russia, and this is definitely unacceptable for the state leadership of ukraine and for the absolute majority of ukrainians. but i know that in russia they like such a word counterproductive, and indeed, if we do everything to make this war counterproductive for putin, then he will think, well, as i always remind this story in my time, ivan the terrible ended the livonian wars , because he realized that he would not be able to defeat stefan baturius, batory's troops were already near pskov, and actually they started negotiations with the mediation of the vatican, which ended this... because as they say, its continuation was counterproductive for the moscow kingdom at that time, they could not achieve their goals, well, there was another story later, but they could not stand at that time, you very well said that one trailer, one trailer, i would use a different term, it is necessary for us and our allies, our international partners to increase the price of war for russia, and on the battlefield with strikes on russian territory, the price of war with sanctions against russia, if putin feels high... son war and for

himself and for russia, then he will be forced to go to some real negotiations and take into account, as he likes to say, political realities, and this is exactly what needs to be done, to increase the price of war for russia. you said very correctly that it is obvious in your opinion that mr. dmytruk may never have become a politician, and i remember how a french journalist of channel france did on the eve of the invasion. one, in my opinion, is a film about france's presidency in the european union, but the war started and the film was called the president, somehow there was europe and war, there was something like that, but it was very interesting that when the gilagash, this journalist, was sitting in the car with emmanuel macron, he asked him something, and what do you think about it? emmanuel macron, like a true politician, said: "you will never know what i really think about this ." it is important that i say, well, this is politics, but here is macron. who said this phrase

then, he said that germany and the united states of america are countries that now specifically do not want to see ukraine in nato. i don't want to spread treason here again, but i would like you to comment, because it was it was also voiced today by jens stoltenberg that the problem of delaying ukraine's accession to nato is also the position of individual countries. why, i would like only a nuclear threat, but why? i understand, well, actually the answer is obvious, yes, and that's important. remark, an important clarification, we are not talking about a ban or a critical position regarding ukraine's accession to nato in general, no, neither the usa nor germany, even, are opposed to ukraine's accession to nato. they are now against giving invitations at the moment, in the conditions of the current war of ukraine to join nato. that's what their position is. and what is this, and what is it for, will it provoke some kind of escalation? yes, look, yes,

the logic, what logic, the logic is simple enough and it is known, it is not new, it was last year, it was also in 2022, but it manifested itself in a special way, let's say this, contrasting, even to a certain extent conflict, on the eve during the vilnius nato summit. now the situation is calmer, by the way, and the ukrainian leadership clearly understands that at the moment, as a result of biden's position. and germany, well, actually there are some others countries with more, shall we say, non-ukrainian, non-pro-ukrainian positions, there is hungary itself, for example, yes, so this, by the way, will be a problem for us at the finish line, not now, but when it comes to our actual accession to nato, but today the logic is that if ukraine is to be invited to nato, then it should not be directly in the middle. forged, but nato takes

responsibility for the war, not just for supporting ukraine against russia, but for participating in the war against russia, when finland and sweden were taken into nato, they were given previous guarantees even before joining nato. if such preliminary guarantees are given now, it will mean, well, indirect participation of nato in the war. but for today in the usa. and in general, nato has two attitudes towards the war between russia and ukraine. the first installation is to help ukraine so that we do not lose this war. so we started our conversation with the words that biden advocates for the victory of ukraine, and this is already progress, great progress from the point of view of biden's public rhetoric and his public position, but the real attitude is that help. so that we don't lose this war.

