for ukrainians, in general, austria accepted a total of 20,000 ukrainian refugees, well, in poland, you can say that there were millions, of course not all of them stayed in poland, but in the early days , this, well, this is a large common movement of the polish people in support of the ukrainian, and this cannot be forgotten and... does not arise without a trace, this experience of a personal, personal relationship with these people, he, he will remain. ms. olya, i have just one more question, i don't know, we don't have much time left, but i think that it is very, it is important, well, we know that in fact the second world war and the wartime of the second world war, it was a time of ethnic cleansing, he wrote about it very well afterwards. war in his

monograph by tony jat, and it is, well, the truth that europe was much more, ethnically mixed, well, for example, even the ethnic composition of poland after the years of 1945, 1946, there, it changed very much , than what was in the 30s, this is a fact, and this applies to many very nations, and this is what we accept, that what happened in volyn, it was ethnic cleaning where a lot of poles really died, and to a lesser extent ukrainians, and it was ethnic cleansing, it is true, and i think we are ready to admit it and ask for forgiveness for it, but was it genocide, or is it a good wording, and the main fireplace stumbling block, it seems to me, remains, it is a demand from poland, from the poles, in principle understood by us, to somehow give up.

leadership of the ukrainian insurgent army, and now during this war, we, i remember your conversation, our conversation with you about 10 years ago in kyiv on the radio, when you said that you you can't honor bandera because he was a murderer and so he participated in the assassination, well no, don't, don't, don't attribute to me that what i couldn't say because bandera... didn't participation in this ethnic cleansing, he was a murderer in the sense that earlier, earlier in the 30s, he organized, the assassination attempt on piratsky, uh, but, but in general, the responsibility, the criminal responsibility for this particular crime, yes, do we can we still here, can the poles understand that... for us, the ukrainian

insurgent army and this movement are partisan in first of all, he, well, we cannot refuse from, because this is a very important part now, which is accepted by the east and west of ukraine, because it is a symbol of resistance, first of all, to imperial russia, and it is definitely not a symbol of the war there with the poles, i think it is impossible, but it is possible... i am already a pessimist, ah, to this day, to this day, such a comparison of the regional army and the ukrainian insurgent army causes categorical rejection, that is, how can you compare one with the other, actually, actually, of course, uh, all comparisons possible, but they must be done very, very carefully. and on the basis of facts, not myths, and

just one simple remark, i hope that it is also important, er, or the regional army, er, or the people's army, that's what it was called, and one way or another, it is armies that were created in the country that was captured in 1939, on the one hand, with... with stalin's russia, on the other hand, divided by hitler's germany, but - it was, that, the poles had their own state, respectively there was a kind of heredity of institutions, ukrainians did not have their own state in 1939, not even on the territory of western ukraine, not on the territory of ukraine, in fact, there is another, larger part, and accordingly, can we in principle talk about genocide? referring to the fact that there could have been

decisions of the oupa or any other, since these were all structures in fact, they were not state decisions, they were not state decisions, they were in the extreme. in this case, these were the decisions of some partisan units, i think that this is not a very correct formulation of the question, that is, i am not ready to discuss whether it was a genocide or not, because this issue is politicized, we do not have an answer to the main questions, i.e. the question... what did this conflict look like, starting in 1939 and ending in the 1940s, that is, even in 1947 and later, that is

, we are artificially narrowing, narrowing this time period, and and do not see broader picture, i am not ready to use it in any of my journalistic texts or in scientific concepts of genocide, i believe that it does not correspond to reality, my polish colleagues have the opposite opinion, i do not agree with them, but we can argue. .. but i don't think it is exactly what is worth spending time on, what is worth spending time on, is good deeds and support for today's ukrainian state, and not, and and and and its struggle, and not on

what happened earlier, what happened should have been illuminated, truthfully illuminated before. and not be the subject of manipulation, thank you, thank you, mrs. olya, i think that ukrainians will remember this support and be grateful for it, olya hnatiuk, hnatiuk, writer, polish researcher, popularizer of ukrainian literature in the world and professor of kyiv-mohyla university academy, was with us, dear friends, let 's take a break, come back and continue, attention, total sale, garden trimmers, unpack tv with a discount of only 799 uah, only 799 for a reliable tool, high power, ease of use, very profitable, minimum effort, maximum result, order in time while the video is being broadcast, three reforces are light and very powerful, mow

