youtube and facebook, and take part in our survey, because throughout our two-hour broadcast we ask you about whether you are preparing your home for winter without electricity, yes no, if you have your own opinion or any comment of your own, please write to with this video, if you watch us on tv and can vote by smartphone or phone, i remind you of the phone numbers for the phone survey, if you are preparing your home for the winter without electricity, 082... 381821382, all calls to these numbers are free, vote at the end of the program , we will sum up the results of this vote. i would like to introduce the guests of today's studio, this is oleg sahakyan, political scientist, co-founder of the national platform of sustainability and cohesion. mr. oleg, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. my greetings, glad to see and hear. on loan and maksym rozumny, political expert, doctor of political sciences. mr. maxim, i am you. congratulations,

thank you for joining us on the phone, because i understand that you obviously have problems with the light, congratulations, congratulations, good evening, and as if the light has appeared, now we will solve the technical issues, eh, come on , gentlemen, since we ask our tv viewers whether they are preparing, are they preparing their homes for the winter without light, i will also ask you, since this question is relevant, obviously especially in the summer. because in the summer you have to think about the winter, especially since the summer is hot and difficult enough, mr. oleg, well, actually, i’m not preparing anymore, because i was preparing even before last winter without electricity, and therefore plus or minus a basic set to meet my electricity needs remains the same, and therefore, it can be said that i have already prepared for the summer without light, thanks to which, with you in particular, i periodically appear on the air until the next winter. thank you, mr. maxim, mr.

maxim, can you hear us? yes, yes, i hear, i hear, yes, well, i’m preparing, of course, i’m thinking, you know, every evening without light, with a refrigerator that heats up, it, so to speak, makes you think, probably, what, probably, what should be stocked up some batteries, although, of course, not before... you see, and even more so, government decisions that will affect it, as well hard to predict. thank you, mr. maksym, why am i asking you, and why are we asking our viewers, because one way or another it will affect society, how ukrainians will feel about future peace negotiations or negotiations with representatives of the russian federation during the second the peace summit, and there is already sociology, which was published this week by publications. the mirror

of the week commissioned by him the razumkov center conducted a survey and as shown by sociological surveys of ukrainian society, the majority of ukrainians believe that the time for the start of negotiations between ukraine and russia has already arrived, almost 44% of those polled spoke in favor of the start of peace talks, against 35%, while 21% have not yet decided, while half. 51% of ukrainians insist that the minimum condition for a peace agreement with russia should be the liberation of ukraine from russian troops in the borders of 1991. 26% can agree to stop the war along the demarcation line in early 2022, and only 9% are ready to recognize the border along the front line at the time of the conclusion of the agreement. mr. olezh, how is the situation in... the middle of society

of ukrainian will influence this future plan of peace talks or negotiations in the format of a grain agreement, when there will be three parties, on the one hand ukraine, there turkey, for example, and russia, and in some formats it will all function, as it was during grain agreement, that is, we will not negotiate with the russians. but there will be mediators who will conduct negotiations, as a result of which some kind of peace agreement will be reached? you know, i will probably be sharp enough, not to say angry, in commenting these data, because first of all i have a question for the sociologists, when they again ask about the line that existed on february 22, i have a question, and what is realistic at all. the situation that this line

is somehow drawn somewhere, fixed or reanimated, what is its difference from the de facto front line at the moment, or its simply being drawn along some meridian. or in some other geographical locations, so what, it simply does not exist as a phenomenon, it is some kind of phantom pain, in particular, which is constantly replicated, repeated by sociologists and not only by sociologists, such a line does not exist and will not exist, as a cool and second reality that we need to recognize in this type of conflict, which is the russian-ukrainian war, diplomatic solutions are not self-sufficient. and is not a mechanism for ending the war. diplomacy in such conflicts proceeds either by the force of the international order, read by the force of international law, and then diplomacy records for itself what was achieved within the framework of the force of international institutions. as we can see, they did not pass the test of russian aggression, so

international law is currently crude, i would say impotent in order to force the aggressor to give up his own. ambition, and secondly, diplomacy follows force, and accordingly, then fixes the situation that was achieved by force, and in this case , the situation on the front field must change, either russia will win, or ukraine will win. we see that now the coalition supporting ukraine is crumbling, ukraine is in a difficult situation, the front line is crumbling, and in the end ukraine is forced to fix the situation now in order to prevent a catastrophe. no, we don't see it. we see that russia is saving moscow and is now recording its defeats. we are already liberating ukraine, we have already liberated crimea. no, we don't see it. perhaps the trend has changed and the balance today shows that the dynamics are moving there. no, it hasn't changed. neither the security nor the diplomatic situation currently creates

