they knew each other, i understand correctly that what koshyts collected then in the kuban, it was in these cossack villages, he made records, yes, and they too, this archive, alas, they, unfortunately, too, all almost lost, that is , he managed to find about a thousand songs there, and he also compiled such a collection, which even won a certain... of the russian empire, that collection was lost somewhere, and oleksandr koshyts, when he was in exile, wrote that he played these works from memory, and literally several of these sutokuban songs are preserved today in his winnipeg archive, but unfortunately, unfortunately, they have been lost. do i

understand correctly that these were literally a few people who understood the meaning of culture, what started as ukrainophilism, yes, well , ukrainianism, yes, from the community, and then these people who, who understood the meaning of culture, they actually this cultural diplomacy began to be developed, it is correct that it was a very small group of people at the beginning of the century, well precisely as cultural diplomacy... what i managed to find in simon petlyura's publications as an art critic, he is very often simply called a theater critic in historiography, i counted about a hundred of his still unpublished publications in the rada newspaper, which were not only about the theater, there were theater reviews, and literature, music, other types of arts, and in particular one of his publications there was about... about the theater, where he

stated that we need to declare ourselves in the world through theater, and this is 906 or the seventh year, it seems, that is, even then he would be betting the question that through culture and art we need to project, well, the ukrainian idea, the ukrainian people, well, but this is the first time to put it on the level of state policy, it was actually already done during the days of the directorate. and very successfully and indeed as such an innovative project, as i already said , even for the western world, there you have in the film a quote from one of the ministers, it seems to be nikita shapovala, if i am not mistaken, yes, who says that you are allocating money on this on this chapel, you think you will mourn bourgeois europe with our tragedy, our catastrophe, well and on the one hand it sounds... like

cynical, but on the other hand, to some extent he's wrong, and that's what we're seeing now, you thought about what you thought about it, it, it was not alone voice, i.e., first of all, the minister of finance borys martos did not want to give money for this either, it is not time to sing, oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and they, and the minister of finance actually blocked this funding and this is the decision of the directory and then again... they went to vinnytsia to see simon petlyura, petlyura gathered the directory, and they voted again and opened it again financing, and then indeed there is nikita shapoval, well, he questioned in general how appropriate it is, it is necessary to go to the trenches and raise the spirits of our soldiers who are fighting for independence today, and not to lick chobat's entente, and even when they were already acting with success.. . in

europe, we also heard these voices, these claims to the choir, that no, no, we must go home, we must not pretend in the world that we are all right with our songs, we must entertain them, we must talk about drama, about tragedy. , which is unfolding on our fronts, and yes further, that is, it was really these voices, but we see in this project the validity of the fact that we need to declare ourselves in the world. it is necessary to show despite the tragedy, despite the drama, well , the height of our art, as the most convincing voice of ukraine in the world, not a victim, as we are today beaten, we are afraid of this, but really victorious is really the one who says that yes, we sub object of european life, we are worthy of being a member of this circle of free peoples of the world, and it was really a voice that...

only cultural circles, and there are diplomatic circles, queens, we know all these reviews, but, unfortunately, the problem was that the choir was not immediately allowed to join the couple. where they were actually going, that's why they couldn't convince the leaders of the entente in time, as simon petliura planned, i.e. they went for two months, and it took them four months just to go abroad because of this very difficult period in ukraine, i.e. simon petliura but i sincerely believed that they could just politically make the mother's mission, that is, not only a cultural one, but through culture. to affect politics and the decision of the paris conference? absolutely, well, let's say, it's obvious that it was just about such an image project that would influence kol, on the information environment, but the plan was that they would go to

paris and give a series of concerts in paris, so we know there from monographs, studies of the paris peace conference, that indeed decisions were made not only at the table. meetings, negotiations, but somewhere on the sidelines, somewhere during trips to theaters, yes, that is, this conference really took place for months, and there were hopes that these leaders of the entente, these presidents, these prime ministers would visit ukrainian concerts, and see our art, as it happened in previous countries, in czechoslovakia, in prague, it is also very poignant in the film, as reflected as they were originally. absolutely such radically negative attitudes towards ukrainians, towards the idea of ​​ukrainian independence, and then after this song there was admiration and there was support for the idea of ​​ukrainian independence through culture, because we saw that it is not

