give part of ukraine to putin and forbid joining nato. the western press writes that this is how donald trump sees the way to end the war, provided he wins the elections. what are they saying about it in kyiv and to what extent... what kind of peace plan is likely, we will analyze in today's edition of the bbc, i am olga palamaryuk. donald trump talks about the end of russia's war against ukraine, almost in every speech, from the end of hostilities in 24 hours to the radical reorientation of nato and the complete rejection of ukraine's entry into the alliance. even on during the pre-election debates held last week, trump spoke about ukraine, saying that he was not satisfied with the white house's support for ukraine in the first place. in financial terms, that

if he had been the president, the war would not have started at all, and then he added: if he becomes the president, he will settle, as he said, the war between putin and zelensky even before taking office, but the matter was not limited to this statement, on the eve of the publication politico published a long article with reference to us national security experts. it says that trump already has a plan to end the war, however, while at the project stage, my colleagues gathered what about him. is known how does donald trump see the end of the war in ukraine and what will happen to nato? the publication politico published a large material about his likely steps in the event of being elected president of the united states. the article contains a thorough analysis of his statements, citing defense and security experts who have worked with trump for a long time. one of the main theses of trump's plan is not only an increase in defense spending, but also a radical reorientation of nato. the idea is that the us will keep its nuclear. solka over

europe, continuing to keep its aviation at bases in germany, turkey and england. however , the main part of the material and technical support of armored vehicles and artillery will mostly come under the control of the usa to european countries. the second thesis is the two-tier system of nato, which means that member countries that do not spend 2% of their gdp on contributions to the alliance will not be able to claim us security guarantees. alarm bell for ukraine. contained in the following thesis about the probable condition of the end of the war, an agreement with russia, according to which nato undertakes not to expand eastward, in particular to ukraine and georgia. in addition, one of the likely steps may be negotiations with putin regarding which territories ukraine can cede to russia. politico points out that at the moment it is about a project, and not about an adopted decision, because trump himself did not publicly disclose his plans for ukraine, however, during the elections. during the campaign, he repeatedly

promised to end the war as one of his top priorities. but why does trump make such statements, and what consequences can they have? we talk about it with our guest, head of the vezha public analytics center, valery kluchok on the phone. congratulations, mr. valery, let's start with this article, i'm sure you 've read it. you were surprised by trump's position, as it is described there, that he seems to be ready to negotiate with putin, which part. cannot, as he says, be given to russia? hello friends, yes i have read this article, it is really very huge, it is a few, well, maybe a dozen printed pages in small print, and it describes in general not what trump's position is there in relation to ukraine, the larger article focuses the reader's attention on trump's attitude to the north atlantic alliance, i would probably note the most telling, this is the comment of bolton, the former head, i'm sorry...

of national security in the time of trump, who says that trump's idea, and if we talk about trump, it is not how he will treat nato , but when he will leave it, because today the biggest threat to euro-atlantic cooperation is precisely the gradual withdrawal of the united states of america from this military-political bloc, which will eventually put a very heavy burden on the countries of europe and on britain as well, because britain... as far as i'm concerned now plays a key role in security projects in europe in general, i'm very happy to say that frankly, because britain can ask absolutely a new tone in the conversation about the creation of a new military-political bloc with the participation of ukraine, and this is a great asset against the background of such a political crisis in the russian federation and the euro-atlantic crisis in general, that is why i read this article in this way, i perceive... it through

the prism of the crisis and as the possibility of new ones opportunities to apologize for the taptology to strengthen the security of europe, because this issue is very topical today, as for... ukraine, of course, the statements of the trumps, they did not surprise me at all, and the fact that he was going to trade our territories with putin there, earlier there is nothing new here, but it is noteworthy that indeed trump himself speaks publicly about the unacceptability of putin's ideas, and the heads of his staff publicly state that such a plan exists, it exists, it can be implemented if trump hears it. yes, i have a question we will talk about nato a little later, but returning to the issue of ukraine, trump often says that if he were the president, russia's war against ukraine would not have started at all. in your opinion, why does he say that, what does it mean to him? trump is a populist, we must make it clear, trump is not a systematic politician, not consistent, and he has no practice of implementing any projects,

