in short, er, such two opposite decisions of the ukrainian people, er, by the majority of votes lead us to the opinion that situational factors are also important, and the actual wording of the question is very important, er, by the way, because of the wording, because disputes over the wording, er, in the history of independent ukraine, a referendum... exactly, well, once leonid kuchma tried to use a referendum to find out the will of the people in 1999, but, er, it was, so to speak, not gave answers to the political questions and political challenges of that time, even then even with all the efforts of the authorities, that's why there is such a long preamble and retreat in our historical one. the recent past in order to come

close to the actual results of this survey, which put many, so to speak, in front of reality, i would say it like this, about the fatigue of the ukrainian people, the population of ukraine, if you like, from the war and a certain disorientation, people, who supported him. with russia , a lot of different meanings can be attached to the concept of negotiations, and even more, even more meanings can be attached to the concept of an agreement or agreements and so on, that is actually the situation when negotiations become an instrument of politics and become an instrument of war, hybrid war. you and i

remember very well, this is exactly what the negotiations were like in the framework of the so-called minsk process, in fact then i tried all the time to prove the idea that these negotiations, the minsk process should not be considered as a path to peace, they should be considered as a way , well, if not to defeat the enemy, then at least to gain an advantage, but in the current situation something is at stake... something else, in my opinion, is at stake, uh, well, if we analyze the situation according to the different peace plans that have already been announced at the public level, there was trump's plan, there was putin's plan, zelensky's plan, then today the situation is developing mainly, in my opinion, within the framework of sydzenpin's plan, the so-called chinese . plan, and it provides for gradual

de-escalation, and actually we are just one step away from this de-escalation. what does this step look like? putin, if you remember, said that he is ready to cease fire, er, ready to stop active hostilities on the front, and now, as we understand, it is russia that is the active party, precisely. russia is on the offensive, under several conditions, well i will not repeat these conditions, they are clearly unacceptable to us, but from this position it is just one step to another position, which is called, and quite often this formula is used in the practice of freezing conflicts, this step is called ceasefire, ceasefire in the countryside. without

preconditions, that is, in fact, to this situation, in my opinion, both sides are approaching, so to speak, the war or conflict in such in terms of international politics, interested stakeholders, that is, china itself and our western partners, including, does this mean that there will be a new... agreement or does it mean that the ukrainians will agree to the loss of their territories? not at all necessary, not at all necessary with a cease-fire, in fact such an unconditional cease-fire will lead in the near future to some kind of agreement and to some kind of understanding between the parties and so on, of course this is not peace, of course it is far from peace. but this is

the scenario that, according to my observations, is being pushed for from all sides and russia and ukraine, our external partners, here... we have already talked about this sociology, one more fact must be said, about what these data show, even though the majority of ukrainians long for a return to the borders of 91- th year, but at the same time, a critical minority believes that during the war it is a shame to be a uchilanto, this is only 29%, on the other hand, almost half of 46% do not see anything shameful in the fact that, to be... a uchilianto, and this is also very telling , because it is not at all clear when society seeks to return to the borders of 1991, but 46% does not see anything shameful in being a dodger, this is also evidence of the state

of society, or his unwillingness to look at reality in the eyes of mr. oleg, what about the 46% who believe that not being a dodger is quite normal, and let someone is fighting, that is, it turns out that 46% believe that someone will win, go to the 91st year, and 54% will fight , we do not, unfortunately, we do not have a... i will also bypass the mainstream a little in this matter, since it is a characteristic of us ukrainians, in our political culture, to leave the position moralizing, ah, inflated expectations and

an idea of ​​how it should be in some ideal world, if unicorns walked the streets in kyiv, and pink ponies met in holosiiv park... under every bush, but obviously, that we live in a world where everything is far from ideal, and to hope that during our physical life with you this world will become somehow ideal would probably be extremely naive, and therefore the position of a moral imperative or a certain moralism in relation to society, it is a is often unsuccessful if we are talking about something applied, and analyzing these numbers, sociology, it... gives us an understanding of society's pain, what society thinks here and now, what it thinks about, or how it relates to the situation, or what it means to us wants to say, even without often understanding and not having the ability to rationally articulate it, this figure, it