the russians, that this is really an independent people and nation, and then they referred to this postulate of woodrow wilson about the right of a nation to self-determination, when they went, i understand that... they went to america, and it was an impresario who, who also, not everything was so clear with him there, yes, who took them to america, that he also perceived it as part of russian culture, and positioned it as part of russian culture, tell me about it, yes, well, that is, it was the impresario max rabinov, who himself came from the territory of the russian empire, somehow emigrated from his own country time to america. and indeed, even before the cooperation with the ukrainians, he as an impresario brought anna pavlova's ballet there, a group of russian balalaikas, the stereotype is understandable, and he simply focused on these areas as

such a competitive artistic product and interestingly exotic for the american world, and he attended several concerts moreover, in five different countries... i also managed to find, among these several thousand reviews of the american press, his interview with the washington times, where he said that i had visited at the concerts of this choir in five different countries in europe, and the ovation they received from the public, i have never seen, i decided, america should know this beautiful art, this is direct speech, his quote that says that really he was impressed by this singing, and they too, as very professional, cultural managers, marketers, i gather. during their european tour, this portfolio, that is , they printed booklets with the best reviews, fragments of these reviews from the european press, well, they took it all to america, but with of the very first such concerts , the problem of the view of this project on

the part of impresario max rabinov really appeared , and according to his decision , two ukrainians were invited to this project. is a russian performer, that is, it was condensed into one concert, as it were, but it consisted of four sections, that is, for example, the premiere at carnegie hall, it was completely unspoken, and last year we initiated at the national philharmonic in kyiv concert-reconstruction, where we recreated the first part one by one of the then premiere at carnegie hall, these are seven ukrainian songs that opened the then premiere in october 22nd. in carnegie hall, and the first part ended with a schaedryk by mykola leontovych, and the concert began with a canto of the last judgment by porfiry demutsky, well, this is a separate topic, that the choir of the ukrainian radio, which, by the way, participated in our documentary, is a choir that records for funds

radio our heritage, well, half of this repertoire was unknown to him, and i also found this repertoire in the archive, printed. the music department of the ministry of arts in january 1919 , the sheet music of the songs with which they will go to kordun were printed, and this cant is a terrible judgment, we are actually based on the sheet music of the 19th year. yes, and the first and fourth sections of carnegie hall were ukrainian songs, and the fourth section were 10 ukrainian songs, and by the way, dudarik by mykola leontovich was also performed there for the first time, because dudarik was not performed in europe, koliskova performed there for the first time oh, vasyl barvinskyi's dream is walking, arranged by oleksandr koshlyts, that lullaby, which we then see her we guess in summer time gershwin and here... it was also performed for the first time at carnegie hall, and the premiere at carnegie hall also concluded

mykola lysenko's composition po openky hoda, which is also rarely performed on our stage today, but here are the two sections of the middle, inside it there were works by great russian composers, oh-oh, in the repertoire of which, therefore, there were also works by tchaikovsky, that is, tchaikovsky in this program... just belonged to this russian part of this ukrainian presentation, and in general, also in the film about it is said that there was a mixture, that despite the fact that there were 40 ukrainian performers and among them two russian women, the press began to call the whole team russian, yes russian team, we will talk about tchaikovsky, i also want to ask you about their fate in north america, why them, maybe i am wrong, but why the diaspora did not accept them, or did not

recognize them as their own, did accept them, but he complained somewhere that košice complained that he was not in demand, then later, then already when he finished his tours and stayed in emigration, he lived for 20 years after this tour ended in 1924, koshyt lived until the 44th, so he complained. already in this period, that the ukrainian emigration, well, his work, that his work was not in demand, that it was not published, that he continued to initiate one or another projects, there were recordings of ukrainian songs, concerts, tours, that is, he lacked recognition , and the demand for him as a specialist was different at first, so when they first arrived, their immigration... was waiting, when they arrived in new york, on this big

ship coronia, it was already waiting for them there about a hundred ukrainians, in new york, here with yellow and blue flags, and it is mentioned there, by the way, this is also very interesting, in the film we could not reproduce everything, and the greater emphasis was even on this little-known european component of history šchedryka, and this is a separate, well , interesting page, how they... appeared on the ship and roared, ukraine was not dead to them yet, and they looked at the statue of liberty, that is, this is a separate and interesting page, it was still the first wave of emigration , it is not there yet, it is the 20s, there is no second wave there yet, there is no in of the postan army, nothing, yes, but there were already permanent institutions, institutions, there the national union is so ukrainian, there were church ones. at the churches, at the orthodox, at the greek catholic, košice was still very happy that finally the orthodox and catholics united,