feel the difference. the second attitude is to help us in such a way as to avoid a direct military confrontation between nato and russia. because . if a war between nato and russia starts, most likely it will not be a conventional war, not an ordinary war, with ordinary means and resources, but a war that will quickly turn into a nuclear war, and a nuclear war - well , a great risk of self-destruction of humanity, that's the logic , and it determines the position of both the usa and germany. another thing is positive news therefore, i hope that there will be corresponding positive decisions on this. there is already information from informed sources, i refer to serhiy sydorenko, the editor of ukrainian pravda, a person who is both very competent and very informed, he is currently on the sidelines of this summit, he says that the final documents may contain a thesis about

the irreversibility of ukraine's accession to nato , and this thesis, well, supposedly one word, we do not know how it will be formulated, formed finally, but none the less. if it will be, then this is a signal for us, a signal of stimulus that you will be in nato, yes, the door in front of you is not the one that is not closed, yes, it is, let's say, half-open, and if some document on security cooperation between nato and ukraine is signed, what is expected, i don't know, an agreement it will be, like with the european union, or something else, yes, it will be, you know, like a certain betrothal between ukraine and nato, the legal registration of the marriage will be after. war, and now it is a confirmation that we will be in nato, and this is already a signal not only for us, a positive signal, but it is also a signal for putin that the topic of ukrainian membership in nato is not the subject of negotiations, is not the subject of negotiations on the end of the war, this is also very important,

because one of the main goals of putin, but everyone is talking about the territories, they say that putin wants a frozen war, he does not want a frozen war, he wants ukraine gave up nato, he wants us to... reduce our armed forces, our weapons as much as possible , these are his main goals, and the territories are, let's say, in second place, this is also definitely putin's program, but not on first of all, he has nothing to give us will, this too must be understood, all these plans of kolokoltsev are a fake, completely untrue, he will not give us anything, let alone give, yes, and he will demand to recognize them as russian. which is also unacceptable for us, but in the first place is the rejection of nato and reduction of the army, and that is why the formal fixation of the fact that we are more faithful, that our movement in nato is irreversible, this is already important, in addition,

specific issues should be considered at this summit decision, i would say about actual movement towards nato, actual integration into nato and actual help from the outside nato, which was not the case before, but was only on the part of individual nato countries. it is about the creation of a special military aid fund for ukraine, it is about the fact that the logistics of the supply of weapons and ammunition will be transferred under the operational control of nato, well, this is connected with trump to a certain extent, but nevertheless, and what is important, there is already a decision on the program operational compatibility of the armed forces of ukraine and our security structures with the relevant nato structures. this is very, very important from the actual point of view. integration of ukraine into nato. i believe that on today, this emphasis on actual integration is more important than simply, let's say, formalizing our legal relations. the fifth article on mutual defense, on collective defense is important for us, but it is important after

the war in order to prevent a new russian attack on ukraine, and i am a supporter of exactly this logic. we have literally two minutes, but i will still ask your opinion, because today it was voiced on the air by other guests, and is it really very important for ukraine to hold on and inflict maximum, the most painful blows to the russian army, the russians, by the way, at the same time also throw in older troops, they no longer make muscular assaults, they use older troops in order to achieve at least what they do not want to achieve, to hold out at least until the elections the us president, because informed people, respected experts say that putin still wants to talk to the us president. and it is important to understand who will become it after the november elections, whether it is true or not, if you can take a minute and a half, but i am interested to hear, i will briefly, yes, i will first i agree with the fact that now it is really about half a year, well even there it is actually less, there are actually only a few months left

before the presidential elections in the usa, but the new president, if it will be the new president of the usa, he will take office only in january of next year, it is very important to us about... demonstrating that we have stopped the enemy, and if we achieve certain tactical successes, it will also be very good, this is the first, and secondly, if there is a trump with a very high high... dignity , trump can force us to negotiations with russia. another thing is that there is information, his advice advisors: if putin will not agree to a simple cease-fire and will insist on some ultimatums, then the united states must increase its support for ukraine, and therefore we must now work, in particular with the trump team , in order to maintain the aid to ukraine from the united states, and at the same time, so that... this aid, well , under certain conditions, even increased, so yes,