space for us to talk about some kind of settlement of the russian-ukrainian war. the maximum that diplomacy can do in such conditions is to ensure a temporary truce. but what does the international experience of termination tell us fire in such conflicts, which are of an existential nature? this is not a conflict - a dispute in which we did not share some gas-bearing shelf or some province or some other separate demand, on which we argue with russia reached the level of a military dispute with knives, no, this is a conflict in which russia came to destroy all that what makes ukraine ukraine, actually. to destroy the ukrainian state, the ukrainian nation while preserving cultural, other, etc. moments, but somewhere it is the physical destruction of ukrainians, somewhere it is the destruction of theaters, somewhere the destruction of museums, artifacts, history, in the appropriation of everything else, the destruction of identity, in this kind of conflict, if a temporary

ceasefire is achieved, it turns into a new round, even bloodier, such a quasi-peace is always bloodier than war. and we observed this in ukraine's experience of minsk-1, minsk-2, in the end of a full-scale invasion, and therefore the illusion that some diplomatic process, in which there will be mediators, not mediators, which will be somehow designed, is generally a separate division in political science and about science about negotiations, which is called the process design of such negotiations, and in fact, whatever it may be, for now we have to state that... the talks are nothing more than a diplomatic mechanism to strengthen our position, and not a real negotiation process, in which there can be the end of the war was achieved. we do not have a common ground on which it is possible to agree with the russians, so we have to

prepare and psychologically accept the reality that this war is long enough, we and the country, as a country, as a nation, will live for a while longer long enough in the conditions of either war or the constant... threat of war, and therefore the answer is 44% of people who talk about negotiations, at the same time 91 borders of 1991, although it is more correct than 2013, because we lived in those borders and violations were in the 13th year, and in the 91st year, they changed at least twice with moldova and with romania, it is clear that we will not raise territorial disputes with our neighbors again, and these figures evasively, to all others, indicate that , that society is disoriented, it understands... that achievement victory in the old paradigm of the military liberation of the territory ala the kharkiv and kherson operations is currently romantic and idealistic, to put it mildly, there must be another scenario of victory and society says: "give us this scenario, give us something to grab onto and something that

will be able to organize and solidify us in achieving this, the vision of ukrainians is lacking, and that's why, i'm sorry, porridge, it is fixed by sociologists, the state is frustrated, it does not understand what to expect, it is afraid of the winter ahead, and it is disorganized in that, what to do in order to achieve this goal, which is supported by 91%. in the form of restoring the territorial integrity and sovereignty of ukraine. thank you, mr. oleg. mr. maksym, in this situation, when it comes to future peace talks, or when putin says that let's solve this crisis somehow, as they think, or simply put, somehow ukraine should capitulate to russia, if translated what putin says, zelensky says, we cannot solve anything. about this, because we have a people, we have ukrainians, and ukrainians have to decide what we should do, how

we should do it, whether we should make concessions to moscow or not, of course, when we are talking about four, about five regions of ukraine, together with the autonomous republic of crimea, then we are talking about what there, almost a third or more than 20% of the territory of ukraine must be given to the russians, if concessions are made to putin, but this... shows that the people do not quite understand and cannot give an answer to zelensky, what to do to him, or in this, is it appropriate in this situation to talk about the fact that everything is decided by the people in our country, because it is the same people maybe in two months, when they get tired of the generators and when they get tired of the lack of electricity, 73% will say yes, we are ready, and that zelenskyi will go to these meetings. we are confused, how to correlate what, what society says and gives answers

to sociologists, perhaps not knowing all the information, or not understanding all the processes, and what the president of ukraine or the leadership of ukraine has to make, let's say so , well, since, so to speak, the issue in the plane of such democratic mechanisms, expression of the will of the people, mainly i would mention such an analogy here. with an equally profound moment in our history, not so long ago, in 1991, as you know, there were two referendums, we well remember the results of the referendum on december 1, but before that there was a referendum in march, in which, well, for by counting the votes of the then election commissions or special commissions created under... the referendum, it was established that the majority of the population of ukraine was in favor of

signing a new union treaty, however, ukrainian politicians had already included in that survey their question about so to speak, whether ukrainians are in favor of ukrainian statehood, in a word, these two opposite decisions of the ukrainian people , by the majority of votes, lead us to the opinion that both situational factors are important, and the formulation itself the question is very important, by the way, because of the wording, because of the controversies surrounding the wording, in the history of independent ukraine, referendums just, well, once leonid kuchma tried to use a referendum for... the will of the people in 1999, but this, so to speak , did not