he acts purely impulsively, any statements he makes should not be taken seriously, he is today says no, another one says tomorrow, so i tell her what's new there is no from trump, and in this one... they also write that trump can change his position with a 180° turn in just a few minutes. and the fact that he says during the debate that he does not accept putin's plan, he will say tomorrow that putin's plan is great, it must be implemented. this is the biggest challenge for today, both for ukraine and for europe in general. yes, there is this impermanence. yes, mr. valery, stay in touch, because it is worth noting separately the reaction of russia, which also started this month to chair the un security council, and this is what the russian ambassador said about trump's plan . let's listen. the ukrainian crisis cannot be resolved in one day. this is objective. president putin recently said where we are now on the issue of the ukrainian crisis. it could have been resolved in april 2022 in istanbul, where we were close to

an agreement, but western sponsors of ukraine intervened, including boris johnson, who told the ukrainians, who told the kyiv regime to continue fighting. with russia yes, we are let's return to the conversation with our guest. mr. valery, to sum up everything we talked about, how do you think this article and these statements of trump should be reacted in the west? the reaction is already appropriate and the appropriate steps have already been taken. i am glad that in europe today there is a wing of politicians who, i mean nato europe, who today have a different position from the white house, including britain. i attribute it to this very wing, which is set up more radically, in relation to concrete. steps to ensure safety security projects in europe to prevent russian aggression, firstly, a mission of 700 military personnel from all 32 member countries of the alliance, including the usa, has been created, which will be stationed there, this decision will be officially

announced already at the nato summit in washington from 9 to july 11, and today everyone in the alliance understands that ukraine needs to be strengthened and helped. according to the reports of your colleagues, journalists of the reuters publication, who reported today that a decision has indeed already been made to provide ukraine with aid in the amount of 40 billion euros for 2025, this is not enough, but it seriously creates a platform and a basis for us to speak from a position of strength with the kremlin on possible future negotiations on ending the war, so there is already a reaction, but not to the article, to the situation, the journalists simply described in detail what actually takes place today in trump's headquarters, which uses ukrainian. question and in general the question of nato in its pre-election program in order to satisfy its own voter, that is exactly what the problem is today, but i am happy to say once again that europe is reacting to this early on, the only thing i would like, i would very much like to wish, is that europe increases its capabilities in the matter of strengthening security. thank

you for the analysis, it is so thorough, the head of the vezhe public analytics center, valery kolichok, was on our air, thank you, thank you, and in ukraine, the president reacted to trump's statements. in an interview with bloomberg tv, he said that any peace proposal must avoid violating ukraine's sovereignty. and the head of the office of president andriy yarmak, who is currently arriving in the usa, said that ukraine listens to advice on how to achieve peace, but without compromising on issues of freedom or territorial integrity. but what is said in the united states about this plan of trump, we will ask the correspondent of the ukrainian voice of america service, ostaparysh in connection with washington. congratulations. oleg, how do the politicians in the usa react to the article, what do they say to the media in the first place? indeed, i consider this article primarily from the point of view of the potential plans or vision of donald trump and his administration regarding nato. this article really talks about ukraine, but more attention, as

the previous guest said, is still devoted to plans for nato. it is important to clarify here that analysts and trump's advisers have talked about this before, that no position is official until it is voiced by donald trump himself. the things that we are hearing now that are being discussed now in zma are either comments from former bras, or as in this case, for example, comments from experts who are pro-trump, as politico journalists say, we have heard other plans before, too , which were supposedly presented to the former american president, and yet from him personally we have not heard any concrete statements yet, yes we have heard his promises to end the war in a day or so before he enters the white house, however , we have not heard specifics from trump or his staff yet, these proposals are indeed there, we are not we know how donald trump reacts to them, how they react to them in the headquarters and whether... these proposals are really a plan and some concrete things that his administration

