until you end the war, you will not be a member of nato. well, you can formulate it, as president biden formulated, that the condition for ukraine's accession to nato is ukraine's victory over russia, but again, let's not forget that the idea of ​​ukraine's victory over russia is also perceived differently in ukraine and in the west. for us, this is the indisputable restoration of territorial integrity by military means, in the west - it is the preservation of ukrainian statehood under the conditions of the creation of political conditions for the restoration of the territory in the future. and now the most important question is not this, whether ukraine can join nato if its territorial integrity is not restored in the coming years or decades. what should such a procedure look like? i have repeatedly said that such a procedure can look very simple, and i still adhere to it, that ukraine in the event of the end of hostilities. on our territory

they may end with some kind of truce and some kind of cease-fire agreement, just in case of exhaustion of the parties, it's just that we haven't reached that point yet, but again this nervousness of vladimir putin indicates that this point is already appearing somewhere, otherwise he would not have talked about all this, we just need to end the war, cease fire without obligations of neutral status or not joining nato. a ceasefire must be a ceasefire. simply, when one party does not guarantee anything to the other, russia does not guarantee us that it will return our territory, we do not guarantee russia that we will not fight from our territory further and that we will not be members of nato, this is the model of termination vagnyu, then it depends on nato. i saw such a procedure that after that the allies gather and invite this country, whenever it happens, we know that this war can end in 10 years, i don't know when. this is a long process, and maybe this year,

it is, again, a question of exhaustion of the parties, the allies are gathering and inviting us to nato, just as they have now made a unanimous decision about the inevitability of the net, so they are unanimously announcing that they are inviting us, further, as you know, the ratification procedure is underway of this agreement on our accession to the national parliament. at this stage, there may be a pause , let's say the parliament of hungary, conditionally speaking, i will say, you know, we will ratify this agreement only after the political relations between ukraine and russia are normalized, we do not need a war in europe here, we support the accession of ukraine to nato, as soon as ukraine normalizes its political relations with the russian federation, we will immediately raise this issue for ratification in the hungarian parliament, and it may be in another 10 years, which may be these 10 years, these 10 years ukraine can get guarantees. security from the usa,

great britain, let's say, such as sweden received, intermediate security guarantees, but security guarantees that say that the united states, there and great britain, are ready to deploy a nuclear umbrella over us, are ready to be participants in some actions, if we will be attacked again, and the usual thing in these guarantees will be a clear clause that we do not initiate any forceful actions to return our territories without... consultations with the guarantor countries, this may also be there. now the question arises, what russia? russia will most likely sign a political agreement with us in a fairly short time, because it will know for sure that it cannot fight with us, that a war with us is a war with the west, and thus the hungarian parliament, or the slovak or to someone else, it will be possible to ratify the agreement on our country not 10 years after the invitation, but after two or three, this is basically real. well, this is

an optimistic option, right? well, this is optimistic, but there may be some obstacles at this first stage, for example, donald trump may come to power, and we understand very well that his position is unlikely to see ukraine in nato, this issue can be resolved when trump's term of office is already over, what do you want trump? trump will be in office for four years, you and i have already reached one and a half. the years of this war have passed, maybe seven more will pass, i apologize, we may at the moment when all this will be resolved, donald trump may already die, not because someone will kill him, of course, but because he is simply in such age, so no, i 'm just calm about these prospects, i'm talking about prospects, again, if you and i we take it as an axiom that the russian-ukrainian war is an absolutely natural state of existence of ukraine and russia in the 20-30s of the 21st century, then we are talking about a perspective, a perspective, conventionally speaking, of 10-20 years. said that in 10

years ukraine should become a member of nato, it may happen that these 10 years should include the end of the war, invitations. to nato and ratification by parliaments, that is a period of 10 years for this territory, which at the time of this decision will be controlled by the legitimate ukrainian government, no one knows the size of this territory, because this war can be different, war is a wave thing, today there, tomorrow here, on the other hand, we see that this war, in principle, since 2022 has not allowed real changes in the front line, well we can talk, of course nodding our heads. and say that we did not succeed in many things, but i would like to know what the russians succeeded in, i would like to remind you that according to their plans they should have been in the territory of the entire donetsk region a long time ago, long ago in the 22nd year, now is already ending, half of the 24th has passed,

