don't switch, stay with us, 10 years ago a russian buks shot down a boing age-17 in the east of ukraine and only now it became known. after the tragedy, the netherlands trained special forces for military intervention in the conflict zone. we will tell new details of that tragedy, why the guilty have not been punished 10 years later. this is bbc ukraine, i'm olga palomaryuk. after the downing of boeing mh-17 , the netherlands seriously considered military intervention in donbas. fighters even began to be trained, they were australian special forces and dutch security forces. in the first days after the disaster the netherlands deliberately vi'. not to publicly condemn russia,

they wanted to receive the bodies of the dead first. all this is reported by the dutch tv channel, which conducted its own investigation into the origins of the tragedy. the authors spoke with high-ranking officials, they say that a special operation was being developed, the military was to be sent to donbas, but this would be an extreme option. and today , the first persons of the country came to honor the victims of that tragedy in the netherlands. prime minister dix koff, king willem alexander, relatives of the dead, and more thousand, there were also representatives of ukraine. the dead were honored with two minutes of silence and the prime minister spoke as follows. people often start their speeches with the words, how good it is that you are all here today, but i would prefer it to be the other way around, that we would not be here today, i would like you to do the usual things of a usual wednesday, and to remember this there was never a janitor, but if everything was supposed to be. memorial field of sunflowers,

symbolically, because it was sunflowers that grew in the field where the malaysian boeing was developed in 2014. the bbc's anna halligan reports about the place where the memorial to the dead is installed. behind me you can see the symbolic sunflowers planted at the memorial site, which is located a few kilometers from the airport. it was from here that flight mh-17 left for kuala lumpur that day. 10 years ago, these flowers symbolize the sunflower fields that were at the place of the plane crash in eastern ukraine. the passenger riot was brought down from the territory, which at that time was controlled by pro-russian separatists. i will turn the camera to show you the trees planted on this memorial place there are 298 trees, and each one has a plaque with the name of the crew and passengers who were on board each one. if i keep rotating the camera, you will see the tent set up. today, 1,300

relatives of the victims who came from different countries are gathering. next you can see the flags. each flag shows the countries that suffered a loss in this disaster. she left an indelible mark on their history. it's the 10th anniversary. i was at one such ceremony in 2017, when this memorial was just created. it was extraordinary touching, but the relatives today want the country to stop and remember what happened, but also to keep pushing. on bringing the culprits to justice, the dutch court found two russians and one ukrainian guilty, they never served their sentences. many believe russia is responsible, something the kremlin has consistently denied. they demand that russia be held accountable in australia as well. it was australia, together with the netherlands in march 2022, that initiated the council of the international civil aviation organization proceedings against russia regarding the disaster.

boeing, and this is important, this is a different, separate process that takes place in relation to the plane crash. and this is what the minister of foreign affairs of australia said during the memorial service in parliament about the process in the netherlands. the court's findings clearly and convincingly establish russia's responsibility for the downing of mh-17. while we are appalled that russia has withdrawn from a review initiated by australia and the netherlands at the international civil aviation organization, the case will continue. and we will not back down our commitment to hold russia accountable. so what is known and what we still do not know about the downing of boeing? the boeing 777 was on its way from the netherlands to kuala lumpur , malaysia. on july 17, 2014 , fighting broke out between pro-russian militants and the ukrainian army in the sky over donbass, a rocket fired by an isk buk hit... and so: 298

dead. the hague investigators examined 1.5 billion web pages, listened to 150,000 phone calls and in 2022 the district court of the hague. found three people guilty of involvement in the downing of the boeing, two russians and one ukrainian, the former minister of defense of the dpr militants and retired fsb colonel igor girkin, the former head of military intelligence of the dpr militants serhiy dubinsky, and also dubinsky's subordinate in the military intelligence of the so-called dpr militants leonid kharchenko. at this point, the proceedings in the netherlands ended, russia called the court's verdict politically motivated. bbc olga ivshina followed this case from the very beginning, and this is what she told us. one of the convicts is currently in prison, but not in prison in the netherlands, and on a completely different matter,