is going to implement in the event that trump is elected president, how observers who follow the russian war react against ukraine, appealed attention, yes, these comments are being reacted to with alarm, and they say that this is one more thing that needs to be addressed and at least remembered, when people talk like this about the potential course of the american election, we know that there is a lot of uncertainty right now, especially after.. . yes, which took place between trump and biden last week, so the reaction is approximately the same, they are reacting more to possible plans or possible decisions regarding nato, they are talking about ukraine, but rather on the background, here yes, but let's look at this situation, on this article from another angle, from the side americans, ordinary people, yeah, what's their reaction, to stop the war through territorial concessions, what they say about this... what's the plan, you know, different opinions actually i've heard over the last two years,

or when we talk about, say, american legislators, or about their assistants, or about analysts, or in the end about ordinary citizens of the united states, that is, there is a part that absolutely rejects such proposals, says that it cannot be about this, because after that putin can attack one of members of the alliance, or whether we are talking about poland, whether we are talking about the baltic countries, about this, by the way, joe biden also... mentioned recently at the debate that we cannot talk about any territorial concessions, this opinion is circulating, another opinion that also comes from supporters, maybe , in order to stop support, they say that it is necessary to achieve peace at any cost, it is necessary that people stop dying, and actually for them, perhaps even some territorial concessions are a solution to this issue, that is, they perceive the absence of hostilities as peace, yes, that is, in such a prism. and this also came from people from the circles

who are possibly around donald trump or people who are sympathetic to him, in particular factions in the american congress, that is, such thoughts also circulate, and they present this as an achievement primarily for the sake of a peaceful settlement of this situation , of course , we hear objections to this from the ukrainian side, and today i think president volodymyr zelenskyi also clearly said this, so does the current government have a plan in case? after all, the coming to power of trump, as a surety help to ukraine? well, it should be understood that in november there will be elections not only for the president, there will also be elections for the american congress, a lot will depend on which of the parties will get the majority in the house of representatives in the american senate, and before that we heard reports in zma that they are discussing plans to reformat the meetings in the ramstein format, so that after all nato, other countries had more say and should have more. management over this format in order to protect against possible risks associated with the elections

the united states, and perhaps we will hear some decisions about long-term support at the nato summit, here in washington, we know that a number of countries are signing security treaties with ukraine, including, so there are some movements so far, and again, a very unpredictable election campaign in usa this year, and things are changing very quickly, so there are concerns about what the foreign policy will be like. states in the event of donald trump coming to power, after all, some criticize joe biden for possibly not being sufficiently determined or decisions are too appropriate in this regard, discussions continue, legislators comment, experts comment, we will monitor how this situation will develop further, and we will also monitor, ostap yarysh from washington was on our air, thank you colleague, so subscribe to our pages in social networks so as not to miss the most important news, we are in... you can watch our episode if you missed

it on the air, and we will be on the air again tomorrow at 21, all is well, take care! olenivka is a prison in the occupied territory of ukraine. since the beginning of the full-scale invasion, the russians have held thousands of prisoners of war there. and civilian hostages. this is a preserved, abandoned prison. it was uncanned just before the start of filtration. i think we were one of the first to get there. people interviewed by journalists for kyiv independent

remember this prison with horror, because of hunger and brutal treatment by its employees. here he was still running, he was still so short in height, he was still bragging that i was so small, but my kick was so sharp, belt wrapped it around his hand and stood there with a belt, there was a room where the boys were taken, where they were tortured for several hours, they wrapped them with tape and beat them very hard. olenivka became the place of mass murder of ukrainian prisoners of war, he shines the beam of this flashlight on this road, and i just saw that until the end of that flashlight, it was just covered with bodies, you know. we collected information step by step about how the prison functioned, its

