six months ago, we understand that the election campaign was going on in poland, but it is said that the cooperation between the ukrainian and polish governments was good, at a normal level. we may not like the bagpipes, i don't know, we may not like the pis, but at one time, when the great war began, the polish political elites , ruling at that time, showed their readiness to support and behaved extremely dignified, regarding the fact that...

and now we see a thaw in those political polish-ukrainian relations. president zelensky's last meeting with the prime minister donald tusk. we did not criticize the government in this case. i don't want to ascribe bad intentions, but the fact is that i had the impression that president zelensky adopted the rhetoric of peace, adopted the rhetoric of our president's bagpipes.

i remember a statement by yaroslav kaczyński, he was the main guru there, during poroshenko's presidency, that you will not enter the european union with bandera on the flags. poles are not the ones who can say such things to ukrainians in public, given your situation of the occupation of crimea. threats to independence and the fifth columns in donbass. poles should not talk like that. of course, there are questions, and we will return to them, but first of all, ukraine must win this war, and poland must help ukraine as much as possible, because it is actually in our interests, in polish interests. ukrainians protect not only themselves, they protect us and europe. and we must do everything to explain this to europe, that this is not a fad, but it is an element.

yes, but as you know, in order to realize something, you need to go a long way, that is, a lot different turns, many different moments we have to implement, and the signed polish-ukrainian security agreement is very important, but the most important thing is also the readiness and maturity of the political elites in ukraine and poland to consistently implement it. that we don't have a chance to correct any mistakes, because the war is going on, as it was defined in the kremlin, an existential war against ukraine and against nato, and of course against poland. perhaps now they are not ready to hit warsaw with a missile, but sooner or

later it may happen. that is, for today i do not see any direct threat, but it is obvious that in that imperial logic there is a return to great russian imperialism, as one classic said, to that imperial pride of great russia, on the one hand, and on the other hand to stalin's rhetoric and stalin's methods.

this is the maximum offered by the kremlin leaders, it is finlandization, but this is the first stage, after finlandization, it is time for the soviet kerelo-finnish republic. such is the logic of that imperialism, and this is the same turning point as in the 1930s, the struggle fascism and anti-fascism, and again there were many unpleasant things from the anti-fascist side.

everything is the same, today there are still many things that can be pointed out to democratic countries, spain has a problem with catalonia, in italy the prime minister is a post-fascist, in france, in germany there are also their own issues, scotland, obviously, on this side we have viktor orbán, a very dangerous figure, very dangerous, because he behaves as if he were putin's envoy.

do we agree to a totalitarian system or a semi-totalitarian, quasi-totalitarian, na anti-democratic dictatorship? and such a project actually exists in every european country and not only in europe. for example, to bolsonaro and others, so if we are talking about ukraine, this is, in my opinion, the most important moment in the history of ukraine from the beginning of its existence. in fact, ukraine has already won this war, already won, if putin is not able to break the ukrainian opera in two years, i thought he would do

it in a week. this is a vivid manifestation of what the ukrainian people want, we will talk about the problems later, when ukraine. and the most important thing is the readiness of the ruling mouths in poland, the same tusk, go to the end. tusk is going far, but the most important thing is the demonstration of maturity by the political elites, and maturity means responsibility, right? in the understanding that we have today, of course, he is deeply convinced that the cause of ukraine is the cause of poland.

in this sense, i think he has a lot of that maturity, but of course there are elements of the elites who have a different opinion, who believe that ukraine is not our business. that this is characteristic of russia and that we do not get involved in it, and russian-ukrainian conflict needs to maintain a certain neutrality. that the body is essentially right, because what is the interest of the poles

in interfering in a war that russia is likely to win anyway. this is a return to history, which should be negotiated, not carried out. there is a lot of this in poland, it is currently suppressed, and the first conflict will be during the presidential elections. in general, there are reasons for optimism, because it is not completely victorious, but tusk is doing well with that situation. it is obvious that he has a lot of resistance, runs into resistance. which one looks like no matter who wins, the dog will rule anyway. it will not be like that, but this is a conflict, a very acute conflict, which will not necessarily be read from the outside,

within the framework of this conflict, the topic of ukraine is also important, correct, that is, the confederation, they say directly, ukraine is not our business, it is not our business, sometimes they speak louder and sometimes more quietly, they don't say it very much.