a citizen of russia, retired fsb colonel igor girkin is currently in a russian colony, he is serving a four-year sentence for calling for extremism, this is what the russian court ruled. girkin was convicted early on. for some time the russian authorities turned a blind eye to it, but then their tolerance for some reason broke through. chronologically, this coincided with the time after prigozhin's rebellion, and so after a fairly short trial he was found guilty of inciting extremism and is now in in prison leonid kharchenko also spent several months behind bars, he was arrested by his own people on the territory. of the so-called dnr as early as 2020 for alleged illegal possession of weapons, although the pistol that was found in his possession was issued to him for protection by the same representatives of the special services of the so- called dnr a few months before that. after a few months behind bars , he was suddenly released, and as the bbc was able

to establish, he then moved to russian territory, obtained a russian passport and settled down before the full-scale invasion began in the south of russia, where he now lives, as far as we know. serhiy dubinskyi, a retired gru colonel as well. lives in the south of russia, as far as we know, in the rostov region, as far as we know, he does not take direct physical part in the invasion, he is now 61 years old, but last year the security service of ukraine announced that they detained a woman who lived in the territory of donetsk oblast and which the court later found guilty of passing on information about the movement of the ukrainian military, and according to the court, she passed this information on to serhii dubinsky, that is , dubinsky may have taken some indirect part in this invasion, the ukrainian court put... during the investigation of the case, the investigators stated that vladimir putin took a personal and direct part in the events in donbas. they even made public recordings of intercepted telephone

conversations, as they say, between him and igor plotnytskyi, the then leader of the militants of the so-called lpr. and here is a fragment of this conversation. other sources also point to the president's personal involvement in the conflict in eastern ukraine, mostly behind the scenes. but even

with such evidence, can the west bring putin to justice for the plane tragedy, and in general, was and is the west's response sufficient? we asked... viewer of the atlantic council michael butsyurkiv. in 2014, he was the spokesman of the osce special monitoring mission to the east of ukraine. of course, when mh-17 was shot down, there was a lot of outrage, a lot of shock and horror. let's not forget that this crime happened shortly after the illegal annexation of crimea by russia. at that time, the us administration of that time, in my opinion, acted very gently. problems of the russian federation with such a thuggish regime. in that if clear boundaries, clear red lines are not established, they will do it again, or move on. and that was a problem going back to 2014. we would never have thought that the russians could shoot down an airliner and make a mockery of the whole process. and of course, after that

happened, we had so many other red lines that russia crossed from the bombing of the theater in mariupol, where there were so many women and children, to the bombing of the maternity hospital to... the long-ago bombing of a children's hospital in kyiv. nothing should surprise us anymore in their ability to commit crimes far beyond what would be expected of a member of the un. it is hard for me to believe that... nato countries, western european countries around that time were ready to send troops to ukrainian soil, and the belated lesson learned from all this, i think, is that words do not deter russia the way that make patriot systems, or missile responses. words have no meaning for her and even sanctions. for example, prime minister kanata trudeau believed that the best way to punish russia after a full-scale invasion of ukraine was to impose sanctions on it, he said, it was the best tool we had, but it... so that's not very good works, so there is only one language that moscow understands, and that is the language

of power. with all this in mind, we may be getting closer to the day when foreign representatives, let's call them trainers, will return to ukrainian soil, but i think there is still a long way to go because western leaders, many of them are still afraid of putin and his bluff regarding the use of tactical nuclear weapons. and that's the end of what happened at the scene of the plane crash. in donbas 10 years ago. bbc correspondent olga ivshina was one of the journalists who went to the scene of the tragedy and this is how she remembers what she saw then. if you describe it in one word, it will be the word chaos. there was chaos, confusion. and of course, a huge tragedy. i was not there immediately when the tragedy happened, but a little later. and this is one of the most difficult stories i have had to cover. the remains of almost 300 people were scattered in... and