sooner or later we will have to turn to realism, what is happening now is not realism, on the other hand, it can also be said that putin may believe that this war can be... won by attrition, not by occupation, well, because in the first world war, germany lost the war without occupying its territory, there was not a single foreign soldier there, but it would have been the same if there was no west behind us, well, this must also be realized, so it is a complex process, but it is a long-term, long-term one, so so complicated i would say so really good that you clarified that because in fact, for some reason, many believed that the citizens of... that joining nato is a very close prospect or a medium -term prospect, we must understand that joining nato is not a matter of tomorrow or next year , that's why we need to move towards it, we need to talk about it and our country needs to fight for it,

because for our country nato is essentially a guarantee, the main guarantee of our security and our life with you, where. a few minutes pause, and we will return to the live broadcast of saturday political club, do not switch. vasyl zima's big broadcast. my name is vasyl zima, this is a big broadcast on the espresso tv channel, two hours of air time, two hours of your time, me and my colleagues, we will talk about the most important thing, two hours to learn about the war, about the military, front, component, serhii zgurets, and what the world lives on. yuriy fizar is already with me, and it's time to talk about what happened outside of ukraine. yury, good evening. two hours to catch up on economic news, time to talk about wartime money. alexander sulks in the hood with me, and sports news. i invite yevhen pastukhov to the conversation. two hours in the company of your favorite presenters. cultural news, alena chechenina, our art watcher, is ready to tell, good evening. presenters who have become like relatives to many.

vital kadydenko is already next to me, ready to talk about the weather for this weekend, as well as the distinguished guests of the studio. mustafa dzhemilov, the leader of the crimean tatar people, is in touch with us, mr. mustafa, i congratulate you. good day. events of the day. in two hours, vasyl zima's big broadcast, a project for smart people those who care espresso in the evening. direct ether, saturday politclub. we return after a short break and continue our conversation with vitaly portnikov. well, let's now talk about golubamir and orban. viktor orban visited after. zelensky and putin to beijing, he spoke with xi jinping, later this week, in fact , after the nato summit, orban came to see trump, after which they talked, took pictures, and of course,

they talked about something, we will talk about it now and to communicate with mr. vitaly, here are the further travels of orban, last week we talked about the fact that orban... traveled to zelenskyi, then to putin, we discussed it, but as we can see, in fact, these travels, they continued as you estimate that, what purpose, if last week, we, more precisely, last week, we talked with you about the fact that this is most likely a personal initiative of orbán, he is scoring political points in this way, here we see.. . that these trips, they multiply exponentially, a trip to beijing, a trip to to washington, more precisely to trump, not to washington, how do you evaluate the last two trips of orbán, you know, to me, in general, all these trips are beginning to seem like part of

a much broader plan, that is, on the one hand, i would say on the other hand, they are part of this plan of putin despite ukraine's push for peace. however, this is the only time when the interests of orban and putin coincide, and on the other hand, they are part of the chinese europe project, because they are the most important. part of this tour is a trip to sydzenpin, and by the way, orban himself said that the first question he asked putin was how do you feel about the chinese peace initiative, i think he also asked zelensky about it, now it is very important for orbán to form a whole, i would say, brigade of people in europe, who can be lobbyists for chinese, and then russian, political interests, and who can slow down all the efforts of the west. to force china to abandon its support for aggressive regimes, by the way, let me remind you that

after the nato summit, where there was an absolutely unprecedented statement specifically in relation to china, hungarian foreign minister peter czijarto said he would not allow nato to turn into an anti-china organization. this week there was a much more important event, more concrete than all these orbán trips, because they basically ended in nothing. but a third significant faction of the european parliament appeared and when orban stopped forming it and began to shape it, many believed that it was a completely naive idea out of helplessness, well, let's remember, so that our viewers realize this, how events developed, viktor orban's party, fidesz was excluded from the group of european conservatives, the european people's party in the previous session of the european parliament, by the way, in this session of the european parliament , the party of tis peter madzir, the leader of the hungarian

