has completely closed its information, huge funds for salaries are being spent left and right, and all this is closed, and we see all this in the payments, you understand, and therefore under

such conditions, it is definitely dishonest, not parity conversation by society, of course these taxes are annoying, they... they are destabilizing factors, especially in conditions when business constantly withstands pressure from law enforcement officers, a whole army of law enforcement officers from various structures, who today are deprived of their traditional income, you understand, for themselves , for his wives, mistresses there, yes, we will, i don't know there, we will talk about the deputy prosecutor general there and tomorrow he will be in the council, you understand, there you know this scandalous story there to the horse of this conchazask. and all this definitely causes opposition is probably correct and opposition to the rejection of this so- called tax policy on the part of the authorities, here i support mrs. shumai. thank you, mr. oleksiy, we are joined by halyna yanchenko, people's deputy of ukraine, deputy of the parliamentary committee on anti-corruption policy. mrs.

galina, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. i wish you health. well, since we 're asking our viewers whether they... think tax increases during wartime are justified, i'm going to ask you about that as well, since both viktoria syumar and oleksiy kucherenka has already answered, let's do it in a blitz format, that is, not without stretching the topic, just so that our viewers also understand what you think about it, to form your opinion for the answer? i have always been critical of tax increases, but now, given the colossal expenditures from the state budget on our security and defense, on the one hand. and on the other hand, given that, unfortunately, we cannot use either western aid or western loans to pay, for example, the salaries of our defenders, or buying ammunition is probably a forced step. thank you, ms. galina, and ladies

and gentlemen, let's start our big conversation, because of course, money, control over money, control over spending, control, effective control over... the effective use of money, there was information that the council of the european union has created a commission to combat corruption and embezzlement of western aid to ukraine, according to the resolution, it will function until june 30, 2028 and will be based in brussels, while an auxiliary body will be located in kyiv. mrs victoria, does this mean that european countries, well, have reason to doubt that western aid in ukraine... is being used as intended, and that there are any arguments for talking about corruption or embezzlement of this western aid? i think you have seen sociological polls and their results and that

corruption exists in ukraine, more than 70% of ukrainians believe there, this is an extremely high number, and people, unfortunately, believe that it increased during the war, well, i can to say exactly that increased opacity, and even working in to the anti-corruption committee, well, it is very difficult, i will tell you frankly, to get a report, well, from the same ministry of energy, for example, on the protection of energy facilities, because there were declarations that billions of uah 100 each were spent there, how effective was the use of funds , so far no one has reported, the committee invited both mr. kubrakov and mr. nayem, but it so happened that the resignations happened earlier, and who is responsible now? for this sphere is not known at all, we also wanted to understand what is happening with the fortification system, because it was very there are many investigations of public organizations, well, let's say, you know those, with the demonstration of documents, when funds were transferred to some newly created

companies, the work was not completed, and these were directly presented facts, i directed my deputy's request to the chairman of nabu, mr. kryvonos, regarding . whether it was violated at all based on these facts, when society was given these facts and obviously society is guided by them, when it believes that there is corruption in the country, and more than 70% of people, i asked him, did you violate at all? criminal proceeding regarding the provided facts published in various mass media, the answer was no, a check is being carried out, it was a month after the publication, regarding such a high-profile topic on which people's lives directly depend, so it is obvious that there are problems, they are very significant, their our european partners see, they don't talk about it directly out loud, because they really support ukraine today and don't want russia to take advantage of this for, well, you know, strengthening stoicism in the world, and that's why all these conversations

are going, well, let's say, more in such a private way, but the creation of such institutes as, in particular, these three auditors, who will monitor the spending of funds, they speak for themselves that obviously there should be transparency here, and since we are talking about 50 billion euros , this is a huge amount of money, i think that the work of such an institute as this supervisory board will only increase over time, now ukraine is only receiving the first money from this big package, but i think that here all ukrainian ministries, officials need to start working transparently, because otherwise, god forbid, we will lose the trust of our partners, and it can turn into a disaster for the country. thank you, ms. victoria, mr. oleksiy, in 2016, when a package of laws was adopted in ukraine. regarding the creation of an anti-corruption infrastructure, they talked about the fact that these laws are the best, almost in

