what is hungarian prime minister viktor orbán looking for in moscow, who authorized him to negotiate an end to the war, what is his main goal of these kyiv-moscow moves. about this today in svoboda live, my name is vlasta lazur. so, hungarian prime minister viktor orban is in moscow. the peace mission continues - he wrote on his social networks immediately after arriving in the russian capital and published a photo from moscow. the hungarian side demonstrates in every possible way that this visit is for the sake of peace and for the sake of putting an end to human suffering. yes, in particular, the head wrote in his social networks peter sijarto of the hungarian ministry of foreign affairs. the big question is, actually, who and if anyone at all authorized orbán for this peace mission? we will talk about it in detail. in a minute,

i'll just remind you that viktor orban, the second leader of the european union, who came to moscow after the start of russia's full-scale war against ukraine. on april 22nd, actually at the beginning of the invasion of russia, chancellor of austria karl nehamer came. the hungarian prime minister is, in principle, one of the few western leaders who met with vladimir putin after the start of the war. prime minister of hungary repeatedly advocated the continuation of eu cooperation with russia and criticized the eu for providing military. aid to ukraine. see how orban was met by putin today. pay attention, the table is small, and this is a sign, albeit indirect, that orban is a welcome rather than an unwanted guest for the kremlin. i hope we will have an opportunity to exchange ideas about the construction.

bilateral relations in this difficult situation, you have come here to discuss all the nuances of the situation that has developed in the kyiv direction, in the ukrainian direction. you you probably know about my speech before the leadership of the ministry of foreign affairs in moscow, where our positions regarding a possible peaceful settlement are outlined. i expect that you will introduce me to your position and to the position of european partners. hungary. the only european country that can talk to everyone. i would like to know your position on several important issues for europe. so, moscow became the second stop of orbán's so-called peace mission. on the second of july, literally the second day after hungary began to preside over the eu, viktor orban came to kyiv, where he offered zelensky to cease fire and sit down at the negotiating table with putin. at that time, zelensky did not directly respond to orban's proposal. at least publicly,

for sure, it seems, and it still remains unclear, in whose capacity orbán made such a proposal, as the prime minister of hungary, or as a european leader? as some political scientists assume, he deliberately leaves room for maneuver so that everyone wonders who orbán represents, only hungary or the eu in general. in the european union, orban's visit to moscow was criticized by the head of the eu council according to the principle of rotation, does not give the hungarian prime minister the authority to conduct a dialogue with russia on behalf of the entire eu. said the head of the european council, charles michel. olena abramovich will tell more details about the reaction of european leaders to orban's so-called peace mission, she is in touch with us from brussels. elena, good evening, congratulations. as for orban's visit to the kremlin, the eu reacted to the kremlin. what are the reactions? greetings vlasto, well, indeed, there was such a wave of indignation and reaction in brussels since yesterday evening, when moscow and budapest... actually not

were denied and not confirmed during this visit, angry comments were then scattered in the x social network, it was both the leader of poland and finland, and the ministry of foreign affairs of estonia reacted, the president of the european council charles michel accused orbán of overestimating the mandate of his presidency in the council of the european union, well, the fact is that every six months , the eu countries take over this leading role in the eu council from july 1 for the first time in 14 years, because there are many countries, that is, this opportunity does not happen like that... often the presidency passed into the hands of hungary, well and critics insisted that orban's visit to moscow during this presidency casts a shadow over the entire bloc, because putin is such a person of dislike here, and orban is the only european leader, okay, the second, but in the last two years, the only one, who shook hands with the russian leader after a full-scale invasion of russia, and last fall in pokin, now he visited moscow, and the polish prime minister wrote that he could not believe it, in estonia, finland they emphasized the...

unacceptability of such a situation in general. disturbing news about orban's visit to moscow. it is clear that he has no mandate to negotiate or discuss on behalf of the eu. his visit will show disregard. responsibilities of the eu presidency and undermines the interests of the european union. to summarize this visit, naive, disturbing and pointless. by the way , the french president, emmanuel macron, was once accused of naivety, as he later said himself, during the first six months of the full-scale invasion, he spent more than 100 hours on the phone with putin, the german chancellor called him, but then they were disappointed in this and generally physically with putin have not met they did not shake his hand. only orbán did it now, he was also excited because orbán's actual position on achieving peace in ukraine is generally different from the official position of the european union, because while orbán said that in order to achieve peace, it is necessary to stop giving weapons to ukraine, and here let me remind you that he also blocked the allocation