opposition, who was in kyiv these days, joined the european people's party. she occupied this niche in hungary, a respectable, conservative party, and the body shifted strongly to the right. as he moved far to the right, many believed he would be forced to negotiate with far-right parties. and a leader this group is undeniably italian prime minister george meleni, with whom orbán has been negotiating for several months in a row to have mps from his party join the group in the european parliament led by representatives of the brothers of italy party, but meloni told orbán that please viktor, then you should demonstrate that you support ukraine and do not support russian aggression, because this unites all of us who have gathered in this faction, and everyone. believed that orban's visit to kyiv, remember when they only started talking about him, was his sign of respect for

maloney, so that i could at least show in this way that he is ready to fulfill this condition, and orbán announced the day before his visit to kyiv that he was creating his own faction in the european parliament, and again, everyone reacted to this absolutely, i would say, without enthusiasm and believed that it would be a small faction that no one was interested in, and that it would not include any serious far-right parties, as a result , it included parties from the group previously led by the french national association led by marine le pen, this party itself entered to orbán's group, bardela herself, who was to become the prime minister of france, if ultrapraya won, he became the leader of this group, and the parties entered as from the group. lepen is a former member of the meleni group. i just read today

the transcript of the telephone conversation between meleni and the leader of the vox abascali party, who is there, who said to meleni, something very strange, you must not understand, we have to join this group because we are fighting for voters with the conservative people's party of spain , and maloney tells him: then why go there, what, what? my membership in my party, er, my faction, prevents you from fighting them for voters, because we have a much stricter platform on migration, budget policy and everything else, and he never explained it to her, and i can explain that she didn't want to, he didn't want to tell her, their attitude is what separates them to china and russia, that is, it is actually a formation. such a chinese axis on the territory of the european union, of course, it

can be said so, i would say so, maybe even chinese to a certain extent, russian here, well, but chinese in the first place, of course, and leading far-right parties appear there too of all the countries that do not want to be participants in this story, you understand, which is organized by meleni, that is, discovered. that by and large, by and large we see such a political trend, it is very dangerous when a third group is created in the european parliament. the meleni group is only the fourth, and this group actually demonstrates that it is capable of absolutely calmly fighting for the influence of the european parliament, this is a very important moment, in fact, in this whole story, this is

a situation that, one way or another, should demonstrate that orbán.. . performs this such, i would say, are tasks for those who would like to see a completely different, completely different europe, completely different situation in the north atlantic alliance, and we can predict that this group of orbán will expand even more, that is, if they can reach it. .. it is possible, at least in the near future, to join some more political forces, factions in the european parliament so that, for example, the number of members in this group there exceeds 100 people, i think that it can be, for example, what i am leading to , for example, the same alternative for germany, i understand that it

is quite tainted even for this group, but we understand that there is no limit. as they say, the impossible, that is, today in the world, in the world politics, we observe that there is no limit to the impossible, what seemed impossible two weeks ago, today became possible, what we did not even think would happen, it is already happening today, it is happening here on the territory of modern europe, and that is why i am leading to this, that, for example, the same alternative for germany, which is quite significant the faction there is quite a few people, if it joins orbán's group, and conditionally speaking, this is also possible, then in this case there will be even more of them and they will become even more influential. again, there is the same group of melons, it counts, if i'm not mistaken, so now there are 60 or so men, and they will try to split it, but i

also lead to this, that they will try to split it, because de facto now it turns out that there are two... groups of the right in the european parliament, and it's not just in the european parliament, it's two groups on the right that cooperated, united, generally in the european union, that is, these are parties, these are forces, these are people who will coordinate their efforts on foreign policy, on internal policy, on some of their messages regarding china. and with regard to russia in the european union, so, of course, i am leading to the fact that it is quite likely that the alternative for germany, and there will be a certain inclination to try to incline the forces that are in the maloney group, so that they join