but yes, they like putin, so there will be problems here, but if we look at the longer term, it becomes obvious that a chance for poland is ukraine's victory, if in poland they say that ukraine 's victory has... well, there will be time to negotiate, but it is better than living under the kremlin's shobut. this is true, i completely agree, but in due time.

this is a country, so says my experience, where everything is possible, even changes for the better. who can succeed in everything, you have to believe in it, you have to be an optimist, you can't be a pessimist, go forward with your head turned back, you have to to be an optimist, i believe that we will succeed in something, because we have already succeeded in several things, because in 1988, no one in poland believed that

we would overthrow the dictatorship without a single broken window. ukrainian and polish to master these therefore, it is a matter of responsibility and efforts of our right-wingers, let them be right-wing, please, but let it be like the british conservatives

or the german christian democrats, let it be so. that we need a world revolution, and without that nothing will happen, not the left who say give money to everyone in need, let it there will be leftists who recognize the right to

compromise, recognize the right to compromise.

this is complete idiocy, cynicism and rudeness, but it was also like that, that is, i love poland very much, but this is true love, because it is without illusions. i realize how much still needs to be done in poland, and these eight years brutally showed it.

you talk about poland in such a way that sometimes i transfer it to ukraine, that we are innocent, that our mykola gogol was only a good writer and person, but he was also an imperial tool, but he was a great writer, here is taras bulba, what was taras bulba about? and we understand that it was written after the uprising, which the russians simply destroyed. gogol walked like a good angel of the orthodox world, praised the white king and so on. and all this was on corpses, but dead souls are a masterpiece. it is only about the fact that we in ukraine should be critical of our past as well.

that the political elites want to rule, and not how to build that narrative, because we understand how to deal with such small matters where money and influence are not involved. but we are for that there is, you and i, to offer to others.

and this was done by gedroyc, we in poland had very little of it, we only really started to discover it only at the end of the 80s, but it is priceless, the sixties, ukrainian writers such as andruhovych, zhadan, historian hrytsak, we suddenly heard a completely different the voice of ukraine. and it is a voice that fascinates, interests and commands respect, great respect. i agree, but you know what i am afraid of, the village

does not listen to zhadana, the village listens to orban. you are right, but everything always starts with something. if you start by explaining to people in provinces, in the villages, who was rudnytskyi the fox? that's why everything always starts with the elites. yes, but now what we have is a competition between summers. tusk's proposal, for example, to a polish

village, or zelenskyi's proposal to a ukrainian village, and so on. but we will see in a few years, or maybe even sooner, orban's proposal to the polish village. orban, a friend of yaroslav kaczyński. polish orban, he will be found, and not alone. and he will be heard, the slovaks have already heard fico, no one else, and this is a threat. it will be a problem, but it is a significant one depends on us. who will take whom by force, by the force of thought, by the force of arguments and by the force of hard work. let's see. nothing is known, for sure, but we have chances, we have received enormous opportunities from quite a few, of course, this is tragic. i must

say that i was impressed by the first spontaneous reaction of the polish society for refugees from ukraine, which i did not expect so much, it gives me some hope that it is possible otherwise. that the collective consciousness of poland is not doomed to the traditional andean way of thinking. showing how to build an identity, but not on hostility towards others, not on the desire to dominate others, lithuanians, ukrainians or jews, that cannot be done, in any case, putin does not give us another chance, except for our central european integration,

but how far will putin go, that is he said openly: an existential war. he will go as far as we will let him. it needs to be stopped, if you don't stop it, it will be like a bicycle, if you don't stop it, it will keep going, you have to stop it. i do not agree with this, because not so much they were afraid of it, and even rather took it lightly , they believed in fact that there was no

ukraine. endets public opinion did not want war, and therefore restrained the defendant in essence. but the russians were not afraid of that, they then had the ideology of internationalism, bolshevism, estates away, grab loot and so on.

if they were afraid of something, they were afraid.