guards, managers and curators from russia. our team recorded dozens of interviews with people who returned from captivity and witnessed gross violations of international law. some of our interlocutors will remain anonymous for security reasons. we were able to reproduce the picture of the terrible deer, albeit with some white spots. february 24, 2022. russian troops invaded the territory of ukraine. land, sky and sea were advancing on mariupol, an industrial city on the shores of the sea of ​​azov. for 86 days , the ukrainian army defended mariupol

under daily bombardment. 82 of which in full environment. military servicewoman maryana mamonova managed the medical service of the marine corps unit. i found out in mid-march, when we were already at the factory. all. you know, they ask me questions, they write comments, how could i not know that you are pregnant. you know, maybe in such civil conditions, you would have learned about it much faster. we had tasks to perform, we had wounded people, we had to evacuate. i had one fertility test, but it

showed positive. you can imagine, positive result in mariupol, a city that is a city that is simply demolished from the face of the earth, and you understand that you will be in a small one. for almost a month and a half, maryana mamonova rescued wounded soldiers in mariupol, surrounded by the russians. even a man who was in another region of ukraine. didn't know about her pregnancy, at the end of march, i wasn't sure that i would survive, i wrote him messages and sent emojis, you know, there's mom, dad, there's a girl, mom, dad, a boy, and i thought that he , well, he still guesses, he guessed, but, as he told me, to accept

that thought that his wife was pregnant, and in mariupol he was afraid, every day... the situation in mariupol became worse and worse. problems with weapons, food and water began. russian troops occupied the city kilometer by kilometer. and when we were moving to one of the combat positions, the car was stopped, and we were stopped by russian soldiers who, having opened the car, aimed their weapons at us and said that we were prisoners of war of the russian federation and the donetsk people's republic. it. april 6 , 2022. maryana mamonova as the prisoner of war was taken to olenivka together with other marines. the prison is almost 100 km from the place of their service. at that time, this name did not

mean much. almost four months remained before the tragedy, after which the whole world learned about olenivka. since the 1990s, the deer park functioned as a correctional colony for men in the donetsk region. after the seizure of part of the region in 2000-14, it came under the control of the pro-russian occupation authorities and was subordinated to the illegally created service of execution of punishments with the center of management in donetsk. for some time, the occupation authorities held convicts there, but later the prison was confiscated. with the beginning of the full-scale invasion of russia, olenivka became a camp for prisoners of war and civilian hostages from mariupol. we were brought to olennik, it was 3 o'clock in the morning or four o'clock, one of these russian soldiers said that there was a woman entering the car, they made a decision that

we would take them out first, i saw how our boys were received, there was a command to run out quickly, when they run out, they are immediately beaten with sticks, with russian escorts with sticks are coming from one end and from the other. dogs don't look at what to beat, they just beat, beat and beat. april 10-14, 2022. new and new groups of ukrainian prisoners of war were brought to olynivka. the so-called reception lasted for several hours, it was accompanied by beatings and abuse. they kick you out of the bus, they quickly ask you your last name, middle name, then they drive you into the yard, then they put you in the so-called position on the courts, you sit in a deep squat,

you can't stand on your toes, you can't change the position of your legs, your hands must always be behind your head, your back is straight, your head is bent, if you ask a question, you will be beaten, if you lower your hands, you will be beaten on the hands because you lower them, if you try to sit down, they will beat you on the back, respectively, that you stand up and then on the legs that don't bend, because the legs hurt really hard, really hard, and then you start to get up, fall, get up again and just like that you jog back there, further to the isolation cell. kostyantyn velychko, an aitivets resident, and yevhen malyarchuk, a businessman from mariupol. in the early days of a full-scale invasion, they as volunteers were taking civilians out of the blockaded city. both were detained at checkpoints by representatives of the occupying forces and sent to olenivka, like other civilians who did not pass the filtering, a humiliating illegal check on leaving the occupied territories.

