because the ground under his feet will be on fire from putin's stupidity, there is no need to provoke madmen, you will find yourself in their situation later. glory to ukraine, dear tv viewers, the program is on the air of the tv channel. studio zahid, we will analyze the most important events of this week, in particular, we will talk about the results of the swiss summit and we will analyze putin's visit to his henchman kim jong-un in north korea. our guests today, former minister of defense of poland, chairman of the senate committee on european integration bohdan klich, as well as a figure of the russian opposition in emigration, a former member of the state duma, mark fegin. an extremely important conversation is currently on the air of the tv channel. our guest is bohdan klig. ex-minister

of defense of the republic of poland, chairman of the senate committee on european union affairs. congratulations, mr. bohdan, glory to ukraine. good afternoon, glory to ukraine. glory to heroes. well, the key story. in ukraine, they reacted extremely painfully to the story of the polish patriots, perhaps not fully understanding what they are, so i would like to ask you to tell me what it is poland's position, do we have a chance of getting american patriots or polish patriots, and in general, i... you have the concept that poland, perhaps along with our other western allies, would cover part of our ukrainian skies from russian missiles. first of all, it should be said that polish-ukrainian military cooperation has its own history. i myself am responsible for part of this story. then, when he was the deputy prime minister of defense in 1999-2000. and later, when he became the minister of defense. believing that there is no

safe poland without an independent ukraine. and this one the opinion is supported by a significant number of the polish political elite. and since 1991, it has been steadily implemented. and especially now during the war, and the first war, and the second war of russia against ukraine. that is why poland is one of the main donors when it comes to military support for ukraine. i mean support. military equipment and ammunition and this from the first days after february 24, 2022. there is the issue of the aviation coalition, the armored coalition, there is the issue of the ammunition coalition, and obviously there is the issue of anti-aircraft and anti-missile defense coalition and i understand that it is the latter that you are asking about, since there are gaps in your sky, while it should be... and that is why poland supports all the actions of those

countries that have anti-aircraft weapons, aimed at the needs of ukraine. we ourselves delivered part of our anti-aircraft weapons to ukraine, when we still had more of them in storage. the question about the polish patriots is a false question, because unfortunately we only have two patriot batteries. yes, we don't have them anymore, so we can't afford to open. our sky, but the americans stationed in poland have several batteries, so the protection by one american battery announced by president biden will be essential for ukraine. and i understand that the americans made such a decision, but it cannot end there, since president zelensky expects more and is right in these expectations. those who have should also install their anti-aircraft and anti-missile defense systems. such advanced systems, i

mean our nato allies from the west, well, we know that there is, for example, spain, there are many other countries that have patriot systems, and we understand that they may not need them as hotly as we do, so we understand that russia has begun to conduct the so-called syrian approach to the war, which means strikes on civilian cities, on civilian objects jects, killing civilians, this is barbarism, this is ... barbarity, but the russians are going for it, and accordingly, the key task is to convince our western friends and allies to help us strengthen, as you rightly noted, our anti-aircraft defense, and accordingly, there are patriots in many countries, but it is difficult to get them, and it is not only a question of money, maybe there are some additional tools in addition to purely moral ones, well, but the russians are killing the people of kharkiv, for example, this is how they hit the supermarket on the weekend, there were people and they dropped a controlled... aerial bomb, this, this barbarism, this

atrocity, but it happened. this is not a matter of recent days, it is a matter of two whole years of that terrible, brutal war that putin started against... ukraine. i am aware of that, and many of my friends are too, but not all of course, this is a war to destroy the ukrainian state. this is not just a war for territory, it is a war whose primary goal is the destruction of ukrainian statehood. but also to destroy the ukrainian people. and this is not the first time that the russians are trying to destroy the ukrainian people, because they have already done it in the past, at least remember the holodomor. he was the greatest example of that in usta'. times, so there are two goals of putin when it comes to ukraine, and about that, most of us have no doubt. if it is possible to convince others that putin still has some left two goals that directly concern europe and nato directly, then it may be easier