of funds, has been blocking the european peace fund for weapons to ukraine for a whole year, and in general he says that peace must begin with a cease -fire, while the european union, as is known, on the contrary, is trying to ensure a long-term the support of ukraine in the fight against... russian aggression, in particular with the help of weapons, and many leaders repeated that it was russia that started this war by attacking a sovereign state that should stop shooting. nato, he said that he was aware of such plans of orbán, here is his quote. of course, viktor orbán does not represent nato, at these meetings he represents his country and prime minister orbán, when i met with him a couple of weeks ago. so we also discussed his upcoming visit to kyiv, as you know, he recently also visited kyiv. what is important is that all allies, including hungary , agree that russia is the aggressor and that russia is responsible for the war, and that the territorial integrity and sovereignty of ukraine must be respected. well, jan

stoltenberg also added that he expects to hear more details about this meeting already at the nato summit, which will take place next week in washington, well, orban himself... explained before the visit that he is aware that he is not representing the eu at these negotiations , and said that he he simply explains the facts and asks questions, but already after the meeting he went to a press conference with statements that this is his peaceful mission for the six-month period of the presidency in the european union, and the first step was taken by the authorities. elena, thank you very much, you mentioned emmanuel macron's visit to moscow, let's remember that then putin received him at such a very, very big table, there were a lot of memes. just demonstrated the coldness of the visit, now orban is met, judging only from the table, met as such a real guest, a fellow friend. olena, but those were, but those were the post-war times, so that must also be taken into account, then putin still had this phobia of confrontation, this is also an important moment,

an important moment, but after that, after all, after macron, there was also the president of kazakhstan, and it seems that putin has already received other leaders even in the times of covid at such short, small tables. thank you. olena abramovych, a correspondent of radio liberty in brussels, told us the reaction of europe to viktor orban's visit to moscow? well, even though kyiv and the eu distance themselves from viktor orban and declare that they did not authorize him to act as a negotiator. he actively tries this role on himself. this is visible not only in his rhetoric, but also, for example, in this video that we are showing you now, orban published it after his trip to kyiv. a journey for peace, that's it... that's what it says in the credits of this video, in the video, as you can see, viktor orban appears as a kind of james bond of the dawn under the cover of night, he flies through ukraine to stop the war and this video is in the segment of ukrainian social networks ridiculed, in particular because of such, you know, excessive tension, musical accompaniment, editing, well, but

at least this is probably how viktor orban and his team see themselves, and orban himself , after his... visit to kyiv, actually denies the information that he is conducting negotiations between the countries, listen to his comment already on hungarian television. in brussels, it's called a rotating presidency, because everyone has this mandate for six months, and it doesn't give the authority to negotiate on someone's behalf, so what i'm doing can seem like a negotiation format, since we are sitting at tables and talking. things, but we don't negotiate, so i don't need a mandate because i don't represent anything, all i do is go to places where there is a war or a threat of war that threatens the european union and hungary or has negative consequences for them consequences and find out the facts, ask questions,

oleksiy honcharenko, people's deputy, european solidarity and representative of the permanent delegation of the parliament, joined our broadcast. assemblies of the council of europe. alex, my greetings. i congratulate you. why did viktor orban go to moscow? how do you, how would you answer this question? in the interests of themselves and putin. in his own interests, demonstrating his importance and bargaining, for example, in front of trump, with whom he actively communicates there, and also by demonstrating to russia, it means that he is a useful character, and efforts and resources should be spent on him, and for putin this is a super story , because it legitimizes putin, for more than two years. he did not have a single western leader in moscow, the last one was the chancellor of germany in april 22, and

he came with a complicated conversation about the war, here comes orban and look at how putin presents it, he says for the first time: the head of the eu council, that is, the head of the european union, has come to us , so he came to moscow to pay his respects, not putin to him somewhere, you see, orban came to us, everything is fine, i shook hands, it's complete. it is a shame, of course, when a person who is an international criminal against whom an arrest warrant has been issued, but in fact the isolation that putin plunged into at a certain time, let's be honest, he broke through it, and no, this is not the case not only in this visit of orbán, this is a broader story, but this visit of orbán he fixed this issue, i conclude, and it is very important, from now on russia will sell it not only to russians, but will sell it in the same global south, you see, europe is shaking . comes to me, communicates, everything is fine, i am a world leader, i am a pole of power, all this. what do you