right between them parts of human bodies, it was very difficult, it was not like any other plane crash, because the place of an ordinary plane crash is surrounded, law enforcement agencies work there, there was nothing like that here, separatists were roaming around from the so-called dnr with weapons, were going through things, journalists were walking, when we first arrived at the place, they tried to carefully park the car, leave the car. so as not to touch anyone's remains, and thought we had succeeded, but as soon as we opened the door car, we realized that, unfortunately, we stopped right next to parts of human bodies, it was terrible, it was difficult to look at the fact that the collection of remains was mostly not carried out by representatives of some specialized departments, but by ordinary miners who were brought there forcibly, and here these people, after working a hard shift in the mine, went and collected body parts with their bare hands, but it must be said that they did it very diligently. if they found any documents or bank cards, anything that could help identify the person, then

they brought it to us. my colleagues brought documents and bank cards of several people right during the live broadcast, and the miner said that he did not know who to give them to. he said that he did not want to give them to unknown people with automatic weapons and gave them to us because he said that he trusted us more and believed that we would be able to pass it on to the families of the victims. indeed, many things from the personal suitcases of the victims later disappeared. they appeared somewhere in incomprehensible places, from bank cards from had money, there were a lot of such unpleasant moments. i, unfortunately, the most i remembered the moment when they had already collected the remains of all the dead and put them in a refrigerator car, brought all the journalists to solemnly show it, but my colleague and i were delayed because we were working on direct connections, and it so happened that we left a little, and most likely, the so-called denerivites did not see us, and all the other journalists left, and as soon as they thought the last journalist left, they turned off the engine and the refrigerator stopped working. if it is indicative of turning on the refrigerator for only one hour a day, then what will happen to the remains when they reach the

netherlands to malaysia? how to recognize them later? yes, it was the bbc correspondent olga ivshina, and her article, which is still unknown, can be read on our website bbc.ua. 10 years later, on july 17, 2014 , hostilities between pro-russian militants and the ukrainian army broke out over donbas. a missile hit a boeing flight. mh-17 killed all 298 people. after studying dozens of photos and video evidence, as well as hundreds of intercepted telephone conversations, the investigation proved that the plane was shot down by a buk anti-aircraft missile system. the investigators also proved that fired from the territory, which at that time was controlled by the militants of the so-called dpr, and a beech from russia arrived there. well, that's all we have time to talk about today. subscribe to ours. pages in social networks, so as not to miss the most important news, we are on facebook, instagram, tiktok,

you can watch our episode on youtube, if you missed it on the air, turn on our program tomorrow at 9 p.m., all is well. congratulations, friends, the second half of the verdict program is live on the espresso tv channel. my name is serhii rudenko, and we are in this part let's talk about this. it's a good time for negotiations. the majority of ukrainians allow peace negotiations with russia, but on the condition of returning to the borders of 1991. why does society tolerate evasion at the same time. there are no moral forces. the scandalous member of parliament

wrote a statement about leaving the "servant of the people" faction. whom and why is the political one attacking. yes, cornerless. suspicion of bribery. people's deputy mykola zadorozhny was expelled from president zelensky's party. what is happening in the ruling political force? we will talk about all this in the next 45 minutes. i remind you that we work not only live on the espresso tv channel, but also on our youtube and facebook platforms. for those who are now watching us live there. please. add our pages, put an emoticon or write a comment under this video to promote it in the trends of youtube and facebook, and take part in our survey, because throughout our two-hour broadcast we ask you about whether you are preparing your home for winter without light, yes not if you have your own opinion or some of your own

comment, please write under this video, if you watch us on tv and can vote... or by phone, i remind you of the phone numbers, for a phone survey, if you are preparing your home for the winter without electricity, 0800-211-381, no , 08021382, all calls to these numbers are free, vote, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote, i want to introduce the guests of today's studio, this is oleg sahakyan, political scientist, co-founder of the national platform for sustainability and cohesion, mr. oleg, i you... i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today, my congratulations, i am glad to see and hear, in turn, and maksym rozumny, political expert, doctor of political sciences, mr. maksym, i congratulate you, thank you for joining us by phone, because i understand that you obviously have problems with the light, congratulations, congratulations, good evening, and as if the light appeared, now we will solve the technical issues, well