the orbán group , and then orbán's group would not be easy powerful, she... will occupy one of the leading places, well, not only, not only, orban wanted the polish law and justice party led by yaroslav to join this group, they refused, precisely because they do not they want to support russia, yeah, but he wanted the party of robert fitso, the prime minister of slovakia to join there, they didn't want to either, because they're not a strange left party, they're basically, well, we 're laughing, but they ideologically left party. not social democrats, well, just such, oh, but today the social democrats, tomorrow the right, tomorrow the right, you never know what to expect from these people, so in this regard it is an absolutely obvious situation when we understand what is happening with how all these

forces are formed, and here i am we talked with you about orbán, about his tour, this tour is part of this story, that he shows those who unite there that it is possible to be in nato, it is possible to be in the european union, it is possible to be friends with donald trump , at the same time with xi jinping, and at the same time with vladimir putin to meet and go to kyiv, no one, you know, will stop orban, whose time has come, here he is, what he is showing, this is basically the same model. which they would all like to implement so that they can focus on trump, so that they can take money from china, so that they don't have anything for it, so that they can somehow understand ... moscow and so that they don't have anything for it , this kind of political multipolarity is leaving, by the way, the multipolar world about what vladimir putin says is what they say, and by the way,

they would like to come to kyiv and to show that they support the strong ukrainian people, you see how their positions have all changed, marine le pen went there to orban, but she says that she supports ukraine, like george meleni, almost, ugh, ugh, only with the difference is that george meleni does not go to moscow, and... has never been there, unlike marine le pen and matteo salvini, who also joined the orman group, the leader of the league party, which is the most important partner in the italian government coalition , so you think that in fact the person who is the vice-prime minister in of giorgi meleni's coalition in italy, along with this creates an alternative group together with viktor orbán, the purpose of which is to reduce the influence of meloni herself, which is a challenge to the faculty. in fact , georgia maloney and a challenge to italian politicians, including this, you can, well , listen to this, italy salvini can think that

in this way he will win the parliamentary elections and become prime minister himself , he does not have a task to support george meleri, he has a task to destroy it, as it always happens in italian politics, so there is always such a thing question, but for example, the conversation between orbán and trump, what is here... we can conclude from this that trump, orbán very much expects trump to become president, it is clear, he says it directly, he dreams about it, in fact, it is clear that this his political gain will also be, what topics could be discussed there, well, i think that everything could be discussed there, the only thing is, i don't really understand how orbanska tells trump, and do you like the chinese proposal? that is, to what extent he managed to hide from trump what he drives with chinese proposal for the world, but he could generally discuss with trump how to end the russian-ukrainian war,

he could share with trump his observations about the negotiations with putin and zelensky, it could be, by and large, he could talk with him about this faction, because this faction is also the trumpist faction, these are the people who will support trump, not only them, because there will be more. but they may want to be the most important supporters of trump in europe, this is also an absolutely obvious point, about which must be said, so in this situation, of course, it can be assumed that orbán is not playing his part, well, in principle, he does not hide it, he also spoke at the beginning of this tour, you understand that i cannot be a mediator , and by the way, everything that says, says... about viktor orban, he cannot be a mediator, because he does not have such an influential country to be a mediator between russia and ukraine in such a war. but he also says exactly: i cannot be

an intermediary, i do not have any economic resources resources, i don’t have that, i don’t have that, i don’t have anything, well, i don’t have any, but he has the potential to travel and interview those who have potential, and indeed he has an advantage here to a certain extent, because who can you still afford this? well, who can go to kyiv, moscow, beijing, washington and visit maralag at the same time? no one, but on the other hand, the content of this, he drove, what next? putin did not even begin to hide how he feels about all this when he organized this attack on a hospital in kyiv, and by the way, we have remember that he also organized the premier on the day he was in moscow at renramod. by the way, this is what i wanted to ask a question about, modi’s visit to putin, in fact, it is clear that putin still chose, here, as they say,