regarding the conditions, you must understand that this is a preserved, abandoned prison. it was uncanned just before the start of filtration. i think we were one of the first to get there. the first building where prisoners of war and civilian hostages went after the so-called reception is this dizo, disciplinary isolation cell of the prison. a dilapidated room where the sewage is constantly flowing, the smell is terrible, the floor is concrete, there are no benches, and if there are, they are metal. everything is in mold, in fungus, everything is damp. and very cold, for two or three weeks we were in the detention center, only then we were transferred to the barracks, for three weeks we rotted there in

overcrowded cells, from 21-22 people up to 40-50, when they were crowded, a new stage arrived, they immediately stuffed to the cells, you can't sleep because there's nowhere to lie down, we slept in three shifts, we had a guard on duty, how much time has passed, waking up those who fell asleep. the rest were lying down, others were standing, the radio was constantly playing, the light was always on, it was never turned off, they slept on the floor, on the concrete, i was lucky that i took my winter jacket, it was my mattress and pillow and blanket. the average temperature at night in april-may was 5-9°c. there was no heating in the buildings. i fell asleep and said, god, i probably won't wake up in the morning because i was simply, simply freezing, and everyone was sleeping dressed in boots, everyone who had everything, and to each other, you know, huddled together so that you could at least, well... at least

somehow warm up. all the prisoners we talked to, without exception, also said that there was a critical shortage of food and water in olenivka. the first few days, a piece of bread and a glass of water. that's all the food. in the future, it has already been launched. they began to give a stove, boilers, something like thin soup, some tea without sugar, well, it’s hard to call it tea either, macaroni and even porridge later appeared, we wanted to eat all the time, all that saved us there was bread, with a barn there was not problems, you start hiding this bread, you can't eat it all for lunch, because you have

to leave it for the evening, and i always... you know, i had some stashes of bread, i was constantly hiding food in my pockets for some reason, i was afraid that i won't have anything to eat, everyone was sick, we were fed from one dish, of course, about 200 people in dizo, and for all dizo, probably 20 sets of plates and spoons, carried around the cells, thrown, people ate, gave dirty, water in system never appeared, it was brought, it was technical, it was so-called potable, its potable it's hard to say, it was brought in in fire trucks, it was a mess, we used to tear t-shirts, make something like gauze to pour this water over and clean it of rust.

i just wanted to drink plain water to get drunk, just to get drunk, instead of rinsing your mouth and spitting it out, because if you swallow this water, you will have a stomach ache, something else, tatyana eldiab served as a cook under... motorized infantry brigade. she signed a contract with the ukrainian army a few months before the full-scale war. in polon, she got into the territory of one of the mariupol metallurgical plants, which the ukrainian military used as a shelter. when you enter olenivka, everything changes. there is no life there. dezo, on the floor,

broken tiles. and you feel the same as that tile, it was morally very difficult, to be without food, without water, without medicines, even without feminine hygiene. during the first three months of the full-scale war, the prison operated under the banner of the pro-russian occupation authorities. olenivka staff consisted of local people. laboratory technicians, employees of the prison system. they hid their face, in contrast from special forces who were brought for the so -called reception of prisoners of war. they are for russia, they told us that we do not exist, ukraine does not exist, only they exist, and the future belongs only to them, because we were not people for them. i remember these words. in order to live, the women

constantly lived in cells on the second floor of the disciplinary detention center, on the first floor there was a room where the men were taken for so-called interrogations, they were tortured for several hours, and the girls constantly beat the door with their hands and shouted, you know, stop, stop, you're just not you. you know how people scream, it was so hard for me in those moments, you know, i cried constantly, i couldn't control myself, not for 5 minutes, not for 10, but for hours, hours one, two, when at night you hear a sound, that opens duct tape, you...