putin is waiting for trump, but at the same time, i think there are no big illusions that it is trump who will play in favor of russia there, that there will be peace on russian terms, but not yet information that trump wants peace on russian terms, it would look like a defeat for the united states, and today president zelensky correctly emphasized that in fact... for putin, any us president is evil, yes, and he can tactically choose between them to support someone there, but there was already a situation when russia supported trump, and it ended with the fact that relations between the usa and russia worsened precisely during trump's presidency , once zherinovsky, who had already gone to a concert in kobzon, distributed in the duma champagne beer, then tomahawks launched by russian ships destroyed russian complexes. pppo and planes at airfields in syria, it was like that, and we got javelins just then, yes, so there is no need to be afraid

of trump in advance, we need to work to ensure that us support is maintained for ukraine. thank you so much for joining in, thank you for your comments. volodymyr fosenko, a political scientist, was in touch with us, we will continue these political topics, we will have a guest, literally right there, we already have the next guest. on which we have been waiting, and i am also very happy to introduce oleksiy gran, professor of political science at the kyiv-mohyla academy and scientific director of the center, gentlemen, mr. oleksiy, good evening, please tell me the name of rik kucheriv, it’s only the third hour of the ether for me, i’m already starting somewhere maybe to talk somewhere, and thank you for joining, actually we started a conversation with mr. volodymyr, we may not significantly change the vector . but i would also very much like to include here in this conversation the positions, possible positions and

the possible role and influence of the country of the global half a day to decide the course of this war and for these words of trump, not trump, joseph biden, to be said that you do not have, do not be deceived, do not deceive yourself, ukraine will win, the ukrainian army is capable of defeating russia in a field battle, so that these words really become a reality, here it is important to understand the role of global pi'. that's why i 'll start with the fact that, with your permission, i will now read very briefly the post of oleksandr kraev, who is actually an americanist and a specialist of the ukrainian prism company, on this issue, he says that joe biden tried to challenge the inclusion of the wording about the irreversibility of ukraine's accession to nato in the draft communique of the alliance summit in washington, according to the washington post with a message to sources. the main reason is that ukraine has not done enough to fight corruption. as a result, what can we get in this'. what do you think, and what should we get in order to

move forward with good support behind us and guns in our hands, and again, so that biden's words that we can win are not just a figure of speech , as they say, but there were something confirmed, please, well, if he said that corruption in ukraine is an obstacle to the movement towards nato, then... it is probably partly true, but it is not the main reason, we understand it perfectly, that is, we still have we understand that corruption is a problem, but we have done a lot to fight corruption, and there is corruption in nato countries, also, the main thing here, what we can operate on, is the fact that the ukrainian army and ukrainian society, it is fighting, it really fights for democracy and nato countries, and we die for that... for the nato countries to feel safe, this should be, this should be

the main thing, this is what should determine the position of the leadership, the leadership of the alliance countries, because there decisions are made by consensus, but when we say should determine, then we we know that if there are moral imperatives and even some strategic imperatives, they will not always win. the main role, because my colleague osenka rightly said that the united states and germany are the two countries that are currently opposing ukraine's membership in the nato and precisely because of the nuclear, because of the nuclear factor. you know, i think that, of course , the timing of this summit is not very favorable, not very favorable for ukraine, well , it was not possible to postpone it, because it is the date of 75 years, it could have been held there a little earlier,

a little later, but what is the peak the election campaign in the united states and... and under the conditions when both candidates go hand in hand, and biden does not want to take risky steps, he is actually afraid that he will then come under criticism from trump and his supporters, that biden can drag the united states into the war. therefore , the combination of these factors leads to the fact that the decision has not yet been made, well, we, however, really at... this summit did not expect that an invitation to nato membership would be recorded in some way, as it was in vilnius, there were really heated heated expectations and even more disappointments, now we realized that

this will not happen, so if it is recorded that the movement is... irreversible, that is, irreversible, well then it will be good, here i am i agree here so it makes sense that we will see what the final words of the communique will be, there were talks that a separate security agreement could be signed between nato and ukraine, then they disappeared somewhere, i haven't heard anything about it in recent days, but what can we do. .. to say, for sure, is that aid is increasing, aid is increasing, aid from various nato countries, the numbers are increasing, but, well, unfortunately, so far this has not brought a turning point in the course of the war. let's hope that the west also mobilizes, because obviously, when we