is not about tolerating evasion as such, as it seems to me, it is about mistrust of the state in the matter of mobilization, society says that because, as currently ... mobilization is taking place, society does not trust the state in this part does not trust, and it rather has a more administrative, instrumental , organizational nature, because if we look at other issues, and whether you are ready to defend the homeland, and under what conditions you are ready to defend it, in what situation you are ready to do it, we will see there absolutely other numbers, and the society that was ready to defend the state a year ago, two years ago and still maintains one of the highest. levels of readiness to protect the state in europe, this is the same society that answers this question and means that the state must be doing something wrong somewhere did and did not take advantage of the potential that was in her hands, and something is wrong if this potential burns with

such a low coefficient, so i would here, of course, just as internal indignation at how you can answer like that, after all i would leave somewhere aside not... expertise, but a personal assessment position, and if we talk about sociology, you know, it is like a blood test, in which there are numbers, there are indicators, but it is very important to interpret it correctly, because it can be an indicator of absolutely different diseases, various problems, or, on the contrary, their absence, then it is extremely important to go into the constructive field and understand, and what we can do so that this figure returns to an absolutely adequate level and testifies to the fact that our organism is a society. and the state rather becomes healthier than the sick, because now it shows a sick trend, and the sick trend is also evidenced by the way some politicians continue to attack the military leadership of the armed forces of ukraine, in particular the people's

deputy of ukraine mariana bezugla, enough has been actively criticizing the ukrainian generals for the last time that they are mismanaging the army, that they are creating... some conditions that are wrong, and which can lead to some negative consequences on the front, on her facebook page she... wrote her about the fact that she is being harassed while working in the national security committee, because she allegedly accused syrskyi of mismanaging the armed forces of ukraine, after my already open conflict with the committee based on criticism of the military leadership and the law on mobilization, i had the biggest attacks from members of my native faction, i no longer have the moral strength to associate myself with the faction, i even formally sent a statement to withdraw from the parliamentary faction. the servant of the people faction should finally read the statement this week, and today just as this statement was read,

the servant of the people faction came out of the corner. the day before, people's deputy of ukraine fedir vienislavskyi, who is also a member of the servant of the people faction, filed a complaint with the sbu against mp mariana bezovla for disclosing information in the field of security and defense at a closed meeting to the parliamentary committee, they call bezgola a political torpedo and a person who torpedoes. first torpedoed zaluzhnyi, now torpedoes syrian, is this, again, mr. maksym, connected with polls, because the level of trust in the armed forces of ukraine is now quite high, the highest, the highest, and it is clear that bezula, being in the team, in the presidential team, until today in the servant of the people faction, yet she obviously did what was somehow... tolerated by the presidential team, otherwise if it wasn't, you know, i'm going to start the answer

from the end point, and then i'll go back to the logic that leads me to this idea, but imagine that negotiations actually began in some such obviously indirect format, that is, shuttle diplomacy, or somehow there, as the president... agreements one after the other and reached, so to speak, agreements on a ceasefire. martial law is being lifted in ukraine, and elections are being held in ukraine. and, for example, the servant of the people party is going to the elections. which may not be very actively supported by the incumbent president zelenskyi. and at the same time , another political project is emerging with people, so to speak, of a different kind, principled public, radical, and

perhaps maryana bezurgla will appear there, well , she is, so to speak, a pre-election political, uh- er, political modeling, it prompts us to think about, including sociological polls, because both in... politics, in domestic, and in the actual, in the attitude towards the evaders, and in the attitude towards the possibility of peace negotiations with russia, the same laws actually work public opinion, public attitudes, and these laws are that public opinion and attitude, they are not formed on some clear, causal, rational basis... they are situational, they are changeable, and under certain conditions they can be predicted and they