the world, well, in europe, for sure, why do you think that, in spite of everything, in spite of everything, in ukraine, ukraine has questions about corruption, the existence of corruption, why we have to prove to our european partners, western partners, that we use these funds effectively, why all this infrastructure is not working? to be a gentleman in front of mrs. halyna, for the future i will allow myself to give advice, when we speak in the council, and there is such a timer, there is a bell, yes, and everyone is on equal terms, well, for the future, i simply want everything for everyone, everything for everyone managed to say it once or twice, answering your question, and when suddenly ukraine became a country in which, in which the laws are enforced, well, excuse me, i live here and my whole life has passed here and the last 33 years there, so what? i do not remember such a period, i will honestly tell you when ukraine, the best

laws in the world were implemented in ukraine, starting with our best constitution in the world. and now the last thing, a week ago i was at a closed meeting of the accounting chamber to check the expenditures of the armed forces of ukraine on weapons, i was shocked, thank god, there were two deputies from yes and there was mrs. radina from and servants of the people, ask them. shocked simply by how simply it is a waste of money, about a waste of time, in the near future this report will get to the verkhovna rada, it will be secret, secret, but you can get acquainted with it, i know for sure, that last week there should have been a report on the hiring of the recovery program, that i already know the numbers there, i guarantee you that you will be shocked, and colleagues and society, you will be shocked, how much money was spent without control in general, if we are allowed to create tsk . in reality, it is not the ministry of energy that is hiding there, and kubrakov spent this money, and ukrenergo, but,

but it doesn’t change things, you will also be shocked at how ineffectively tens of billions of hryvnias were spent, so it is definitely the right of creditors and donors to control their money, i don’t even dispute i don't even dispute it, i'm doing the right thing, please tell me, but what we're talking about is that this whole story with mustafa naim and his two deputies, that... there were grounds for the prime minister to have claims against them , right? i, look, i was a government employee, when you want to fire, do an audit, audit, listen to the report, and you have all the reasons to professionally, calmly fire and give a political assessment, i fired so much , i dismissed the hire, that all the responsibility is mine for it , who took him to work, i didn't take him there, sorry for cleaning. like that they say, shmygal and the entire government team and the powerful are responsible for nayem and kubrakov,

there is no one to turn the arrows on. thank you, ms. halyna, how do you perceive the words of mr. oleksiy? monopower means monoresponsibility, and in principle, if there is a question about the effective use, including of western funds, then obviously this is a question for your team. colleagues, i believe that in fact in any state you should work. verification tools, do anti-corruption bodies work effectively enough in ukraine? well, to be honest, i think so far from all, i personally have, for example, very big complaints. to bebu is the bureau of economic security and the army, it is an agency for search and asset management. today, despite the fact that both bodies technically belong to this supposedly anti-corruption infrastructure, in my opinion they themselves suffer from corruption, so it is absolutely normal when allies

allocate large resources, huge resources, and regarding the allocation of these resources in their countries there is a... debate, especially in the states, especially on the eve of the presidential elections in the states, when the congress, or rather certain, let’s say, forces in the congress prefer to spend more american resources specifically on solving domestic american problems, but nevertheless they allocate tens of billions of dollars for military and financial aid to ukraine, they want control this process, including in order to report. to their constituents, why they sent the funds of american taxpayers to help ukraine. er, after all, i'm more than sure that the presence is active the presence of our western allies here can only benefit us. why? because we spend a lot of effort, a lot of resources to communicate the real

current situation in ukraine, what the racists are doing, what war crimes they are committing. what other international laws are they violating, but when in fact all these western, western summits, such as the peace summit, such as the big conference, the ukrainian conference on reconstruction, which was in berlin last week, all these efforts, among other things, are aimed at to coordinate the efforts of our allies and to inform, but when they themselves are proactively interested in actually moving to ukraine and controlling the aid provided, then this can be politically, i think, only in our hands, because they will be in course of what is happening. moreover, i want to tell you that in fact, from my experience of communicating with many congressmen and representatives of the american government, the more deeply a person is informed about the internal