think, to what extent this visit could be coordinated or negotiated with the ukrainian side, because after all, orban went to moscow after kyiv. i don't know if we can assume that he took some message there from volodymyr zelenskyi, not necessarily political, maybe humanitarian, exchange of prisoners, return of children, can ukraine in... in principle somehow use orban? i honestly doubt it because, well, first of all, there are already a number of mediators, qatar, we know, saudi arabia, who are talking one way or another on humanitarian issues, but it's very important for us, it's very important for us , it is that there is no trust between us and orbán, from the word at all, so i do not believe that orbán will hang. message, how about you? do you think, by the way, what kind of visit was orban, orban to kyiv, because he, he

was, he was not like all the previous visits of european leaders, look, orban did not go, for example, to bucha or to some other ukrainian the city or location that suffered from the russian attack, he did not go there to the stele of heroes, that is, his visit was a little different from all other european leaders, is it a coincidence or is it not a coincidence? no, this is absolutely not a coincidence. orban is putin's trollish shadow in the european union and nato. moreover, i will not say that i am against orban's visit to kyiv. we need to talk to hungary, we don't have anyone to help us, from this, unfortunately, to where. it is a member of the european union, it is a member of nato, it is a country that has the right to welcome. therefore, it is necessary to talk, it is better to have some dialogue than to have none. but there is absolutely no need to deceive yourself. orban is not on the side of ukraine. i 'll put it mildly. is it possible to directly say that he is on the battlefield. russia, well rather on the side of russia, actually he is on his side, as he understands it, but this is against our values, this

against democratic values, it is not in favor of ukraine, but we could not but accept it, the prime minister of hungary will come, we must say, he is still the head of the eu, we are a candidate for the eu, we have started negotiations, i think that by the way , unfortunately, under hungary, these negotiations will not move anywhere in particular, well, i'm speaking objectively. but anyway, but you see, even such a visit, where he seemed to demonstrate: here i am going, talking with ukraine, with zelensk everything. orban must have added to this an absolutely disgraceful visit to moscow. well, it's a shame, and it's not easy shame, this, this, this, this is a problem for us, and this is putin's success. and what is this problem for ukraine, you say, it is a problem for us, because it is, well, if such a breakthrough of isolation. diplomatic putin, this is a pass for putin, which putin will use on a full program in other countries, this is

a relaxation of diplomatic pressure on him, this is the return of a certain legitimacy, well, this is bad from all points of view. ugh, but did you see that european leaders distanced themselves from orbán and said: it is not necessary to mention the presidency of hungary in the eu and assume that this is his eu authorized this visit. it seemed or everyone around then understands that orban is doing it on his own initiative, well, orban is doing it on his own initiative, but he does it, he does it, he is absolutely and that there will be some consequences for him, well, that is, he shows, and what others can't, who will go next? well, unfortunately, i think there is a possibility that the prime minister of slovakia will go next or someone else, and if they all go to putin, then excuse me, but where is the isolation? thank you very much, oleksiy honcharenko,

people's deputy, european solidarity states that viktor orban's visit is legitimized. putin and partially brings him out of a certain international diplomatic isolation. thank you very much oleksiy. serhii grasimchuk, deputy executive director of the foreign policy council of ukrainian prism, director of the regional initiatives and neighborhood program, joins our broadcast. we continue to discuss viktor orban's visit to moscow. congratulations. i congratulate you. and from your point of view, why did orban go to moscow, and most importantly, in whose capacity did he go there went as a hungarian prime minister or as a european leader? in view of the fact that hungary presides over the eu. obviously, he went there as hungarian prime minister, because there were relevant statements from the european union, both from borel and from charles michel, who said that he had no mandate to represent the european union. so it is primarily about the hungarian initiative. and it is obvious that this hungarian initiative has a very significant and very negative impact on the already

impeccable reputation of viktor orbán in the european union. and it is obvious that if he took such a step, then the stakes are higher, and this high stake can hardly be simply his relations with the russian federation, or preferential conditions regarding the nuclear power plant in paksha, or some other preferences that hungary could receive from this visit. the stake is higher and it lies in the fact that orbán really really wants to play the role of a peacemaker, while this peacemaker he does not want to be... between ukraine and russia, especially taking into account that he himself is at the press conference following the meeting with putin admitted that the positions of the parties are too far apart. orbán wants to play the role of peacemaker in the big league, and he already shows such a desire by many indirect signs. he wants to play the role of a peacemaker in a game where big