because they went to concerts together and then organized such diplomatic receptions in honor of this choir, and finally košice said that they had reconciled, that is, these concerts really united ukrainians both in europe and in america, who hoped, god forbid, that on free the lands of washington sang the will of ukraine, oh... i also found such a review a week before the premiere in carnegie hall, the galician priest lev sembratovych wrote such a long review, where it was said that they hope that it did not succeed in europe, now in to america, they sing the will of ukraine, and this is a generous premiere, something that i also wanted to say later that this is not just a history of cultural diplomacy, but that it is a history of the struggle against the russian world, that's why this is the second edition of the book. this book has appeared, please to hold on a little longer so that we can show it,

so it appeared before, this is the book that precedes the film, and yes, it is still 2019, that is , i actually supplemented this first edition of mine with significant materials and published it in 2019 , and i remember that somehow even then it was not well received, in particular in the musical environment, this is such a field. persuaded to go back to bolshevik? of the soviet union of bolshevik ukraine, in fact, has anyone returned from them? well, this is also a separate topic for research, because well, it's really 80 people who left, and here i am i also really want to closely examine all these biographies, what is known and what we partially showed in the film is the tragic fate of petr

stetsenko, he is the brother of the composer kyryll stetsenko, that is, košice and statsenko. instructed to create this choir, and kyrylo stetsenko was the head of the music department, just as koshyts was the first head of the music department, that is , government officials, civil servants of the ukrainian people's republic of ukraine, and mykola leontovych, what i emphasize, was a civil servant of the ministry of arts, so i have an idea for our to inform the minister of culture, give a portrait of mykola levontovych hang in the corridors of the ministry of culture, and american delegations will visit you, you will be proud. that we had the autoril of the bells working, that is, unfortunately, everything has to be reported through shchedryk, those krygts that remained, yes, that is, we have to rely on them, yes, that is, mostly people remained in the west, yes, dear, i interrupted myself, that is, strictly speaking, kyrylo stetsenko did not go, his brother petro stetsenko went, who was not only a singer, but also

an administrator, well, he performed such administrative functions in the team, and he america i didn’t go, because it’s also a separate story there, and in fact, in about 5.5 years , about seven choirs were created there from this large, well, first collective, and part of it was also supplemented, and here is petro statsenko, he remained in europe in the 20s years he returned to kyiv, lived in kyiv for some time and then in kherson, and in 1937 he was actually tortured in the kherson prison, and... even managed to meet his daughter kira stetsenko in america, because she is from my mother then left during the second world war. ugh, that's why it's fate it was mostly among those who returned, because they were diplomats from unery, well , they didn't mention oleksandr košitsas either, of course , only because he had such a direct

relationship with petlyura, that is. and the first mentions appeared in the 60s, with this so-called thaw and even the red viburnum, it was impossible to forgive this song, and the text is the same, and what is very interesting and important is when they stayed on emigration i like to draw such parallels 20 years after... after this tour ended, oleksandr koshyt gathered his choir again in 1944 in new york, they recorded such an album of songs "hear" sing, hear ukraine sings, well , that is, you even know, again such a telling name, and then they recorded this song on the album oi luzi chervona kalina, but it was, well , it was a project for the americans, so they translated the names of the songs, and the red viburnum

was translated into english as ukraine we will free, the year 1944, that is, well, an annotation was also submitted that it was a song from the first world war war, times of the ukrainian people's republic, and today we sing this viburnum again, precisely putting this meaning and this name, to liberate, to liberate ukraine from moscow's shackles, it was impossible to accept and forgive the soviet authorities, there was still time. i purposely tried to talk about the kyiv music academy named after tchaikovsky, now such discussions are ongoing, tchaikovsky ukrainian, not ukrainian, descendant of cossack, not descendant, cossack, but what do you think, and maybe you have some facts about košice, how he treated tchaikovsky , for him

tchaikovsky was a russian composer or a ukrainian composer, oleksandr koshyts loved and respected tchaikovsky's work. when he was at the kyiv-mohyla academy, then at the kyiv theological academy, he first studied, and then he was the conductor of the academic choir, and he revived vedel at his concerts, well, but at the same time, he was also interested there and loved the work of tchaikovsky , but then in his memoirs he wrote, well, in fact, he was ironic about those of his contemporaries, fellow countrymen, as he wrote, fellow countrymen who want to convert tchaikovsky to... a ukrainian, that is, already then, absolutely, yes, then there were already these attempts to prove to themselves and the world that tchaikovsky is ours, but oleksandr koshets, as a musician. well, he perceived his work, but he also obviously understood that it was russian music, well , it was interpreted by the world, and he probably