to look for the kind of weapons you are talking about, because putin's next two goals are the destabilization of europe and the paralysis of nato. once again, the destabilization of the european union and... the paralysis of the north atlantic alliance. and some of us are aware of this, but again, not all of us. in this regard, your rhetoric should ensure that the consciousness of those four goals that putin has set for himself, once again, the destruction of the ukrainian state, the destabilization of nato and the destabilization of the eu, the paralysis of nato and the destruction of the ukrainian people, which are all goals that threaten not only the residents of kharkiv. but also threaten the residents of madrid, lisbon, london or rome. this is our common threat. and accordingly, what should we do, how should we correctly build a tough response to the russian aggressor. why i say tough, because it should be

a joint decision of the nato member states on the one hand, well at least on the european continent, because in a few months the situation in the united states may change, and we don't know what there will be a situation in the united states when the president is... not donald trump, but president macron is already preparing for certain scenarios, in lithuania, in latvia, estonia is also preparing for certain additional scenarios, as far as i understand, in poland they are preparing for what may happen, we understand that there is no need for russia to curtail its aggression, because they are involved in a so-called long war, and a long war means large resources, a large number of casualties, and we understand who, in the event of something, will be the first additional victims... of russian aggression, these are the ones listed above countries: poland, lithuania, latvia, estonia. we have not realized this since today, that there is a threat from russia, but it is good that nato now has a broad understanding of this. please note that

a new strategic concept was adopted at the madrid summit, which states, speaking from memory, that russia is the immediate and primary threat to... the north atlantic alliance, not just the eastern flank , poland, lithuania, latvia and estonia, and for the whole of nato. so, over the years, this awareness has taken root, and secondly, important are the decisions made in the same time, adopted by nato, namely increasing the level of cooperation with ukraine to the nato ukraine joint council, where ukraine has the right to participate in decision-making. this is no longer the nato ukraine commission, it is the nato council. ukraine. thirdly, the fund that nato created to support ukraine, which will be increased within the nato-eu framework, is also important. i repeat everywhere that the eu has experienced a copernican revolution. i have been dealing with the eu since 1994. and i have never

seen the european union act so quickly and so decisively as in ukrainian issues. never before. is it possible in matters of the coronavirus? the union was also determined. ah... but now i spoke at the conference here in lviv about the fact that if it is usual for eu decisions to take two and three months, and sometimes even longer, then with regard to the issues of ukraine they are adopted within two weeks, from two to three weeks this is the speed of formula 1 to mercedes. the eu also decided to financially support the transfer of weapons and military equipment to ukraine. who would have thought that the eu would be involved? such things this has never been done before, they even used a special mechanism for what is the european peace facility, from which money goes to reimburse funds for the transfer of weapons and military equipment to those countries that do this, that is, the eu got involved

directly in the supply of weapons and military equipment, that is, ammunition for the ukrainian military, which is fighting. and finally, the third point, this is a whole system of sanctions, both eu and american, which by agreement started working much faster, because the european union launched the first package of sanctions the day before february 24, that is, before the start of the second russian invasion of ukraine. if you are asking against the sources of military aid, then it is obvious that you need to remember the americans, who have delayed for a long time. it was a very long pause, but in the end, the us congress allocated those 60 billion dollars for purely military aid to ukraine, and they are already being implemented. therefore, ukraine is not left on its own either by the states, nor by nato, nor by the eu, nor by individual countries, such as poland, which from the first days has been a donor of... arms and ammunition for ukraine and such countries, which joined later, like germany or

france. the polish-ukrainian-lithuanian brigade, so we understand that the story of the polish-ukrainian joint brigade is extremely important, it was created by you, one of its co-authors, and accordingly i wanted to ask what it is, where it is, how it is now and is there any chance of finally creating a powerful, you know, military unit of the triangle. poland, lithuania and ukraine. there was such an evening when i was sitting at a table covered with papers and at a certain moment i received information about what was happening with polish-ukrainian and polish-lithuanian battalions, because such battalions functioned earlier, especially with regard to the military mission in kosovo or bosnia and herzegovina. and i thought to myself, why not make a joint polish-ukrainian-lithuanian brigade? why not transfer these three lines of cooperation to the... sphere as well. in connection with that, i have certain copyrights, copyright on this project. we