actors will decide. viktor orban directly said that hungary did not say so. the state that can solve this issue, this issue will be decided by the big players, and these big players are primarily the united states, and viktor orbán bets and bets very high on the victory of donald trump in the elections, but the second major player may not be russia, but the people's republic of china, orbán's relations with sidzenpin are also not a secret for anyone, they are very fruitful, hungary was one of the three countries that he visited during his time. in the european tour, in addition to france and serbia, he did visit hungary. hungary has a number of joint projects, from culture to the economy, with the people's republic of china, and orbán, i assume, aims to demonstrate to china and the united states, in the person of donald trump, that he can

agree with everyone that he can build platforms, platforms for communication with everyone and theoretically. but if he succeeds in maintaining a dialogue on the ukrainian issue, then as a result he can claim his role as a mediator in other sensitive issues in the relations between donald trump and sydzenkin. so it was a publicity campaign, a visit to kyiv, a visit to moscow, orban demonstrated his capabilities and his flexibility to trump and sidzimpin. orban is betting on his presidency in the wrong way. in the european union, which obviously, from the first days it already seems very scandalous, as if after this presidency, which is after the elections in the united states, completely different prospects will open. the second moment is the demonstration of one's own strength by european law. viktor orbán is now fighting for the status of one of the leaders of the new pole of the european right.

in his opinion, europe should become this pole. the parliamentary group of the patriots of europe, the creation of which he announced, this group is an alternative to the already existing and well-known we have groups of european conservatives and reformists and european identity and democracy, one group is largely controlled by melony and kaczyński, the second group is controlled by marine le pen, so orban wants a third group, orban wants the outflow of politicians from those two groups to himself, orban wants to demonstrate. that the european right will decide, and orbán can also take advantage of the ukrainian situation by russia's war against ukraine in order to demonstrate that here is ... one of those right-wings who are in dialogue with russia, and with ukraine, and who, at the same time, want peace, and not yes and uni, and want to avoid speculation on the topic

of security and migration for europeans. and this advertising campaign with a visit to kyiv and moscow is also an advertising campaign for european rules, they say, unite around orman, and for him this is an additional bonus again in communication with trump, because the contacts between them are long-standing. even steve bannon, who was involved with donald trump's campaign for a long time, worked with orbán, and orbán wants that when trump has a question, who to call in europe, he was not thinking about fonden or kalas, but about viktor orbán. that is, orban wants to become, orban wants to become donald trump's number one contact in europe? yes, we do not. this is exactly the impression of donald trump's number one contact in europe and sijin pin's number one contact in europe. and here is the fact that the previous speaker oleksiy honcharenko said that with these actions orbán legitimizes

putin and sends signals to the whole world, which has not yet decided, or which takes a neutral position on the country, whether it is necessary to deal with putin, and after this visit the majority will decide, well, if a european country visits him and the leader of a european country shakes his hand. so why not, do you agree that things will go better for putin after this visit? the issue of precedent is also very important, i am not convinced that things will go better, but i assume that from the point of view of the preparation of the second peace summit by ukraine, from the point of view of the implementation of the peace formula in general, we may have problems, these problems were outlined earlier at the stage of preparation for of the first summit, when peter szijjártó, minister of foreign affairs in hungary. did not agree to take part in the summit, but at the same time said that they will take part in all events, no matter who organizes them, as long as they are aimed at peace,

including events to which ukraine may not be invited, and to the discussions that will take place about ukraine without ukraine, and the fact that a country that participated in the peace summit creates such a precedent, declares such readiness, may mean that other countries that participated at the peace summit, in particular from among those countries that... less demonstrate their commitment to the ukrainian approach, will be able to take advantage of this precedent and really say: at least one of the 100 countries and organizations that were represented allow themselves to go to russia and discuss the nuances russian plan, so why can't we do it, and the domino effect can really work here, when not necessarily europeans follow orbán, but the states of the so-called... small south will consider opportunities to listen to both sides, neglecting the principle of justice and neglecting to take into account the fact of who is the victim and who is

