spain has a problem with catalonia, in italy the prime minister is a post-fascist, in france, in germany there are also issues, scotland, obviously, on this side we have viktor orbán, a very dangerous figure, very dangerous, because he behaves as if he was is putin's envoy, the hungarian liaison officer,

and such a project actually exists in every european country and not only in europe. for example, to bolsonaro and others, so if we are talking about ukraine, this is, in my opinion, the most important moment in the history of ukraine, from the beginning of its existence. ukraine consciously paying the highest price. blood, victims, suffering, builds its new national identity. and in fact, ukraine has already won this war, already won, if putin is unable to break the ukrainian resistance for two years, i thought he would do it in a week. this is a vivid manifestation of what the ukrainian people want, we will talk about the problems later, when ukraine wins. but the most important thing is the demonstration of maturity by the political elites. that means

responsibility, right? and the most important thing is the readiness of the ruling mouths in poland, that of tusk himself, go to the end. tusk is going far, but the most important thing is the demonstration of maturity by the political elites, and maturity means responsibility, right? in the understanding that we have today, of course, he is deeply convinced that the case of ukraine is the case of poland.

the fact that he was able to win these elections is simply a masterpiece, how it was done. in this sense, i think he has a lot of maturity in him. but, of course, there are elements of the elites who have a different opinion, who believe that ukraine is none of our business. that this is characteristic of russia, and that we do not get involved in it.

sometimes they say it louder, and sometimes more quietly, they don't say it very loudly, but they say it, and these are putin's messages, disdain for gays, jews, gays, nazids. but yes, they like putin, so there will be problems here, but if we look at the long term, it becomes obvious that the chance for poland is the victory of ukraine. if

they say in poland that we will have problems with the victory of ukraine, i answer. ukraine and poland will have problems, because we have other interests when it comes to farming and so on. well, there will be time to negotiate, but it is better than living under the boot of the kremlin. it's true, i completely agree, but at one time, marshal piłsudski became a hostage of what was called the polish endezia. i agree. of course, different times, but 100 years ago, we saw something similar. i am afraid of only one thing, that at some point tusk will not say. i'm sorry, i'm very sorry, it was 100 years ago, marshal kapilsutsky's conversation with interned ukrainian soldiers. yes, yes, i'm sorry, i'm so

sorry. it was like, well, i can't exclude the bad scenario. this is a country, so says my experience, where everything is possible, even changes for the better, so everything can work out, you have to believe in it, you have to be an optimist, you can't be a pessimist, go forward with your head turned back. we must be optimistic, i believe that we will succeed in something, because we have already succeeded in several things. after all, in 1988 , no one in poland believed that we would topple.

and this is a flower that can be watered and an organism that can be poisoned with the poison of xenophobia. that is, i love poland very much, but it is real love, because it is without illusions. i realize

how much still needs to be done in poland, and these eight years brutally showed it. there is still a lot of work to be done on consciousness, how easy it is to instill and revive all those twists of nationalism in poland. it's a big problem, but no... it's a force, behind it is the historical memory, it's the feeling that we are innocent by nature, that we've never done anything bad to anyone, it's all that rests on lies. you talk about poland in such a way that sometimes i transfer it to ukraine, that we are innocent, and that our mykola gogol was only good a writer and a man, but he was also an imperial tool. here is taras bulba, what was taras bulba about? and we understand that

it was written after the uprising, which the russians simply destroyed. gogol walked like a good angel of the orthodox world, praised the white king and so on. and all this was on corpses. but dead souls is a masterpiece. it is only about the fact that we in ukraine should be critical of our mines as well. the occupation government, the occupation administration, an extremely good person, very good, very good, responsible, did a lot, but it turned out that we have a lot to dig into, that is, to look for some skeletons, but of course the most important thing is to look ahead, absolutely yes, i absolutely agree. it is necessary to build a new narrative, both polish and ukrainian, which is based on the truth. otherwise, who will build it?