guessed a little of that ukrainian melody, which today we want to guess so much, that is why these discussions continued even then, and he was an opponent of dragging tchaikovsky into ukrainianism, well, my position is that we need to build this pantheon of notable musical acts. swords, somewhere there tchaikovsky can be, like, a person who has a genetic relationship there, etc., but he should not be on top, that’s for sure, that is, the first places should be those figures who dedicated their lives to ukraine, especially to the ukrainian struggle for independence, what hurts and resonates with us today, especially the struggle for independence from russia, what resonates most acutely with us today, and here , of course, oleksandr koshyts is in the lead. as far as i'm concerned, in this pantheon he is mostly interpreted as a composer and conductor, i also see him in the category

of a cultural diplomat, a top cultural diplomat in the history of ukraine, because today we actively use this term, but really he was a figure who was perhaps the only one in our history of ukraine personally delegated by the government . the commander-in-chief of ukraine, then the head of state, to the world with the mission of promoting the idea of ​​ukraine as a state independent from russia through art and culture, and he fulfilled this mission 100%. tina, you spoke, you spoke, say, with the management of kyivska conservatory, well, the academy of music, because if you look at the official page of the kyiv national academy of music, they write that... that tchaikovsky's contribution to ukrainian culture is such that the famous composer often visited kyiv, first, the first merit,

he willingly communicated with many musicians , secondly, he also congratulated, helped and congratulated ukrainian artists on their success, that is, this is the basis, as it were, the argumentation that they want to keep the name of the music academy, right? you talked to these people, i organized an exhibition dedicated to my history there generous, and this year with the support of the us embassy, ​​in the premises of the national academy of the conservatory, and i hesitated a little whether to make a presentation, an opening there, but i decided that the first presentation of this project would be there, well, to show our an alternative, our independent one. ukrainian composer and music school, that we have a much better list of names that deserve to be even oleksandr koshyts, he really worked there in

the conservatory back in his time, well, here too it is difficult to do without the shchedryk brand, so positioning koshyt there as a generous godfather and conservatory worker, we can say that he could have a place here, because... unfortunately, oleksandr koshyt today does not have such an honor, there is no music school, college or a conservatory not named in his honor, that is, a person who was responsible for popularizing the ukrainian school of composers in the world, thanks to him , the names of mykola lysenko, mykola leontovych appeared in the world press, well, of course, we constantly have to talk about shchedryk, which was composed by the conductor who glorified shchedryk by the name of koshuts. there are no educational institutions named in general, none today in ukraine, and therefore i also hope that next year 2025, when we will celebrate

the 150th anniversary of oleksandr koshyts, it will be an opportunity to raise this issue, the naming of musical institutions in ukraine in his honor , i think, in view of his, well, this colossal mission that he did for ukraine 100 years ago, a musical in his honor. academy could be named. tina, thank you. let's get on with it let's finish our conversation on this idea. thank you, thank you for taking the time to come and talk to us, i hope we all actively give back ours. as one historian said, ukrainians have a lot of academic debt. in front of many people, oleksandr kosych is actually one of them. artists, cultural figures, cultural diplomats, who needs to return. thank you for being with us. attention, a profitable offer,

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analyzed the new resolutions to inform you about the latest changes in ukrainian legislation, how legislative norms change our lives, what to prepare for, these and other questions that concern ukrainians will be answered by the leading lawyers of the aktum bar association. watch every tuesday at 7:55 in the program legal examination on espresso tv channel. with serhiy rudenko, from now on in a new two-hour format, even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback, you can express your opinion on the evil of the day with the help of a telephone survey, turn on and turn on, the verdict with serhiy rudenko, from tuesday to friday from 20 to 22.

the kharkiv attack, unfortunately, resulted in a death, and the number of victims has increased. the situation at the front. muscovites are not appeased in which directions the enemy is storming and the second anniversary of the liberation of snake island. greetings viewers of espresso, anna yavomelnyk is with you. in the final issue , the news editorial team collected the main points for today. the russians populated the center of kharkiv with cabals. and unfortunately, there is already a dead person, at least nine people are injured, among them an eight-month-old baby - informs the mayor of the city igor terikhov. the occupiers hit the center of the city with guided aerial bombs. as a result of the attack , a fire broke out at the civil enterprise palat.