discussed it with our colleagues and presented this idea to the ukrainian side and the lithuanian side, and it was accepted with approval, both in vilnius and in kyiv. at the end of 2009, we signed a memorandum of understanding in this case with ukrainians and lithuanians. and in a few years , the brigade was ready to perform operations, and it has been for about 10 years. exists, only at this moment, since the start of another war by russia against ukraine, it has gained additional meaning. i can only say that it is involved in supporting ukraine with weapons and ammunition and is doing it effectively. but it is also worth saying that everything cannot end there, that is, there are further levels of military integration to of ukraine. and i believe that such a brigade should be increased to the rank of a division. and... the division should consist of brigades that would be appointed by individual countries, and perhaps in

the future it would be possible to create a corps that would include divisions of individual countries. the problem is only with the lithuanian side, due to the fact that it has a smaller armed force, but there is no problem with the ukrainian and polish sides, such a corps or such a division, and then the corps makes sense, because it is an excellent transfer of all knowledge about how it works nato. ukrainian and lithuanian military, but at this moment, after your experience from the battlefield, from a real war, because it is a terrible but real war, transfer is possible in the other direction, now we in nato can learn a lot from you, my conclusion is as follows: until ukraine formally becomes a member of nato, such communication channels should be created so that nato soldiers learn from ukrainians, and ukrainians from nato soldiers, and that as much as possible. so an extremely important signal,

i heard you, well, let's keep our fingers crossed for so that the division really rose up first, and then maybe the corps, but, if we talk about such small steps, president macron started talking about the prospects of having foreign instructors on our territory, we understand that these will not be the people who will try to teach the ukrainians to shoot, so the ukrainians shoot no worse than the french or the poles, but it is about... the possible maintenance of high-precision objects, these are military airfields, yes, because we are waiting and we hope for the f-16 aviation, french mirages, that is, there is hope, but this story drags on for quite a long time, and we understand that this is also a question of pilots, and a question of air defense systems, which should cover airfields, cover military airfields, because the enemy will, of course, have somewhere to aim in the first place. to the locations of aircraft. there are several coalitions that should work better,

or one of them - the aviation coalition. let's list for consistency. there is an armed coalition, a coalition on ammunition issues. the czech initiative is a coalition, which we have already mentioned mentioned, anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems, i.e. anti-missile coalition. poland occupies a leading position in the armored coalition and... handed ukraine a lot of armored vehicles and troop transporters. the czechs occupy a leading position in the coalition on ammunition issues. i hope that the first batch collected in that czech initiative. ammunition will arrive as soon as possible. i mean july this year. there is also an aviation coalition - the launch of which is the most difficult, because the training of ukrainian pilots on the f-16 took some time, even a longer time. but now, from what i know, those planes have already been transferred to ukraine , and i hope that in the near future this

aviation coalition will really support your air power, because the sky over ukraine... should be protected better, so i completely agree, but if to speak tentatively in terms of terms, that is, you feel that in the next couple of months our sky will be covered by f-16s or mirages or some other additional aircraft. i hope so, since the simple one that was in the supply of military weapons, maybe difficult, but significant reduction in the amount of equipment and ammunition, especially artillery ammunition. caliber 152 and 155 mm, it was a big problem for ukrainian soldiers, and thank god they managed to hold the front. the proportions of 1:10, which were very recently, when it comes to the number of artillery shots from the ukrainian side and from the russian aggressor, this is a terrible disparity, but that disparity must change and the artillery

coalition must also work quickly, and here every day is important, as you... talk about that the second half of the year is key, then i will say that the first was also, it's just a pity that during that period the supply of equipment and weapons, as well as ammunition to ukraine decreased, and it was an immediate threat that the aggressor would succeed in breaking through the front line, and this neither ukraine nor europe can afford it. well, but we understand that war is not only artillery, not only aviation, not only tanks, it is also personnel. and mobilization resource, so we understand that the russians have a greater mobilization resource than in ukraine, yes, they they are also starting to look for people all over the world, creating some additional units of mercenaries, so on the other hand we understand that there is a certain initiative of president macron, he announced it, i understand that president macron has put