a double bottom, on the one hand, putin chose this date before the nato summit, on the other parties, putin actually chose this date for this attack when the newly-elected prime minister of india, the head of one of the largest, came to visit him. the head of the country with the largest population in the world and, in fact, what putin wanted to legitimize himself, especially on this day in the eyes of the world, and to some extent he managed to do it, modi did not turn around and go, and at the same time show modi that you see, i can do anything i want, and you will not get anywhere , but modi, how do you assess his arrival in russia? what was the purpose of this visit, and what is the current position of the prime minister of india

regarding the russian-ukrainian war. we saw that here modi was trying, as they say, between the drops to sit on two chairs, and for two days, by the way, he was in russia, two days - it's a pretty big visit, well look mozzie definitely doesn't like this war, ugh, and by the way he never hid it, he was the first politician to say that out loud to putin in samarkand 2022 at the shanghai cooperation organization summit, and by the way, already after the visit to moscow, when he was in vienna, the meeting... with the federal of austria karl nyhamer, he also said this, and in moscow he spoke about the suffering of innocent children. he says it all. on the other hand, he has, if you like, his own national interest. and the national interest is connected with the fact that he, one way or another, is a person who is forced to think about the sino-russian partnership. this is a much bigger challenge for him than it seems. china is a real geopolitical

competitor of india. the relationship between them is straining, between these countries, they didn't have a very easy relationship anyway, the relationship is straining between the leaders, to the extent that in recent years, i would say, xijianping has been boycotting all the high-level meetings where moji presides, and moji boycott all summits chaired by sidzempi in 2022 in 2016, modi came to the summit of the shanghai cooperation organization, then, when there was a meeting at the level of the twenty-somethings, modi did not come there, ugh. i'm sorry, there was actually a meeting, you remember, but when the sos summit was held, modi did not appear there either, but he appeared, let's say, at the group of seven summit, where there was no sidjinping, where he was not invited, and they have this real competition, and there is a fear in modi that china is a serious threat to india, and that is why, by and large, modi is now trying to revise the system itself relations between, united states, india.

for the first time in history, these countries signed a strategic partnership agreement during the biden presidency. and you and i understand that this is a very important agreement for the simple reason that one way or another this agreement provides for the deepening of relations between washington and new delhi. and this is china's challenge. and by the way, this is not the only deal. as you know, india is already a member of a number of military alliances. by the united states in the asian and hekan region, but at the same time there is a problem of china and russia. that is, when modi hears that putin insists on a strategic partnership between china and russia, this is a challenge for him. and he may believe that this strategic partnership is simply against india's national interests. relatively speaking, he cannot afford

luxury. to leave putin in xijin ping's arms, which putin did not do. and putin knows this, so he can afford anything. another important domestic political point. these parliamentary elections in india did not end the way modi expected. and for the first time in the history, in general, of moji's political career national, federal, let's say, his party. in harathinata, the party does not have a majority in lopsa, loksapha, in the lower house of the indian parliament, it cannot form the formula to form the government itself, it is forced to form a government with the parties that are part of the bloc with this party, as if there is nothing special, but this is a political humiliation, because, in principle , this is the loss of parliamentary seats, this is the need to part with the idea related to... the fact that

it will be possible to change the constitution, strengthen the powers of the government, all this will not happen, but there is another point, this is the strengthening of the opposition, the strengthening of the india bloc, which was formed on the eve of these parliamentary elections, and the central party in this bloc is the indian national congress, which is led by rahul gandhi, the great-grandson of joaharlanero, the grandson of indira gandhi, and the son of rajiv gandhi. all this of the prime minister of india, and it was during the time of these premiers. ministers of dzhevahar indira gandhi, first of all indira gandhi, of course, the construction of special relations between new delhi and moscow was built, you know, as in the anecdote, dear indira gandhi, leonid brezhnev said, and this was a meme of soviet times, and this is not just a model of cooperation, it is also a model of military cooperation, it is also a model of serious political possibilities.