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is a thorough analysis of the main events. reports, comments of leading specialists and experts. analytics from the major of the armed forces. how to make sense of disturbing news and distinguish truth from hostile propaganda. program real front with taras berezovets every saturday at 21:30 on spresso. verdict with serhiy rudenko is now in a new two-hour format. even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, as well as feedback, you can express your opinion on the bad day by phone survey, turn on and turn on, verdict with serhiy rudenko, from tuesday to friday from 20 to 22. dear friends, we are coming back to air, our guests are andriy yarmolenko, artist, laureate of the shevchenko prize,

co-founder of communities army of ukraine, and dmytro vasylenko, public activist, volunteer, chairman and co-founder of the same communities army of ukraine. we have already had an interesting dialogue here, actually on the topic of nato and on the topic that nato has join ukraine, what is ultimately written on t-shirts, and such actions took place on the eve of the summit. not only in the united states of america, but also in europe. did they hear you? well, in more detail, dmytro, let them tell what. yes, thank you for the introduction, thank you for the invitation. yes, our campaign was called nato join ukrain . the first rally within the framework of this campaign took place in the city of brussels, near the headquarters of nato. we conducted this company with various partners. in brussels it was promote ukraine, in ukraine it was icov, international center for ukrainian

victory, the nafo community, ukrainian freedom news, headed by a former american journalist. rallies were also held in munich, augsburg, hamburg, malaga - spain, in paris, in austin, the usa, in other cities, and ukrainian activists abroad came out with a demand: nato to keep calm and join ukraine, as it is written on our t-shirts, why yes, why we chose this particular slogan, eh , well, in fact, ukraine already de facto fulfills the fundamental mission for which nato was founded in 1949, i.e. deterring potential or already ongoing aggression from... from the block of authoritarian totalitarian countries, which is now

represented by russia, in order to protect european freedom, democracy, of european values, this is, firstly, secondly, de facto, again, ukraine has proven that it is currently the strongest army on the european continent, well, on the battlefield , we prove it regularly and constantly. thirdly, ukraine has... demonstrated that it can very quickly adapt all the existing nato standards, and moreover, propose its own new solutions, new tactics, and here we can mention the war of drones, and in the last, last moment, but no less important, er, since the moment of the announcement independence of ukraine, we started the path to nato, we declared. this goal was made strategic in the 19th year, when

this norm was already included in the constitution, and in fact, let's be honest, there is no other country in europe that has already shed so much blood defending the north atlantic. listen, what i want to say is that i am subscribed to andriy yarmolenko, of course on facebook, in particular, and... the shevchenko laureate is actually not, not that he is not rowing, how should i say it, calmly works in such a poster style and responds to all important events in the world, v ukraine. no, he does not disdain even some caricatures, if there is a need, this is it, that is, you draw a lot, in fact, to describe some chronicles of what is happening, which is more recent , for example, the reaction to what happened with the attack on okhmadit, if we can show

that about ahmedit's attack, i would say that it was also within the framework. approximately the same company, because we were preparing this company, it is not it, it is not it, it is not it, it is putin a cockroach, yes, but despite all this, russia has hit exactly where it hurts, in our children, they are destroying our future, and they did it right before the nato summit, well, it's like a gopnik, we won't get anything for it, and they've shown in this way, here's this picture, and they 're showing in this way that... they will go unpunished, if we talk about our victory, the most important victory within the framework of this action, remember by 2022 that people in european countries, in european cities, come out with the demand of ukrainians, and not

only ukrainians join them, with the demand that ukraine be accepted into nato. this did not happen, uh, now we are... trying to prove that ukraine and nato are, well it is absolutely natural, and it should be us to come to terms with it, somewhere not even to come to terms with it, so that the europeans, the residents of europe, the residents of america, those countries that are part of nato, accept it, and that they understand that the place of ukraine is exactly that, there , and that's why it's the most important thing for me, that's why i actually joined the community army of uk, and i didn't even join, as a co-founder, because you know, sometimes cry, and sometimes public organizations, sometimes civil society does much more than the state does , it's not scary, i said, i am i was a little scared, because the horizontal connections, which dmytro and i worked on to establish horizontal connections and