can be managed, they can be managed, but understanding that they develop in a non-linear way, not on rational grounds, but actually on these emotional grounds, which are discussed in the previous remarks. of the speaker was actually based on moral and ethical assessments, and here, as interpreters, as commentators, so to speak, can take different positions, and people themselves take different positions, let's remember who becomes the heroes of folk epics, but we recently, well, some time has already passed, but relatively recently everyone watched... this is the movie dovbush, who, who are the other folk heroes? karmelyuk, if you were to ask a peasant

of that time, is it right to kill and rob? he would tell you, it's absolutely wrong, you should never do that. and do you like karmelyuk or dovbush? yes, i sing a song about him after a glass, an epic, yes so to speak, opryshkivskyi, that is, of some consequence'. in such approaches should not be expected, and these are the laws of politics, including, therefore, summarizing. i think that maryana bezugla is obviously not a spontaneous phenomenon of ukrainian politics, otherwise she would not have this political platform that she has, otherwise we would not be talking about her with you, otherwise she would not be included in future sociological surveys. and this

is easy for us to check, i mean by the measures of her ratings, popularity, and we will be able to translate this very easily. soon enough i think well, mr. alezh, the fact that bezugla can be the leader of some conditional, conditional party, or one of the speakers of this party or the political torpedo of some party, let's say this, is obvious, but on the other hand, in the current situation, bezugla is acting in the role of a political torpedo used by the russian federation, because i transferred... during the last three days, various tv broadcasts there and publications in the russian press, and they mainly refer to bezugla, they say: listen, well, syrsky is done, he is ready there give, ready to surrender, that is, and in the conditions of war, this is also inadmissible, because it turns out that she is a ukrainian politician who does not understand

the ukrainian army well, let's say, frankly, she is not a military person, she can only... there are some certain secrets of secrets of the parliamentary committee on national security , it is relevant, but on the other hand, well, that is, it is also not possible to demolish the entire military leadership of ukraine and, well, in fact, just burn this leadership with napalm? mrs. bezugla is an ideal discrediter of any messages, meanings, and so on. and such an image of her was created, i think that it was consciously created, because all the time in her rhetoric she combines both righteous and sinful, a significant part of the words she says regarding the situation in the army, regarding the many problems that exist, they are absolutely fair, and they can be you can really hear from the military, you can also hear from the expert

environment, and it repeats them and rightly repeats them, but besides that there is a lot of wrong... and how this information is interpreted, how it is presented, what conclusions are drawn and what recommendations for results of this, well, for example, to retire the syrian, to remove the dubious and everything else, in this case, in fact, it can be regarded as a technology, when it can be the speaker whose task, in fact, is to discredit the subject in general and to discredit even the truthful ones. the right critical moments and for the attention that exists, because if they were voiced by a bizugla, then few people would want to stand next to her, and in this way , these words are voiced by her, they are devalued. besides, i 'm not sure that when we talk about the cornerless, we can talk exclusively about it, like there a person who voices theses that come down,

nevertheless, based on his psychological temperament, a certain political path, based on... this is a person who has a sufficiently high and large field of subjectivity in his words and his actions, and after all, her temperament is ala, the komsomol, the soviet komsomol, it also shows that she can be firmly convinced of certain things, and really either be able to force herself to believe in them and in the correctness of her steps, or accept the belief from someone in authority, such words and then get off with them under the flag, but i would leave large spaces of the fact that it is myself... ms. bezovla's activities and periodically next to the one where it is absolutely obvious that she performed subordinate, party or politically dictated roles and orders for these or other theses. so, against the background of what is happening with mariana bezugla and the military leadership of the armed forces of ukraine, and mariana has already left the servant