rydzik, or someone else? or such a ukrainian radish. yes, i am afraid of it. cool, but how to build that narrative, because we understand that political elites want to rule, not engage in such matters, small, where money and influence are not involved. but that's what you and i are for, to offer other options for looking at polish history, polish modernity, and polish-ukrainian relations, that's what we're for. on the polish side , for a long time, there was such ignorance regarding the ukrainian subject, and here there is a great merit of gedroyc, because he showed both ukrainian perspectives and texts, and ukrainian texts, so... that shot revival was a beautiful book, and it was done by gedroyc.

we in poland had very little, we just started it was actually discovered only in the late 80s. but it is priceless, sixties, ukrainian writers, such as andruhovych, zhadan, historian hrytsak, zhadan, historian. we suddenly heard a completely different voice of ukraine, and it is a voice that fascinates, interests and commands respect, great respect. i agree, but you know what i am afraid of, the village does not listen to zhadana, the village listens to orban. you are right, but everything always starts with something, if you start by explaining to people in the province, in the villages, who was rudnytsky the fox?

competition between summers, tusk's proposal, for example, to a polish village, or zelensky's proposal to a ukrainian village and so on, but we will see in a few years, or maybe even earlier, orban's proposal to a polish village, orban is a friend of yaroslav kaczyński, the polish orban, he will be found, and not alone, and

he will be heard, the slovaks have already heard fizo, not other colossus, and this is a threat, very... it will be a problem, but it largely depends on us. who will take whom by force, by the force of thought, by the force of arguments and by the force of diligence? let's see. nothing is certain, for sure, but chances are we have, we have received enormous opportunities, quite, of course, these are tragic opportunities, because they were created by the war. putin's brutal attack on ukraine. but on the other hand, it showed the possibility and the polish reaction. i must say that i was impressed by the first spontaneous reaction of the polish society for refugees from ukraine, which i did not expect so much, it gives me some hope that it is possible otherwise. that the collective consciousness of poland

is not doomed to the traditional andean way of thinking. political realism, showing how to build then what was valuable there, for example, identity, but not on hostility towards others, not on the desire to dominate others, lithuanians, ukrainians or jews, that cannot be done, in any case, putin does not give us another chance, except like ours

it must be stopped. russia's greatest fear has always been polish-ukrainian understanding. we've been talking about it for almost half an hour now, but they've always been afraid of it. they were afraid in the 17th century, they were afraid in the 19th century, they were afraid in the 20s. i do not agree with this, because they were not so afraid of it, and even sooner light. and ukrainian is a corrupted russian, it did not occur to them that this could be serious, it was broken by pilsutsky, and he tried, but the story then turned out that

this deal with petliura did not work. if they were afraid of something, they were afraid that ukrainian and polish society could somehow come to an agreement with the western enemies of the russians, they were a little afraid of that.

a guy who is a kremlin enthusiast, he comes from the psl, to write something about the upa, no, it

was a moscow strategy to sow discord here, it was done deliberately. of course i do too i feel the influence of circles connected, perhaps with the kremlin, i no longer believe in useful idiots. but we also have a very powerful historical legislation, i don't know how to build polish-ukrainian understanding with historical arguments and discuss this legislation, these are also problems, it can be explosive, it will be, i agree, but the way to heaven is not strewn with trojan petals, it is also the thorns, i will walk on... this will be our great success of our time, this is a

polish-ukrainian union, gedroyc worked on it, he worked on it. many, these were his obsessions. he was actually the father of the wing of democratic positions in poland. he knew that the path of neglect or. negligence of ukraine is a road to nowhere, that poland, the polish elites, must firmly become a wall on the ukrainian side. i remember him when i came to kyiv in 1989 for the movement's congress. i say this, i understand that we are in the same team. it was said very firmly that polish solidarity is on your side. will

this or that advice be heard by those who decide and put their signatures on that or another piece of paper? fair reasoning, once again, once again and again, my beloved writer saveriy prushinsky wrote: a writer is all the more different from an actor or a publicist, the more he differs from an actor or a publicist, the more the actor is exposed, then that will be the end of him,

well, i want to our tv viewers to remind that adam michnik, a legendary polish journalist, the founder of

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