give answers to political questions and the political challenges of that time, even then, even with all the efforts of the authorities, so why such a long preamble and retreat into the historical, our recent past? in order to come close to the actual results of this survey, which... put many, so to speak, in front of reality, i would say it like this, about the fatigue of the ukrainian people, the population of ukraine, if you like, from the war and a certain disorientation, eh well, people who supported negotiations with russia can put a lot of different meanings into the concept of negotiations. and even more, even more values can be included in the concept of agreements or

agreements and so on. actually, the situation when negotiations become an instrument of politics and become an instrument of war, hybrid war, you and i remember very well, that is exactly what the negotiations were like in the framework of the so-called minsk process. in fact , at that time, i tried to prove the idea all the time that these negotiations, the minsk process, should not be considered as a path to peace, they should be considered as... a way, well, if not to defeat the enemy, then at least to gain an advantage, but in the current situation, going on something about something else, in my opinion, it is about , well, if you analyze the situation according to the peace plans that have already been announced at the public level,

there was trump's plan, there was putin's plan, zelensky's plan, uh... then the situation is developing today mainly, as far as i'm concerned, within the framework of xi jinping's plan, the so-called chinese plan, and it provides for gradual de-escalation, and actually we are just one step away from this de-escalation, what does this step look like? putin, if you remember, said that he is ready to... stop fire, ready to stop active hostilities on the front, and now, as we understand, it is russia that is the active party, it is russia that is leading the offensive, under several conditions, well, i will not repeat these conditions, they are clearly unacceptable to us, but from this position just one

step to another position, which is called, and quite often this formula for... in the practice of freezing conflicts, this step is called cessation of fire, sease fire without preconditions, that is, actually, to this situation, in my opinion, they are approaching so to speak, both sides of a war or conflict in such terms of international politics, interested stakeholders, that is, china itself and our western partners, including whether this means that there will be a new agreement, whether it means that the ukrainians will agree to the loss of their territories, not necessarily, not necessarily necessarily, in the case of a cease-fire,

such an unconditional cease-fire, will lead to a closer one. prospects for some kind of agreement and some kind of understanding between the parties and so on, of course, this is not peace, of course, it is far from peace, but this is the scenario to which, according to my observations, they are pushing from all sides and russia and ukraine, our external partners. now, we have already talked about this sociology, one more fact must be said about what, what, what it testifies to. these data show that, although the majority of ukrainians long for a return to the borders of 1991, at the same time, a critical minority believes that during the war it was avoided to be ashamed, this is only 29%, on the other hand, almost half, 46%, do not see anything shameful in the fact that , to be a dodger, and this is also

very telling, because i don't understand at all. when society seeks to return to borders of the 1991 year, but 46% do not see anything shameful in being a dodger, this is also evidence of the state of society, or its unwillingness to face reality, mr. oleg, what, what are these 46% who in... it's quite normal to be a scumbag and let someone fight, that is, it turns out that 46% believe that someone will win, get to the 91st year, and 54% will fight, we don't, unfortunately, we don't have a connection, turn it on, listen, i

may also go a little past the master here in this matter, since... we have a characteristic of ukrainians, in our political culture to get out of the position of moralizing, and inflated expectations and ideas about how it should be in some ideal world, if unicorns walked the streets in kyiv, and pink ponies could be found under every bush in holosiiv park. but it is obvious that we live in a world where not everything is perfect. and to hope that during our physical life with you this world will become somehow ideal would probably be extremely naive, and therefore the position of a moral imperative or a certain... moralism in relation to society, it often has a failed character, if we talk about something applied, and by analyzing these numbers, sociology,

it gives us an understanding of the pain of society, of what society thinks here and now, what it thinks about, or how it relates to the situation, or what it wants to tell us, even without often understanding, and not without the ability to rationally articulate it, this number, it is not about tolerance. evasion as such, in my opinion, it is about mistrust of the state in the matter of mobilization, society says that because, as currently mobilization is taking place, society does not trust, the state is not trusted in this part, and this rather has a more administrative, instrumental, organizational nature, because if we look at other issues, are you ready to defend the homeland, and under what conditions are you ready to defend it, in which situation you are ready to do it, we will absolutely see there. numbers and the society that was ready to defend the state a year ago, two years ago and still maintains one of the highest levels in europe

of readiness to defend the state, this is the same society that answers this question, and means that the state probably did something wrong somewhere and did not use the potential that was in its hands, and it is doing something wrong if this potential burns with such a low ratio. therefore, i would here, of course, just as internal indignation at how one can answer like this, still i would leave somewhere on the side not expertise, but a personal position of assessment, and if we talk about sociology, and you know this, like a blood test, in which has numbers, has indicators, but it is very important to interpret it correctly, because it can be an indicator of completely different diseases, various problems, or, on the contrary, their absence, it is extremely important to go into the constructive field and understand: what can we do to ensure that this figure returns to an absolutely adequate plane, and testifies to the fact that our organism, social and state, rather becomes