of the people herself, there is another people's deputy of ukraine who was expelled from the servant of the people party, this is mykola za... and today he was awarded bail in the amount of uah 3,2800. language it is about a person who is accused of receiving a bribe in the amount of uah 3,400,000. this person, who was elected in the majority district in sumy oblast, and in okhtyrka was supposed to distribute money for reconstruction, for buildings. two-hundred and a man wanted to take his 10% interest there from this big contract, as a result, nabu was detained on suspicion of extorting a bribe. mykola zadorozovny, who, by the way, is close to president zelenskyi, now this zadorozhny is being thrown out of the servant of the people party, making bail, well,

all these things are traditional, already from these stories about the servant of the people with bribes, with suspicions, with pledges, with electronic bracelets, they are no longer among them , that is, this is a party that, in addition to monopolies, also holds. monopoly on bribery, i understand it that way, because you can't say it any other way, as it is, that is, monopower implies monoresponsibility and monoinfluence. so, mr. maksym, how do you assess the rather difficult and long cleansing of this party in general, because they all came with the slogans of overcoming corruption, and zelensky asked what poroshenko and his friends had? could president zelensky be an example? in the 24th year, ask

president zelenskyi in the 24th year if he was a sample of the 19th year, and why do zelenskyi's friends have two hands? yes, this is a very logical question, but let's remember. the evolution, so to speak, of the phenomena, er, of president zelenskyi and the authorities, the monologues of the servants of the people, and so on. first, as you know, there was a movie, uh, that is, the series servant of the people, uh, then there was a presidential candidate, uh, volodymyr zelensky, who, well, identified with the hero in such a specific way. of this series and then appeared billboards with with very simple recipes for the renewal of the country, and

then under these slogans he gathered a very short period of time some people who were taken to bukovel and there they learned to be a deputy, we understand from where. these people started, obviously, they must have watched the series, but it is not necessary, these people are, so to speak, the cream of our society, who joined the ship of the new government from various spheres, and they were born in the wrong the moment they became servants of the people, by then they already knew what 10% kickback was and...obviously did not forget this, being already in the deputies' seats, what's the point? to the point that er, as long as

this model of political life and political er mobilization will be preserved in our country, i would call it that, until these er rakes will constantly hit the forehead of an ordinary ukrainian voter, who will believe the next one. politics, will remember the next name, the next number in the ballot, will mark it with a tick, and then say: but they are the same, because, because these people are taken from ukrainian society, and from those spheres of it that, so to speak, are already immersed in this corrupt, well, paternalistic cliche. pisku, whatever you want to call this system, and they grew up in it, and they grew up in it to ukrainian politics, so

there is nothing to be surprised here, here we need to monitor the situation when something new appears in ukrainian society for a start, some other corporation of people , which, so to speak, do not come from anywhere, do not come from... so to speak, from the elite of our media hyped or just new masters of life, this is such a new corporation that will announce itself before the elections, long before the elections and before the formation of the party brand, it can only change, until then everything will be the same, thank you maksym, thank you, mr. oleg, one and a half minutes, very briefly, if possible, i would not particularly... i would talk about some kind of election rating story, because in this situation, in the situation in which we are now, there is no space for an election campaign, only after the elections, and after

the war, there will be others. a reality in which a lot of things will change, and we can only guess what this reality will be like today, and i i think that in such a case someone will be found who will then take the list of questions that the president, at that time, presidential candidate, zelenskyi asked to president poroshenko and simply repeat them one to one to president zelenskyi, and i hope that during that time, which remains, there will be significantly fewer questions that will be relevant. because today, unfortunately, there are much more of them than there should be. thank you, oleg sahakyan, maksym rozumny, were guests of our program today. thank you, gentlemen, for participating in program let me remind you that during our broadcast we conducted a survey, we asked you, friends, whether you are preparing your apartment. lakalut aktiv++ - an action that you feel immediately. there are discounts, representing the only discounts on glycyset and glycyset max. 20% in travel bam pharmacies and savings. in

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