situation in ukraine, the greater the union. she becomes a missing person of ukraine, for example, i want to to recall from such relatively recent, well , six months, but for american politics, these are relatively recent events, when six months ago a new speaker of the congress was elected from the republicans, he was considered so anti-ukrainian enough, he did not support earlier, being just a congressman, various issues and initiatives related to ukraine, but as soon as he became the speaker, as soon as ... including various types of american security services began to inform him about the current situation in ukraine, he significantly, let's say, revised his views, so i personally do not that i am not worried, i may even be happy about the increased attention and presence of our western allies here. thank you, mrs. halyna,

god forbid, of course, that our western allies and allies and western partners, so that they do not... pay attention to the statements and demarches, well, including mustafa nayem, because before the conference on the restoration of ukraine, well, this it looked, let 's say, very, very strange, obviously the parliamentary special commission, about which, the temporary special commission, about which mr. oleksiy, because it is not at all clear to me who is right and who is wrong in this situation, and exactly who our western partners will target. on the prime minister or on mustafa nayem, well, to be honest, i don't understand, let's talk more, please, i think that actually, colleagues, this is a funny comment, will the western allies focus on mustafa nayem or on the prime minister - minister, because in the end there is a certain

subordination and orientation to political positions, this is the first thing, secondly, mr. oleksiy here spoke about... well, the fact that mustafa was fired, well, literally today, i reviewed his recent status, where he noted that he resigned of his own free will, it was actually more his initiative, and to be honest, i can understand him, that is, he was comfortable working with the previous minister of infrastructure oleksandr kubrakov, who invited him to this position, with whom they obviously had a good partnership and working relationship, and since... now already it is more than obvious that for the position minister of infrastructure kubrakov will not be appointed, another candidate is being considered, and possibly, if not this one. next week or next, this personnel appointment will be made, so maybe, even this was an absolutely and logical decision on the part of mustafa

nayem. thank you, thank you, ms. halyna, so that i can now, mr. oleksiy, mr. oleksiy, i will give you my word now so that you do not find my comment funny, i will tell you that i have already come across publications about mustafa nayem's demarche in the western press , he did not resign voluntarily, he... committed a political démarche, and this political démarche was on the eve of the berlin meeting, we will insist that the results of the audit of the audit chamber be made public, and accordingly, i guarantee you that this will be a very serious matter both for the investigative bodies and for the political evaluation of personnel policy the current team, no childhood is over, what childhood, war? thank you, mr. oleksiy, let's put an end to this topic, wait for the results of the investigation, and then we'll talk about the results of this investigation of the activities of the agency for the reconstruction of ukraine. another topic, ladies and

gentlemen, is the actual stay in ukrainian politics of the great fifth column in the form of the opzh throughout the country, deputies were elected to local self-government bodies, more than 400 in 2020, a whole faction. has already repainted, sits in the verkhovna rada of ukraine, and here medvedchuk makes a statement, an appeal to putin, the leader of this entire force, which actually remains in ukrainian politics at various levels, regarding the fact that putin, if not zelensky, will not agree to the so-called peaceful the plan that putin should occupy odesa and generally show the neo-nazi regime, as medvedchuk says, the deraks are hibernating, why mrs. victoria... in your opinion, opz is still present in ukrainian politics, in particular in the verkhovna rada of ukraine, as my colleagues from the committee of voters of ukraine say , 30 people there in various

positions in parliamentary committees, deputy chairmen, secretaries of parliamentary committees, why does it happen that their leader calls for the destruction of ukraine, and they sit in the ukrainian government? i can be very brief here, as i am called upon. mr. oleksii kocherenko, you know, they are very convenient, they are hostages, they are actually hostages of the authorities today, and the authorities use them in order to, well, so to speak, plug the holes when they lack some votes for the most scandalous bills, and this is just an objective reality, because if there was a political will to get rid of this fifth column, it would be done away with, but instead, i regularly meet these people not only in ... dors, but also in the higher ones, yes , that is, the reception rooms that simply come out of the offices of the leaders country, and this simply shows that these