many european politicians in a not too comfortable position, who now have to react to what president macron said, but i would like to ask you how you see the prospects for the involvement of troops, ground forces of certain european union countries, if the situation becomes critical for us, so be it hope that this will not happen, well, but president macron has said his word, everyone must somehow react to it, there is such a concept as strategic uncertainty, and we should use this concept for a long time, that is , drive the kremlin... into strategic uncertainty, into strategic ambiguity, and i believe that president macron's initiative in this regard makes such sense that the russians do not think to themselves, and europe does not foresee greater military support. i understand it in the same way as the minister of foreign affairs, radosław sikorski in poland. that's how i understand that initiative of president macron. and in principle,

such a comment is enough. when we talk about european. the union and ukraine understand that we are entering the so-called negotiation process. yes, the negotiations are not only about the criteria of democracy, the copenhagen negotiations are also about money, about quotas. well, we understand, yes, that we had a history with ukrainian grain, the european union and part of the polish protesters who blocked the roads. yes, we understand that the situation may not have become simpler, although it may have been some additional regulation mechanisms are involved . we understand that bargaining for money is a sacred matter even for the best neighbors, the way it will all look like, because there is the law of the european union, the legislation of the european union, and there is the legislation of individual national states, in particular poland, hungary and so on, i don't want to compare poland with hungary, well, but we understand, orbán has his own vision, poland has his own

vision, spain has his own, well, in italy there may be another separate story. we have my negotiating experience, and i must say that you are faster, you are faster than poland, because it took us four years to prepare for the start of negotiations on accession to the eu. the application was submitted in 1994, and negotiations began in 1998. you are twice as fast, and in this sense , ukraine is formula 1, and we are just mercedes. it took two years. from 2022 until now, a strategic decision has been made, and now we are talking about the implementation of its content. probably in the last days of june. that is, in a few days, a decision will be made on the practical start of negotiations, that is, the eu will be a negotiating mandate is formed and a so-called intergovernmental conference will be convened, this

ensures that negotiations will begin. from the very beginning, poland sincerely supported ukraine's accession to the eu and will always support it, because you are our most important partner on the eastern side of the border. because of this, we advocated for that. to start negotiations sooner and we advocate that those negotiations move forward quickly. so that there are no downtimes, so that there are no inhibitions, so that they move forward. this is the first. secondly, of course, there are such areas in which both the eu, on the one hand, and ukraine, will have to adapt. ukraine is a powerful country with a large agricultural area and the strength of its agro-industrial complex. there will definitely have to be an adaptation of the eu's common agricultural policy, on the one hand, and on the other hand, the ukrainian agricultural industry. these

efforts will be for both sides. in negotiations, it is always the case that in order for both parties to achieve something, someone must give up something. such negotiations, and we had the most difficult negotiations, in fact, regarding agricultural sector and access to the labor market. you will not have difficult negotiations when it comes to access to the eu labor market, since ukrainians are already on the labor market of eu countries. among others in poland. until recently, before the announcement of mobilization, there were more than 900,000 citizens of ukraine in poland. in particular, there are a lot of workers, without whom it will be difficult for the polish economy to function. we have an understanding of this, so before... entry into the eu labor market, as an example of poland, you already have freedom of movement, so in your case, there will not be such a big problem that we had with the austrians or

the germans, that only a few years after joining the eu, our plumbers, carpenters, our transporters could get a job in the eu countries. instead, the eu will probably also have to adapt its structural policy mechanisms to ukraine. i must say that i watched the course of the last conference on the reconstruction of ukraine with joy, because there two processes were superimposed on each other, that is , the process of ukraine's admission to the european union and the process of ukraine's reconstruction. these two processes are not can move independently. from one, they must be intertwined, must go together. the accession of ukraine to the eu should be connected with the opening of some eu funds for ukraine,

as well as a large fund for the reconstruction of ukraine, which should be coordinated in great detail by your administration, that is , here you need to invest, there you need to invest, here you need to rebuild, there you need to rebuild, and all this must be spelled out very accurately. bohdan klig, ex-minister of defense of the republic of poland and current chairman of the senate commission to the affairs of the european union. the football format changes the time of airing. from now on, you can immerse yourself in the atmosphere of football every monday at 22:00. professional analysis of matches,