talk about our victory in this war, if... we do not receive the necessary military assistance from the west, if we do not receive assistance in the form of strengthening economic sanctions against russia and closing the loopholes in the existing sanctions, it is obvious that there will be a conflict, the war will drag on, we have it understand, so really, if, for example, trump wins, well, it is ambiguous, no one... knows what policy trump will pursue, and not only in ukraine, he is unpredictable, in relation to almost all the foundations of international, international politics , well then we don't know which one it will be situation, maybe he will really give ukraine the necessary help, and maybe not,

he will try to reconcile ukraine with russia in some way, so a lot... depends on these american elections, well, i say this in banalities, but it is simply in order to to explain again, that's why every step of biden, he's weighed here, he's limited by the opportunities and risks of the election campaign, i think you also asked about the global south, well, in particular, i would like you to maybe know what you would like to say about this about our... opportunities, where we are we will not finalize where there can be significant support for ukraine now, but also for you to explain these words, as far as i understand, of the newly elected, well, the new old prime minister of india, the indian republic , narendra modi, who told putin, no that there are deadly, but unpleasant words for putin, because we know that india buys both gas

and oil there, but the truth is that the russians cannot take rupees from india, they do not pay in other currencies, but... that's why he said about the fact that you will not solve anything with war, with weapons you won't solve anything by fighting, these words were important that it should be said, if we talk about the global south in general, what are the prospects in ukraine, now, you know, the nearest prospects, let's say this, well, look, if we talk about the position of india , then we should not simplify it, it is actually very complicated and contradictory, because, for example, prime minister modi, he did not go to the summit... yes, of the shanghai cooperation organization, that was a clear sign. instead, he left, well, it could be connected not only with russia, but also with china. with china's policy, because even though india and china and russia are members of the sco, even though they are members of brics, but in fact, the main

threat to india is china, yes, and therefore india's policy, it is so, they have their own term, well, we can translate it, plurilateralism, yes, well, that is, conventionally speaking, multipolarity, yes, but... but modi went to putin, modi said these words that war is nothing does not decide, but to interpret what should be for that, there should be a dialogue and negotiations, it can be interpreted in different ways, and they also wrote that, unfortunately, modi and putin hugged each other, yes, and i think this could have been avoided, and these gestures, that's why... india is interested in good relations with the west, because she understands that the main income, innovations, even now, and

military equipment, if before all this, all this was coming, well, we just saw these hugs, and this is literally already or after or after - to me , even after the attack on okhmadit in kyiv, that's why india's position is only. here it is ambiguous, in in general, if we talk about the global south, well, let's look at the results of the global peace summit, let's not dramatize, after all, 100 countries came, but 80 is only under 80 - this is also a lot, because of them, about 40 are western countries, and the rest - these are the countries of the global south, signed this communique, but these countries, which are from the global south, which are included. they kept to the top 20 with the exception of argentina, that is , brazil, mexico, and saudi arabia also stayed, and

egypt made it, that's why, unfortunately, here thailand held back, well, thailand is not a member of the g20, but nevertheless the country is quite influential, that is... the countries of the global south still take a rather cautious position now, right? well , with the exception of those who sent their representatives, and at a high level, such as, for example, the same president, the president of argentina, well, but, i would not overestimate our opportunities in the global south now, you know, i. .. used to be a little more optimistic, because at the beginning of the war, when there were resolutions against russian aggression in the un, 140 plus countries voted, that is