the aggressor in this war. but, but maybe the europeans too, if we are talking, for example, about the far-right in europe, who are getting, well, as a result of the last elections, more support than before, really, maybe now orban, you know, opens this door and after him there with new and new delegations appear, perhaps. not at the level of the leaders of the states, at the level of the opposition leaders there, the members of the european parliament who will go to putin, or do you rule it out? i don't rule it out but i guess, again, this is a long-term game, so i'm not talking about the right-wing going away tomorrow, i'm talking about the right-wing growing and the right-wing getting governments, we can't rule out that even more the austrian government, we cannot rule out such a situation in portugal, we cannot rule out such a situation. in france, and that's when they will be in force, then indeed, but it will take some time, that is, again, it is not about the period of orbán's presidency in the european union, it is about

that he uses the period of the presidency to create precedents and to create the most favorable conditions for himself as a politician who is now trying to master the right niche, although the history of his political life shows that he is quite flexible in this regard, so here he is makes plans for the future. on the prospect of working with donald trump, on the prospect of working with maga, the slogan of the chairmanship is a direct reference to this make your grade again, and orbán is playing his game anyway, although at the same time he plays along opponent of ukraine. do you think that kyiv knew about his visit to moscow, or are such visits usually agreed upon? well, the ministry of foreign affairs announced that the visit was not agreed upon in kyiv either... they didn't know and the position was accordingly not agreed either, and i am inclined to believe that we were not officially informed about such a visit,

as for the unofficial ones. well, actually orban could immediately be suspected of his certain cunning in his certain insidious plans, there are reasons for this, whether ukraine could somehow influence this, and the second question, to what extent for ukraine, this whole story creates such unpleasant prospects, given the fact that ukraine seeks both the punishment of putin and ... the prosecution of war criminals, which include the russian political elite, so what does this mean for ukraine? well, i will start with the first question, it is obvious that ukraine could not ban orbán from going to moscow, just as i could not ban him from meeting putin in china, just as i could not ban regular contacts between sierto and lavov, as for our prospects , then here... very much

a lot will depend not on orbán, but on how events will develop after the american elections, how the dialogue between the prc and the united states of america will develop, and whether orbán's bet will play out. orbán bet on big players, and orbán openly neglected european interests, the interests of the european commission, the interests of the council. if this bet on the americans and the chinese plays out, then obviously the situation for... the country will not be the best either, but there is also good news: in this not the best situation, we will not be themselves, and together with the european union, if the european union tries to defend its status as a geopolitical player, and this was the slogan with which fonden went to the first term, then it is obvious that the european union will try to make more efforts to support ukraine, and we will find ourselves they are on the same page, and in a situation

with such a player as the european union , it will be for us... only a plus, but how would you rate orban's visit to kyiv, according to the results, he made such a blockbuster, a real such a whole movies like him went to ukraine, how he conducted negotiations here, how he returned under the cover of night, but in ukraine itself we saw that he did not go anywhere in particular, did not visit anyone, other leaders, when they come, they either visit a hospital there, or in they will go to the fire, or to some destroyed house. they will be taken orbán was not taken anywhere, as a rule, such things are agreed upon, and it was a political position, or how should it be understood? well, first of all, i don't know who the producer is, who makes these films for orbán, and there was a very similar story with ciar's visit, then and there there was also a blockbuster about how he crosses the border there and enters the warlike transcarpathia, where he was probably in danger. and they show that films can

be shot in hungary, and not only there. i don't know, the kinokit company, for example, kirill tymoshenko, well, i won't specify what films hungary is known for, yes, but talking about why he didn't visit anything else and how he will benefit from it, it's obvious that there is a bet on the domestic consumer , to show a truly heroic hungarian prime minister, who after his the friend fitza was shot, he is not afraid to go to ukraine, where he too could be hit somehow... by something, and it seems to me that the main conclusion is that, once again , he is betting on demonstrating his equidistantness, not equal proximity, but equal distance, so as not to show special sympathy for either ukraine or russia, so that third parties continue to consider him a potential mediator, this is a very high

stake for orbán, perhaps the highest of all in... his entire life, this stake , which will allow him to enter history, but this a bet which, at the same time, if it loses, will deprive him, in general, hungary of special mention of him in its historical journal. but listen, he looks at recep tayyip erdogan like that and thinks, well, i'm a worse negotiator or something, well, he has the right to claim this position. the state of the turkish economy and the state of the hungarian economy are not comparable, and if he looked a little more at his own problems with social security, at his own problems that he cannot solve without access to european funds or borrowing from the chinese, then maybe the people of hungary once remembered him with more warm words than the current situation. and i have one last question, do i understand correctly that some big...