exclusive interviews, goals, goals, emotions. the project is for experienced fans as well as for people who appreciate a non-committed view of football. football format, every monday at 22:00 on espresso tv channel. verdict with serhiy rudenko, from now on in a new two-hour format, even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion at any time of the day with the help of a telephone survey, switch on and switch on, verdict with serhii rudenko, from tuesday to friday from the 20th to the 22nd. mark feigin,

a figure in the russian language, will be working on the air of the tv channel now. positions on emigration, former state duma deputy, well-known video blogger. glory to ukraine. mark, you are welcome. i am glad to welcome everyone, well, the civilized part of humanity held a summit, a peaceful summit in switzerland, part of it is uncivilized, went to report to its yes, north korean-chinese curators, so the meeting took place with kim jong-un, and accordingly, bread of friendship, balalaika samovar, but they signed the so-called security agreement, as far as we understand. in order to strain the americans, the japanese and south korea very much. mark, what do you think putin took to north korea? well, first of all, note that ukraine has been signing agreements on security guarantees for a long time, this is some form of monkeying around, because now russia is also signing an agreement on providing mutual security guarantees, their analogue, because there is a clause on military assistance, on the conditions under which an attack

on one of the parties to the agreement will take place. to need military assistance from another side and so on , that is, in some sense, it reminds us that you have allies, and we also have allies, here you have america, you signed such an agreement on june 13, ukraine, and here we are with north korea we sign, apparently, they also feel it valuable, having put a different meaning on this agreement, this is firstly, secondly, look, this visit is both symbolic and practical, i underestimated the degree of its meaning. because, as hitler went to see mussolini, and he could not have gone, to summon him, but he still did it, and in this sense military allies, they become closer through such visits, see how there is an ideological, even unexpected side of this visit , in which putin adapts the north korean model of the system to russia, someone will say: well, it is impossible, where are the north koreans, where is the east, and where is russia, but judge for yourself, the totalitarian system, they are already

the same. in the sense of its totalitarian essence with certain caveats, of course, because russia still left a free state, and north korea has never lived in such a state. they've had the kim dynasty rule totalitarian communist north korea for 80 years, but we're already seeing trends. putin is assembling his dynastic system. we have already talked about it more than once. since the inauguration of his next term, the so-called term, of course, no one has elected him. he is building a dynastic total. system, he is already involving relatives, just a few days ago he appointed his niece, the daughter of a second cousin brother, a certain tsevilova, the wife of minister tsivilov, former governor kusbasa, who originally from st. petersburg, made him deputy minister of defense, and before that dmitry patrushev was made vice prime minister, and before that, at the same time, his son yury kovalchuk was made head of the accounting chamber , his daughter spoke at the st. petersburg international

forum and so on, we see. one dying ancestor is replaced by his son, and i think that putin already has this model in his head, and he has to show this closeness directly, you can’t do it over the phone, you can’t do it on an armored train in vladivostok, but with his visit he shows what the political system will be like in russia, in parallel with this, they are currently discussing whether this agreement will lead to military ukraine, this is impossible rule out, although i am not a member, that north korean military personnel may appear in i think that the agreement is a prerequisite to prevent the bringing of north koreans, they brought nepalese, they brought africans, many people, so the north koreans could appear, probably, i understand that at the state level there are also material and other components that are agreed upon, this is on the one hand, and on the other

hand, it is still such a ... adventurous trick , you see, to find yourself between russians and ukrainians, you must at least understand the language, the mentality. i doubt very much that the young people, most likely the north korean soldiers, are young enough to understand how to behave in this war between the slavs. that is, i think that there will be a decline catastrophic, because we realize that the north korean army, with all its audacious power, which the north korean propaganda itself portrays. but this is generally a very unmodern backward army in hats-in -shanks. but on the other hand, you see, mark, how generously putin began to distribute what was once called the doctrine of the soviet general secretaries, including andropolis, that is, he let the people's republic of china into the sea of ​​japan. so we understand that over the years this issue has been very acute, and navigation on the river.