, it is obvious that most of the countries, precisely from the global south, they voted in support of these resolutions, yes, but voting in support of these resolutions, well, this does not mean taking any concrete steps, now we see , that this number... only 80 countries wrote this communique, which is also a lot, yes, so you can work here, but it's a shame that some countries refused to sign this, uh, communique, by the way, i forgot to mention about south africa, it is interesting that changes are possible in south africa gradual, why, because a coalition government was created there for the first time, a party was in power before. nelson mandela, the african national congress since 1994, and they were not limited by anything, and now they have gained a majority, and therefore they had to enter

into a coalition, where the main party is the democratic alliance, which simply takes a pro-ukrainian position, and their leader i came, it was a couple of years ago, i came to ukraine already during the war, that is, maybe there will be some changes in traffic jams. course about the war, but i would be here careful, that is, careful in the sense that again, when we talk about this global peace summit, the first one that took place, and this communique, it was focused around three issues that were supposed to be the lowest common denominator, yes, that is food. security, nuclear security, return, exchange of prisoners and return of children, that is, it would seem that a lot of countries should unite around this, but

you see, brazil. south africa, india, mexico, there is saudi arabia, they took and held, even if it seemed that there abstain. now we hear that the second peace summit will be held soon, i would also be careful here, it seems to me that the most important thing for us now is not to set any chronological framework, after all, to work for the result, and... it will be so, first of all, from the countries measures that provide us with arms and weapons and that introduce economic sanctions, although some countries of the global south they joined those sanctions, by the way, it is interesting that singapore came to the global peace summit, but how next, how far are we going to move even with these three of three points in the communique, which have already been signed.

how will we move forward, if we look at another provision of zelenskyi's formula, that is, here i think, in fact , diplomats and experts have a lot of questions, and uh, i wouldn't jump ahead here, mr. oleksiy, i'll just add an opinion here of our viewers, people are watching us, the broadcast continues on youtube, whoever has the light, now they are writing, and the contributor and the viewer are us. who calls himself sulfur, and everyone is watching the events, who will be stronger, so the zsu should beat, well, in principle, i can somewhere agree with the fact that indeed, who should be stronger, but the strength of the spirit is one thing, it is, of course, strength in modern war - it is resources, weapons, opportunities, timely rotation, reinforcements, as president zelenskyi said recently, we have 14 newly formed brigades, this is up to 70, 70-90 thousand military personnel, but there is no...

we have weapons for them, this is a reserve, for example, that is, what we can do, we have 230 billion ukrainian armed forces, which the ministry of defense does not can buy, because we have obvious and visible problems with budget financing, this is also clear and obvious, but it is good, well, at least the news was announced on the sidelines of the summit, which is ongoing in washington, european truth writes with a message on ntv, not on russian ntv, on n tv it says that in common with... american, fortunately not russian, tomahawks , cruise missiles, will be deployed in germany in order to strengthen the deterrence and protection of its nato partners, well, that is, germany, after all, it is already closer than, the mediterranean waters of the mediterranean sea, where the sixth fleet of the united states is based, there are also tomahawks there, but again this is the moment, well, a security bond will be signed an agreement with romania, signed with luxembourg, signed there with portugal, well, in particular

, there will be a signature... a security agreement with romania, president iohannis said, klaus iohannis, president of romania, these agreements are also important, their signings, but again, here i would also like to ask us literally there for 5 minutes, maybe a little less, but i would like to ask, because i read among my friends, contributors on facebook, people are strong, smart, dedicated, well, they say that it is difficult, difficult hold your own in this one. stories realizing that you don't see any prospect right now, you just have to work every day, seeing this prospect, that's exactly what valery pekar writes, say, you have to do a certain job every day, the attitude of society is that you have information, an assessment, maybe you are planning certain measurements, moods of society according to how people are ready to go through this difficult, dark time, but it must be passed, well, look, i was just watching the last, let's say, what was official.

was published, the survey was officially published, one of the last surveys of kmis, it's may 26 and the first day of june 1st, so it's more than a month ago, but if we're talking about the war, then 58% of ukrainians agree that the ukrainian government should not make compromises. in the negotiations, that ukraine will continue the struggle as long as necessary. 30% do not agree with this statement, so here we see that there has indeed been a drop in those who say that we should not make compromises, and a slight increase in the share of those who in...