, gentlemen, since we are asking our tv viewers whether they are preparing, preparing they have their homes until winter without light, i will ask you as well, since this is a question it is obviously relevant in the summer, because in the summer you have to think about the winter, moreover, the summer is quite hot and not easy, mr. oleg, well, actually, i am not preparing anymore, because i was preparing even before last winter without light, and therefore plus or minus a basic set for the provision of electricity needs for me... remains the same, and therefore it can be said that i have already prepared for the summer without light, thanks to which, with you, in particular, i periodically appear on the air until next winter. thank you, mr. maxim, mr. maxim, can you hear us? yes, yes, i hear, i hear, yes, i'm getting ready, of course i think about, you know, every evening without light, with

a refrigerator that heats up, it is so to speak... for thought, i guess, i guess i need to stock up on some batteries, although, of course, you can't foresee everything, and even more so, government decisions that will affect it are equally difficult to predict. thank you, mr. maksym, why am i asking you, and why are we asking our viewers, because one way or another it will affect society, how ukrainians will treat the future. negotiations or to negotiations with representatives of the russian federation during of the second peace summit, and there is already sociology, which was published this week by the derzkalo tykhnya edition, commissioned by the razumkov center to conduct a survey, and as evidenced by sociological surveys of ukrainian society, the majority of ukrainians believe that

the time has come to start negotiations between ukraine and russia, almost 44% of respondents. spoke in favor of the beginning of peace talks, against 35%, while 21% have not yet decided. at the same time, half of ukrainians - 51% - insist that the minimum condition for a peace agreement with russia should be the liberation of ukraine from of russian troops in the borders of 1991. 26% can agree to stop the war along the demarcation line at the beginning of 2022, and only 9% are ready to recognize the border along the front line at the time of the conclusion of the agreement. mr. olezh, how will the situation in ukrainian society be? to influence this future plan of peace talks or negotiations in the format of a grain agreement, when there will be three parties, on

the one hand ukraine, there turkey, for example, and russia, and in some formats it will all function, as it was during grain agreement, that is, we will not negotiate with the russians, but there will be mediators who will lead. negotiations, as a result of which some kind of agreement on peace will be reached? you know, i will probably be sharp enough, not to say angry, in commenting on these data, because first of all i have a question for sociologists, when they ask again about the line that existed on february 22nd, i have a question, and what is some in general, it is a realistic situation that this line is somehow at all... drawn somewhere, fixed or reanimated, what is the difference with the de facto front line at the moment, or simply running it along some meridian, parallel or some other geographical

location, so what, it simply does not exist as a phenomenon, it is some kind of phantom pain, and in particular, which is replicated all the time, repeated by sociologists and not only by sociologists, such a line does not exist and will not exist, as a cool and second reality that we need to recognize. in this type of conflict, which is the russian-ukrainian war, diplomatic solutions are not self-sufficient and are not a mechanism for ending the war. diplomacy in such conflicts proceed either by the force of the international order, read by the force of international law, and then diplomacy records for itself what was achieved within the framework of the force of international institutions. we see, they failed the test with russian aggression. therefore international law is currently roughly, i would say impotent , in order to force the aggressor to give up his own ambitions, or secondly,

diplomacy follows force and accordingly then fixes the situation achieved by force, in which case the situation must change to front field, either russia wins, or ukraine to win we see that now the coalition is supportive. ukraine was falling, ukraine was in a difficult situation, the front line is falling, and in the end, ukraine is now forced to fix the situation in order to prevent a catastrophe? no, we don't see it. we see that russia is saving moscow and now recording its defeats, we have already liberated ukraine, we have already liberated crimea. no, we don't see it. perhaps the trend has changed and the balance today shows that the dynamics are moving there. no, it hasn't changed. neither the security nor the diplomatic situation is being created now simply. in order for us to talk about some settlement of the russian-ukrainian war. the maximum that diplomats can do in such conditions is to ensure a temporary truce. but what

does the international experience of ceasefires in such conflicts of an existential nature tell us. this is not a conflict - a dispute in which we did not divide some gas-bearing shelf or some province, or some other separate demand, on which we are arguing with russia, we have come to an end. to the level of a military dispute on knives, no, this is a conflict in which russia has come to destroy everything it does ukraine by ukraine, actually, to destroy the ukrainian state, the ukrainian nation, with the preservation of cultural, some other, etc. moments, but somewhere it is the physical destruction of ukrainians, somewhere it is the destruction of theaters, somewhere the destruction of museums, artifacts, stories in the appropriation of everything else, the destruction of identity, in in this kind of conflict, if a temporary... ceasefire is achieved, it turns into a new round, even bloodier, such quasi-peace is always bloodier than war. and we