unite them, are more than how many countries, in fact, more than 40. more than 40 countries, so that public organizations, public organizations, small groups of pro-ukrainian people who joined us and so that we could sound with one such voice and be heard, in the end, and this is very important for me as an artist, here is this picture, we need weapons, not toys, it went viral on ukrainian social networks, but whether do you have any feedback on social media? countries that seem to support us, well, that is, support us, and, but, but still somehow distance themselves from our war, or because, because i want to say that, in this third year of a full-scale invasion, the world is starting, as if russia is beginning to accustom the world to the fact that here is

ukraine, there is a war going on in it, and rockets are falling there, and sometimes these rockets kill a large number of children, and sometimes even now they have taken and fallen. on okhmadyt, with kakhovskaya gs , it was also the case that it was blown up, well it was flooded there were people, well, people died, it happened, it also happened during the summer, in the summer everyone rests, and somehow you don’t want to think about the bad, let’s talk about this picture so that i don’t brag about myself, dmytro will tell how he scattered and the rallies with it thanks to andrii for the picture where it took place, well, actually, it's the graphics that andrii creates. a piece of art, as they say in english, that is , art, it can also be a weapon in our hands, a weapon in the hands of ukrainians, leaders of ukrainian communities abroad, activists there, and as for the answer to your question, yes, thanks to social activists

abroad, who print out these graphics, make them into posters, go out on the streets of cities. it becomes recognizable, but most importantly, in this way we can convey our message, our narrative, which is necessary for ukraine, necessary for the protection of our national interests, so that the pro-country does not forget, international victory, international aid is strengthened, and in the end we have hope, this will contribute to the achievement of victory in the war against russia, and you said, by the way , about... greta thurnberg came out in stockholm, they showed her this graphic, and she took it in her hands, she liked it, there was a certain resonance in her mind, er, she

took a picture, and in fact, this was the first time that she declared her position regarding support for ukraine in this way, that is, before she had no words she didn't talk about ukraine, after that she was invited to kyiv, she was in the president's office, there too... i want to say a little here, it's just that for a very long time everyone has been asking, where is greta tumberg, and where is greta tumberg, we sat down, said, well if people want to see greta tumberg, we have to give people greta tumberg knew where the actions were taking place, where she was taking people, one of our activists printed a poster, approached greta tumberg and said: well , how do you feel about this, she says, it is terrible, she was just told, then take a picture with the poster and we will write about it by mail what are you condemning, sometimes you have to resort to encouraging people and not thinking that she will sit like this, damn it, but what is there in ukraine, well

, let's be honest with her and let's be realistic, ukraine is possible for her and it doesn't burn and doesn't hurt, maybe she thinks about something else entirely, but to shift the focus and show that there is a war in ukraine now, people are dying in ukraine, this is our, our such a sacred duty, this is our job after all. this work is, you know, i just wanted to say, you're talking about these horizontal connections, i thought how important it is when there are people who can set them up, and we need these channels, they work, because we have there is a problem that in our country a deputy cannot go to a conference because he was invited somewhere, for example, abroad, and some deputy is sent there because he is from the ruling coalition and you, and you know your deputy and you understand that he will say such things there that it will have the opposite effect. he will come to intelligent people there, and some such a duduk comes to them, and starts to tell something like that, that people think, my god, and this is what they want in nato, realistically, maybe it is a little too early,

you still have the wrong deputies level, i mean that these are horizontal connections, they need channels, can you safely, for example, go abroad and establish this, or is there no pressure from the state that wants to control, as in propaganda is working for us here, and we are a little bit too. chki read, well, it means that we will not defeat the autocracy if we work like this, well, we do not feel pressure, and you are absolutely right that horizontal connections, they are very important, and this is probably the difference of ukrainian society from russian, we have developed horizontal, horizontal connections, in the rush, it is vertical, rigid hierarchy, coercion, control and so on, what we are trying to do. we are trying to unite ukrainians abroad, leaders of ukrainian communities abroad with the goal of for them to sound with one voice, uh,

act as a united front, because in fact, in our opinion, this is a phenomenon that happened after the full-scale invasion of russia, when thousands of rallies began to spontaneously arise abroad, but it was scattered a little, and here we made an attempt and in our opinion... andriyem's opinion is successful enough to still try to unite ukrainians. and we thank you for that, thank you very much for coming to visit us. but we have a gift for you, it will take us 5 seconds, it is t-shirts with our graphics. thank you very much to you and yours. thank you for the invitation. keep calm and carry on and also join ukraine. all, thank you very much for.

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