healthier than sick, because now she is showing a sick trend, er, and the sick trend is also evidenced by the way some politicians continue to attack the military leadership of the armed forces of ukraine, in particular the people's deputy of ukraine. maryana has enough of a corner has been actively accusing the ukrainian generals of mismanaging the army, that they are creating some conditions that are wrong and that can lead to some negative consequences at the front, on her facebook page she wrote about being harassed in working time in the national security committee. because she allegedly accused syrsky that he mismanages the armed forces of ukraine, after my already open conflict with the committee on the basis of criticism of the military leadership and

the law on mobilization, the biggest attacks i had from members of her native faction, she no longer has the moral strength to associate herself with the faction, even formally, sent a statement to withdraw from the servant of the people parliamentary faction. from the servant of the people faction. the day before , people's deputy of ukraine fedir vienislavskyi, who is also a member of the servant of the people faction, filed a complaint with the sbu against mp mariana bezugla for disclosing information in the field of security and defense at a closed meeting of the parliamentary committee. headless is called a political torpedo, and the person who torpedoes, first torpedoed the hard-working, now torpedoes syrskyi. is this, again, mr. maksym, connected with... opinion polls, because the level of trust in the armed forces of ukraine is now quite high, the highest, the highest, and it is clear that bezula, being in the team,

the presidential team, until today day in the servant of the people faction, after all, she was obviously doing something that somehow uh-uh was tolerated by the presidential team, otherwise it wouldn't have happened, uh, you... you know, i'll start the answer from the end point, and then i will return to the logic that leads me to this opinion, but imagine that negotiations really began in some such, obviously indirect format, that is, shuttle diplomacy, or something like the grain agreement, in turn and reached, so to speak, agreements on termination. of fire, and martial law is lifted in ukraine, and elections are held in ukraine. and, for example, the servant of the people party is going to the elections. which may

not be very actively supported by the current president zelenskyi, but in parallel another political project appears with people, so to speak, of a different kind, principled, public, radical, and maybe maryana bezurgla will appear there, so to speak, a pre-election politician. political modeling, it prompts us to think about, including sociological polls, because the same laws actually work in politics, in the domestic sphere, and in the attitude towards evasions and the possibility of peace negotiations with russia public opinion, public sentiment, and these laws are

in... in the fact that public opinion and attitude, they are not formed on some clear cause-and-effect, rational basis, they are situational, they are changeable, and under certain conditions they can be predicted and they can be managed, they can be managed , but understanding that they do not develop in a linear way, not on rational bases and... and actually on these emotional bases, which were discussed in the previous speaker's reply, actually on moral and ethical assessments, and here, as interpreters, as commentators, so to speak say, they can occupy different positions, and people themselves occupy different positions, let's remember

who becomes them. heroes of folk epics, here we are recently, well, it’s true, some time has passed, but relatively recently everyone watched the movie dovgush, er, who, who else are folk heroes, karmelyuk, if you were to ask a peasant of that time whether it was right to kill him, to rob, he would tell you, is definitely wrong, you should never do that, and do you like it? or dovbush ta, i sing a song about him after a glass, an epic, so to speak, of opryshkiv, that is, of some kind consistency in such approaches should not be expected, and these are the laws of politics, including, therefore , summing up, i think that maryana bezugla is an obvious, not... spontaneous phenomenon of ukrainian

politics, otherwise she would not have this political platform that she she has, otherwise we would n't be talking about her with you, otherwise she wouldn't be included in future sociological surveys, and we can easily check this, i mean by the measures of her ratings, popularity, and we can check this very easily, i think already quite soon, well, but mr. oleg, what the bezula can do... there, the leader of some conditional, conditional party or one of the speakers of this party or a political torpedo of some party, let's say this, it is obvious, but on the other hand, in the current situation, bezugla acts as a political torpedo, which is used by the russian federation, because i mentioned over the past three days, various television broadcasts and publications in the russian

press and... they mainly refer to the bezuglu, they say, listen, well, sirsky is all there, he is ready to surrender, he is ready to surrender, that is, even in war conditions unacceptable, because it turns out that a ukrainian politician who is not well versed in the ukrainian military, let's be frank, is not a military person, she can only have access to certain secrets, the secrets of the parliamentary committee on national security. it is tangential, but on the other hand, well, that is, it is also not possible to demolish the entire military leadership of ukraine and, well, in fact, just burn this leadership with napalm? mrs. bezugla is an ideal discrediter of any messages, meanings, and actual theses, and such an image of her was created, i think, consciously created