observed this in the experience of ukraine minsk-1, minsk-2, in the end of a full-scale invasion, and therefore the illusion that some diplomatic process, in which there will be mediators, not mediators, which will somehow be too designed, is a separate division in political science and science. about the negotiations, which is called the design process of such negotiations, and in fact, whatever it may be, for now we state that the negotiations are nothing more than a diplomatic mechanism to strengthen our position, and not a real negotiation process in which a cessation can be achieved we don't have a war common ground on which it is possible to come to an agreement with the russians, so we must also prepare psychologically. the reality for myself that this war is long enough, we, as a country, as a country, as a nation, will live long enough in conditions of either war or the constant threat of war, and therefore the answer in 44 from ...

hundreds of people who speak on negotiations, at the same time, 91 borders of 1991, although it is more correct, 2013, because we lived in those borders and there were violations in the 13th year, and in 1991 they changed at least twice with moldova and with romania, of course, that we will not raise territorial disputes with our neighbors again, and these figures, with evasion of everything else, show that society is disoriented, it understands that achieving victory in the old paradigm with... the military liberation of the territory, ala the kharkiv and kherson operations , is currently, to put it mildly, romantic and idealistic, there must be another scenario of victory, and society says: give us this scenario, give us something to grab onto and something that can organize us and unite us in achieving this vision ukrainians are lacking, and that’s why, i’m sorry, it’s a mess, it’s fixed by sociologists, society is frustrated, it doesn’t understand what

to expect, it’s afraid of the winter ahead and it’s disorganized in what to do in order to achieve this goal, which is supported by 91% of ukrainians in the form of restoring the territorial integrity and sovereignty of ukraine. thank you, mr. oleg, mr. maksym, in this situation, when it comes to future peace talks, or when putin is talking about the fact that let 's somehow, as they think, solve this crisis, and... to put it simply, somehow ukraine has to capitulate to russia, if you translate what putin says, then zelenskyi says, we cannot decide anything about this, because we have a people, we have ukrainians, and ukrainians have to decide what we should do, how we should do it, whether we should make concessions to moscow or not, of course, when it comes to four or five regions of ukraine, together with the autonomous republic of crimea, then it is a matter

of what. .. there, almost a third or more than 20% of the territories of ukraine must be given to the russians, if we make concessions to putin, but this survey shows that people do not fully understand and cannot give an answer to zelensky, what should he do, whether in this or that situation it is appropriate to talk about the fact that in our country all the people decide , because the same people can be there in two months, when they get tired of the generators and when they get tired. from the lack of electricity, 73% are ready to say yes, and for zelenskyi to go to these negotiations, how to correlate the fact that what society says and gives answers to sociologists, perhaps not knowing the whole information, or not understanding all the processes, and what the president of ukraine or the leadership of ukraine has to make, let's say this, well, since it is so... the points

of question in the plane of such democratic mechanisms, expression of the will of the people, mainly, i would mention here such an analogy with an equally profound moment in our history, not so long ago, in 1991, as you know, there were two referendums, we well remember the results of the referendum on december 1, but before that there was a referendum in march. on which, well, according to the counting of the votes of the then election commissions or special commissions created for this referendum, it was established that the majority of the population of ukraine was in favor of signing a new union treaty, however, ukrainian politicians already at that time included in that survey their question about , so to speak, whether ukrainians are in favor of... for

ukrainian statehood, in a word, er, such two opposite decisions of the ukrainian people, er, by a majority of votes lead us to the opinion that both situational factors are important, and the actual wording of the question is very important, by the way, because of the wording, because of the controversies surrounding the wording, uh, in the history of independent ukraine, referendums are precisely, well, once leonid kuchma tried to use a referendum to find out the will of the people in 1999, but it so to speak , it did not answer the political questions and political challenges of that time, even then, even with all the efforts of the authorities, so why

such a long preamble? and a retreat in the historical e-e ours.