people are unfailing, it was very funny to me to watch how they cheered for the english language in ukrainian cinemas and for the ukrainian budget to pay money to these cinemas so that english is broadcast there, well, just that's it. in general, with all that these people have done there for more than 30 years in the ukrainian state, it is obvious that today they are simply extremely comfortable and the political will to get rid of this fifth column, unfortunately, is not there, because if they wanted to in the kyiv regional council, then there their got rid of, after the party was banned , they simply accepted the regulatory norm that they do not participate in the meetings, similar regulatory things could be in the verkhovna rada, but eh, well, there is no such desire, it is convenient for the partner. thank you, the head of the committee of voters of ukraine, oleksiy koshel, believes that the people's deputies of ukraine from opzh in leading positions in parliamentary committees and groups on inter-parliamentary relations with other countries

threaten national security, i quote oleksiy koshel. for deputies from the ex-opz in greenhouse conditions have been created for the parliament, but the preservation of leadership positions by deputies of banned pro-russian parties is not only a matter of political responsibility, primarily a matter of national security, but also very... complex relations of ukraine with hungary and china may also depend on the work or complete lack of work of groups with interparliamentary relations, which are headed by people from medvedchuk's closest circle. mrs. galina, why does your faction not insist that these 30 members of the opz, who remain in leadership positions in the parliament, at least to deprive of positions in the verkhovna rada of ukraine, i am not saying, to nullify their powers. serhiy, thank you very much for your question, because i am obviously the person to whom this question should be asked, because, in addition, i am the author of draft law number

9081, which not only proposes to remove opzzhe from ukrainian politics, but to ban it any participation in politics for the next 10 years, this is the so-called bill on anti-kremlin lustration, it was registered by me a year and a half ago, we fought, fought and passed the committee headed by olena shulyak, who after the start of the already full-scale invasion declared that she constructively cooperates with the opzh, and actually... it is obvious that there are the greatest difficulties with the implementation of this draft law, when the head of the specialized committee constructively cooperates with this fifth colony and prevents the adoption of this bill, but in general i want to tell you, colleagues, that the presence of pro-russian forces in the ukrainian parliament, whether they were called the party of regions, whether they were later called opzzh, or

now they are called something different by deputy groups, this is a decade-long crime, decades, because the war did not start two years ago, not 2.5, it started in the 14th year, and it was obvious to everyone what caused the tragic deaths in the first place, as it were er, heavenly hundred right in the center of kyiv, then what caused it and who caused it, who prepared the groundwork? for the actual occupation of parts of donetsk and luhansk regions and the annexation of crimea. therefore, from my point of view, this draft law, the author, main author and ideological inspiration of which i am, recall number 90/81, it seems to me that it was not just long overdue, but it was necessary to adopt it in a good way 10 years ago, but unfortunately, i was not a people's deputy then, now that i am

a people's deputy and i can. by virtue of my modest opportunities to influence ukrainian politics, i do it. thank you, mrs. galina, mr. oleksiyu, please. with your permission, we should not talk about our wonderful bills there, because there is such a parliamentary tactic, to register there, one person registers a bill, then for the rest of his life he tells how this bill is not voted, votes for you, i vote for the majority in the first place, because without it no law can be voted, therefore... i analyzed the situation carefully and with specialists, there is no need for a draft law, just change the regulations in order to deprive them of their rights be in the hall and the whole issue is resolved. sergey, don't pay attention to these committees of theirs, it's an extra 100-200 to the payroll, but they can't do anything in the committees there by themselves, they have 35 votes in the hall, i monitor every vote, because my assistants also monitor, every ... distant

such a vote, where the servants of the people do not have enough votes, because they have been divided for a long time, 35 votes from the opzh are added to all the scandalous votes, and they receive their 250, 255 votes in the hall as a result, and this is their key point, you understand , they are polishing this diamond, this group of 35 votes of opzh deputies, they are called prisoners of war, because they don't even have any slack, they have to sit and press buttons for all her draft laws, which are demanded by the president's office in the first place, so this is a completely transparent issue, not even here there cannot be any other version there, they are needed, you understand, because if they were not there, then it would be necessary to argue with the eu.